|WikiProject Music theory||(Rated Start-class)|
- 1 Lydian Dominant Theory
- 2 Lydian as a replacement for Ionian
- 3 Norwegian Wood is not Lydian
- 4 Project for Mode Articles: Standardization and Consolidation
- 5 Famous Songs
- 6 Dissonant fourth
- 7 Blue Jay Way
- 8 Explanation of changes just made.
- 9 Lydian Dominant and the Harmonic Series
- 10 Well-known music in this mode
- 11 Non-Lydian Songs in List
- 12 Too many examples
- 13 Additional citations?
Lydian Dominant Theory
It strikes me that it might be worth mentioning the Lydian dominant theory of harmony i.e. that the harmonic overtones of C contain the #4 and b7 being F# and Bb respectively. See:
[New post: previous post was not signed, so does not conclude clearly:] This belongs in an article on the Lydian Dominant or on synthetic scales, not one on the Lydian mode. Despite the Lydian Dominant's name and partial resemblance to the Lydian mode, it is not a mode as usually understood in this context, and really has nothing to do with the modal scale system. I think it is valid to mention the Lydian Dominant in a Lydian mode article as another scale that has points of resemblance to the Lydian mode; but I don't think it is valid to go into further detail there about the Lydian Dominant. M.J.E. 02:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Lydian as a replacement for Ionian
It could also be pointed out that the lydian is often used in jazz music as a replacement for the Ionian mode or major key due to the #4 being preferable to the dissonance of the 4 in a major tonality.
Norwegian Wood is not Lydian
Norwegian Wood is written in E and emphasizes a flattened seventh (D natural), making it Mixolydian and not Lydian. The bridge implies Aeolian, or natural minor. If the song were in Lydian, there would be an emphasis on A sharp, which there isn't. Therefore, I am going to delete Norwegian Wood.
Project for Mode Articles: Standardization and Consolidation
The mode articles are a mess when taken together. The articles need to be standardized and some of the general information consolidated into the Musical mode article and removed from all the articles about specific modes.
a few specific propositions:
- I think all the mode articles should have corresponding information in corresponding sections. For example, the intervals that define the mode should be given at say, somewhere near the top of the article in a section called "intervals" or something (whatever, as long as its standard for all articles and maximally descriptive). Also things like if the scale is "symmetric" or "asymmetiric" or whether its a "minor" or "major" scale should be all in one place (perhaps a table would be best for these things).
Information about modes in general
- All information that is about modes in general (i.e. applies to all modes) should be moved to the Musical mode article, and not mentioned in the articles about specific modes (all articles should of course be linked to the general Musical mode article). Information about idiosyncratic properties of the modes then will be easier to find that way, and there will be no confused and redundant info (sorta like this paragraph).
Greek vs. modern terminology confusion'
- Information about the confusion between the greek and modern terminology should stay in the Musical mode article, with a note at the top of each article--out of the main body--highlighting the terminology confusion (to eschew obfuscation). Perhaps there should be serperate disambiguable articles for the greek modes e.g. a article for Ionian (Greek Mode) and Ionian (Gregorian Mode).
avoiding articl style divergence with later editors not privy to the standardization project
- As time passes, people who don't know about the effort to standardize the article no doubt will add information to the article in their own style, perhaps causing the articles to diverge in style over time. To avoid this, we can make a template to go at the top of each talk page that tells editors to keep in mind the style standardization (perhaps a project page--"metawiki pages" I think they are called--with a template and style explanation). Although this may not be that much of a problem, if the style is obvious and is suffieciently elegant to begin with.
Am I getting across the idea here? What do you guys think about such a project? I know there is a way to set up a wikiproject for this sort of thing, but I've never done it before. I'll look into how to do it. Any other ideas on how to make the articles fit better together? Any objections or improvements to the above suggestions? Brentt 09:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
- PS please respond and discuss at the Musical mode talk page
The study of interval dissonance says that the perfect 4th is consonant, but this article says it is dissonant. Any clarification?? Georgia guy 17:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- A lot of "common practice" texts say a perfect fourth above the root of a chord is "dissonant", because it should resolve to a chord in root position, but an augmented fourth is definitely more dissonant, not less. I removed the offending sentence. —Keenan Pepper 20:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Blue Jay Way
This song is not lydian - it has a raised second. It is derived from a raga (which one?)
Explanation of changes just made.
Three points I've just changed about this article:
1. I changed the tonic chord citation for the Lydian mode from "major seventh" to "major triad". If we wanted to be really pedantic about this, we could say that the concept of a tonic chord was historically much less strong than it later became in major/minor music which departed from the mediaeval modal system. But we must allow for the modern use of modes, and, in that case at least, tonic chords are relevant, thanks to being borrowed from major and minor keys. But it would certainly be more relevant to cite the Lydian mode's tonic chord as a major triad, just as it would be if it were a standard major key - not a major 7th. While composers are free to choose any chord they like based on the tonic note and treat it as if it were a tonic chord, for standard reference it would surely be more accurate to regard the triad alone as the tonic chord, not the 7th chord.
2. I disagree with the statement that the theme from "The Simpsons" is not truly in the Lydian mode, but rather in the Lydian dominant - so I removed the comment saying this, and added the theme to the list of pieces. I heard the theme not too long ago, and I heard no signs of the minor 7th degree of the scale that would have to be present in the theme for this to be true. I didn't hear a *major* 7th degree anywhere in the melody or harmony, either - but the *minor* 7th would actually have to be present to establish the Lydian Dominant scale, since it is a vital scale degree to distinguish the Lydian Dominant scale from the ordinary Lydian mode - the mere absence of the *major* 7th is not sufficient to establish this. (I added a bit more to the immediately following section about the Lydian Dominant, pointing out that, while it has resemblances to both the Lydian and Mixolydian modes (equally), it is not really a part of the modal system of scales at all.)
3. I removed this passage:
* "Gymnopédie No. 1" by Erik Satie; contrary to what was previously mentioned here, is not in G Lydian. The root note is D, even though the piece starts with a G, and it is therefore in D Ionian.
While I agree that Gymnopédie No. 1 is not in the Lydian mode, despite the superficial impression given by the opening major 7th chord on G, I think it would be better to just remove this from the list of pieces in the Lydian mode, rather than keep it and point out that an earlier comment on the page which is no longer current is inaccurate. In addition, the comment is not fully accurate anyway, because this piece does change modes a few times, and it is only true to say that the piece begins in D Ionian - not that it is in D Ionian as a whole. (It actually ends in D Dorian.) M.J.E. 18:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- I might amend my statement above concerning the theme from "The Simpsons". After I changed the article to suggest that the theme was in the Lydian mode instead of the Lydian dominant scale, I kept coming across references in other articles to the theme being in the Lydian dominant scale, instead of the Lydian mode. I thought this called for closer examination, so I found a sound file of the theme on the Internet, and I have listened to it more closely.
- The theme moves through a great many keys very quickly, and also uses various scales, most of them fairly briefly. I think a case could be made that these are just chromatic harmony in the midst of fast modulations, rather than examples of music in various particular scales or modes.
- If we are talking about the opening of the theme, I still stand by my statement that this is in the Lydian mode rather than the Lydian dominant scale: it starts in C major, and there are a number of prominent F-sharps and no Bs at all (either flat or natural) for the time being. Until a B of some kind appears, the presumption would probably be that, if a B occurred, it would be natural. But it would actually take an occurring B-flat to establish the Lydian dominant scale.
- I suspect (but cannot hear quite clearly) that, in that rising phrase where "Simpsons" is sung, the F-sharp to G progression in the upper part also has a D-sharp to E progression underneath it, so that there is a movement in parallel minor 3rds - which probably dilutes the Lydian feel to some extent - although, in spite of this, there is still a reasonably strong Lydian feel to it for several bars.
- Then, a little later, a B-flat seems to appear very briefly before the key changes to a synthetic scale based on the note B - but I would contend that this is really an A-sharp, not a B-flat, and it is part of a modulation to the new key - not a sign of the music moving into the Lydian dominant scale. The implied progression would be from A-sharp to B (the root of the following harmony).
- However, I can see why some people might think it indicates the Lydian dominant scale, but I have to disagree. But there are also several brief passages later in the theme where the music does appear to be briefly in the Lydian dominant scale, and these strike me as less ambiguous. So perhaps I was a little hasty in removing references to the Lydian dominant scale. I will amend the article to take account of both the Lydian mode and the Lydian dominant scale being present in the theme. I will also check whether I spoke about this in one or two other articles too, and change those too, if necessary. M.J.E. (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- Slightly belatedly after my most recent edit of the Lydian mode page, I might just explain the removal from this article of comments about the Lydian dominant scale, in case some readers notice that the comments are gone, and wonder why.
- The material was removed in two main stages. First, another editor felt that some of the comments didn't belong to an article on the Lydian mode, so transferred them to this talk page. However, this renders them not part of the encyclopaedia at all. I agree that they don't really belong to the Lydian mode page, and feel that mentioning the Lydian dominant as being regarded by some as related to the Lydian mode (and mentioning it in connection with "The Simpsons" theme) is quite sufficient mention of it here. Accordingly, I excised a little more.
- However, most of the removed content has not been deleted; rather, I moved most of the comments on the Lydian dominant scale to the article of that name, rewording them to properly incorporate them into the article and to avoid repeating certain points.
- A few comments were in fact completely removed: namely, those which relate the Lydian dominant scale to the harmonic series, and to brass instrument technique in a way that didn't seem all that clear. I did this because I think the relationship between these topics is tenuous, or at least that the comments greatly oversimplified the relationship.
- The main problem with linking the Lydian dominant scale to the harmonic series is that the harmonic series is only notationally similar to the Lydian dominant scale, but some of the actual notes are a significant proportion of a semitone different because of different types of temperament. It is thus an oversimplification and an approximation to suggest that the Lydian dominant scale is derived from the harmonic series. So it doesn't seem all that useful to try to relate the Lydian dominant scale, which is usually found in a context of equal temperament, to the harmonic series, which is inherently based on just intonation.
- Also, while the harmonic series is involved in brass instrument technique, this would be better treated in more detail on articles relating to brass instruments (and very likely is - I haven't looked into that), and really has no relevance to the Lydian dominant scale. M.J.E. (talk) 09:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Lydian Dominant and the Harmonic Series
Regarding this paragraph:
A scale sometimes regarded as related to the Lydian mode is sometimes called the Lydian Dominant Mode, the fourth mode of the melodic minor scale, and is contained within the natural overtones or harmonics produced by a single note. If you play a single sustained low C on a piano you may be able to hear a few overtones. In order from lowest to highest these tones are approximately C G C E G Bb C D E F# G A Bb B C (producing, in C major the I, V, I, III, V, bVII, I, II, III, #IV, V, VI, bVII, VII and I). (The notes Bb and F# are slightly different in the overtone series from the notes we would hear in the equal-tempered tuning system in common use today.) You may notice that F# and Bb are contained within the Lydian Dominant Mode (as the sharpened fourth and flattened seventh respectively). The overtone series is actually the manner in which brass instruments (among others) play different pitches. The scale can just as easily be regarded as a relative of the Mixolydian mode as of the Lydian mode. Despite the resemblances to both modes, it is in fact not at all a part of the modal system of harmony as usually regarded, but is instead an example of a synthetic scale.
I've moved most of this paragraph here because it seems misleading at best. The idea that Lydian Dominant "is contained within" the harmonic series, or even "approximates" it, seems wrong to me (there are several pages that describe the harmonic series, see Harmonic series (music), Harmonic, and Overtone). First, the notes of the harmonic series are an example of Just intonation -- in regular 12-tone Equal temperament only the octaves are the same. Some of the harmonics are approximated quite well in equal temperament, others not at all. The overtones are listed above as C G C E G Bb C D E F# G A Bb B C. Even with the word "approximate" in there, the 7th partial Bb is a stretch, being nearly a third of a semitone flatter than an equal tempered Bb (see Harmonic seventh#The Harmonic Seventh. The 11th harmonic is called an F# here, but elsewhere is usually called a Gb. Either way it is a quarter tone off, falling almost exactly in between F# and G.The lydian F# is much more logically 45:32 -- two justly-tuned perfect fifths plus a major third (eg, C G D F#), or simply three whole steps (see Tritone). Another problem is that the list says the harmonic series continues: F# G A Bb B C. But the A here, the 13th partial, 13:8, falls between Ab and A. It is 41-cent sharp Ab. From C is it far easier to make an A by going down a minor third than up to the 13th harmonic! (these intervals are listed at List of musical intervals)
In other words, I'm skeptical about a connection between Lydian Dominant and the Harmonic Series. The F# and Bb are key to this interpretation, and neither are well approximated in equal temperament. Also the comment about brass instruments seems misleading. Yes they make use of the overtones of the harmonic series, but they have valves and keys in order to play in equal temperament. It seems unlikely that you could even overblow to the 13th partial.
The final comment about the mixolydian mode seems more on the mark. Mathieu, in his book Harmonic Experience, uses the term "Mix/Lyd" for Lydian Dominant -- meaning the scale's first 4 notes are lydian and its second 4 notes to the octave are mixolydian.
I agree that discussion of the Lydian Dominant doesn't belong in an article about the Lydian mode; but, if it belongs at all in an encyclopaedia, it doesn't belong in the Talk section either. It probably belongs in an article about the Lydian Dominant, which doesn't exist yet. I could create a stub for it, probably not much more, though - I'll consider it. Some of the comments about the overtone series and brass instruments probably belong in articles on those topics, perhaps on temperament too. To do that is probably beyond my knowledge, though.
As for the dubious connection between the Lydian Dominant scale and the overtone series: I must assume you're right, since I don't have this level of technical knowledge of the overtone series. But in that case many books are just as misleading when they name the harmonic series as containing the notes Bb, F#, and A (sometimes with little indication of how much they are mere approximations) - to say nothing of the various commentators who have said that many of the chords in Scriabin's system of harmony based (loosely) on his Mystic chord use the upper partials of the harmonic series, sometimes with no mention of how approximate this is, and often with no explanation of why any supposed resemblance to the harmonic series is relevant or important. It is probably just as well not to make a big deal of any resemblance of harmonic systems or scales to the harmonic series, unless they do in fact follow the harmonic series exactly, in the same kind of temperament. M.J.E. (talk) 14:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- It was explained to me (LONG ago, and I can barely remember) that the term "lydian dominant" refers to the 2 "tetrachords" that make-up the scale (from tonic to octave). And my understanding of "tetrachord" was basically a run of 4 notes. The intervals between these notes/tones defines the tetrachord. Three whole-note intervals is a "lydian" tetrachord. IDK what the dominant one is... now I'm getting curious! Let me think... oh whatever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 888Xristos (talk • contribs) 04:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Well-known music in this mode
I plan on deleting any unsourced entries from this in a few weeks. (Listening to a piece and trying to figure out the key is not a source, and is also WP:OR.) Torc2 (talk) 08:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Do what you have to, I guess... I don't know how to properly add it, but I think "Jane Says" has (modern) Lydian modality. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Non-Lydian Songs in List
Several of these songs are not in the Lydian mode from what I can tell: Eden - Hooverphonic, Elation Station - Infected Mushroom, Stars - Switchfoot (maybe just one or two sharpened fourths in the intro?), etc. others also have only a small section in Lydian which should also be noted. I also agree sources are needed for these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 06:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Too many examples
- no. we should have a few notable examples with reliable sources that at least support listing them under this mode. —Chris Capoccia T⁄C 21:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
It appears to me that the banner stating "This article needs additional citations for verification" is now out of date. Are there any statements remaining that still require citations?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)