Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 5
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The Unanswered Questions
Adam, I'd like to get your response to the recently posted Partial List of false and downright bizarre assertions in the present version, as well as the Significant Omissions from the current version. --Herschelkrustofsky 23:02, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Googling vs. Research
Adam and Andy continually attempt to rig the debate by insisting that any source they prefer, such as the thoroughly disreputable Dennis King, must be accepted as gospel, whereas any source associated with LaRouche is automatically excluded, in their world. They further insist that press coverage of LaRouche must be available on the internet, or else be barred from discussion. Then, press coverage that acknowledges LaRouche's influence, which in the English-speaking world usually consists of outbursts of rage from his opponents (see the Wall Street Journal article on LaRouche's expose of Leo Strauss, or the National Review's article on LaRouche's expose of the disinformation center in the Pentagon, called the Office of Special Plans) -- must also be discounted, in Adam and Andy's world. Foreign press coverage of LaRouche is often not on the web, or unseachable (unless you know how to spell LaRouche's name in Russian, Chinese or Arabic), and is therefore also ruled out. And ironically enough, Google's News Search regularly includes articles from the LaRouche-founded publication Executive Intelligence Review -- but the last place you would seek a truthful characterization of LaRouche's ideas, is from the horse's mouth. Adam and Andy show a marked preference for the opposite end of the horse. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:11, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Herschell, it's not unreasonable to ask for a second source to back something up. Unfortunately there are no second sources to back up any LaRouche claims. The Eurasian Land-Bridge, which you claim is different from the Asian Highway would presumably be one of the biggest megaprojects the world has seen. Why then do none of the governments involved mention it? Why does it not have a website? Why do the engineering firms involved with it make no reference to it? Why is there no mention of it say in the Economist or BBC News or any engineering journals? You claim it is known as the "New Silk Road" yet, according to BBC News, that is the nickname of the Asian Highway. You claim a case involving LaRouche is an important precedent with regards to the Voting Rights Act. If that's the case cite a law journal that discusses the importance. If these major world historical events and projects you associate with LaRouche truly involve him you should be able to find independent sources but you can't. Does that not tell you anything? But please, on the Eurasian Land Bridge. Give us one source not associated with LaRouche. Just one. AndyL
- It is odd that you ask for confirmation from either the BBC news, which speaks for the British government, or the Economist, which speaks for the City (i.e., the London banking establishment.) If you read my article at Lyndon LaRouche/draft, you may recall this passage:
- In May of 1996, LaRouche's wife Helga Zepp-LaRouche presented the Eurasian Land-Bridge proposal at a conference sponsored by the Government of the People's Republic of China, in a debate format with British member of the European Commission, Sir Leon Brittan, who opposed it. The proposal was subsequently adopted, and is presently under construction, by the PRC and neighboring nations.
- Of course, you may ignore the link to Eurasian Land-Bridge, because you deleted the article. I also note that you are now asserting, in your re-write of the Asian Highway article, that the Asian Highway is also known as the Eurasian Land Bridge, which is untrue, and a rather obvious little propagandistic flourish on your part. My point, however, is this: why would you expect honest coverage, by the British establishment, of a project by which they are, shall we say, not amused? You should read the article at Geopolitics, which is a stub; I could expand it, but until we get some arbitration, you will automatically delete anything I write, outside of this talk page.
- There is no "official website" for the Landbridge, because it is not administered by one private corporation (to the chagrin of the Brits), but rather as a cooperative effort by an assortment of soveriegn nations. Otherwise, there are plenty of articles from Xinhua and other press agencies that cite the role of LaRouche and his wife. However, you can't Google them, which is precisely the point of the post to which you are responding. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:51, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Postscript: back in Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive3, Andy was insisting that any report from the Washington Post or kindred publication must be regarded as credible, since they have not been successfully sued for libel. If you make this argument, then you must extend that courtesy to all of the LaRouche-affiliated publications as well. They have never been sued for libel, despite the fact that their meager financial resources, and LaRouche's pariah status, would make them especially vulnerable to such suits. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:04, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- The onus is on you to cite these "many" articles, I'm afraid. Oh, and why can't we view them, as we could any other article on Xinhua's website? Ambivalenthysteria 14:57, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Sept 19, 2003 -- A lengthy article on Lyndon LaRouche by Ding Yifan was published in the influential Beijing-based Guangming Daily and the Xinhua News Agency.
- April 3, 2003 -- Richard Dallyn interviewed Lyndon LaRouche on, ironically enough, BBC's Five Live show on Wednesday, April 2nd. It was aired on the international news show which played from 1 am to 5 am.
- Jan 3, 2003 -- Dubai, UAE: Al-Bayan published an article by Lyndon LaRouche entitled "The Year To Come" together with an article by Hussein Askary on History as Tragedy in its New Year's political supplement. The online version of Askary's article is accompanied with a photo of a starving African family; the hard copy has the map of the Eurasian Land-Bridge.
- Aug 15, 2002 -- Skopje, Macedonia: A new political magazine, called Manifest has been launched which carries an interview with Lyndon LaRouche as its cover story. Many of the articles cover LaRouche's strategic and economic analysis, as well as his program for a New Bretton Woods monetary system and the Eurasian Landbridge.
- June 5, 2002 -- Ankara, Turkey: YARIN, the top political magazine in Turkey, interviewed Lyndon LaRouche in its June issue. The issue is so popular that it was sold out and rushed to a second printing. It was also picked up by the Turkish dailies, and posted on their websites.
- May 7, 2002 -- Seoul, South Korea: Lyndon LaRouche interviewed by Chang Dae-Hwan in the Maeil Business News. The interview covered his program for the New Silk Road and Korea's role in this as the "Asian Hub" for Pacific transport and trade.
- Apr 5, 2002 -- MKTV, the main Macedonian TV station ran a one hour interview with Lyndon LaRouche. The theme of the interview was 'A mass movement is gathering around LaRouche to rebuild the world.' The interview is scheduled to be rebroadcast on Apr 8th on MKTV and a second TV station, Citel TV.
- Dec 28, 2001 -- The India Post, which circulates internationally, covered the LaRouche's recent trip to India. The article was short and very accurate, among other things covering the fact that LaRouche was in India to participate in a seminar: "Growing Global Crisis: The World Needs A New Monetary System."
- Dec 28, 2001 -- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia: The New Straits Times carried a prominent interview with Dr. Kassim Ahmad covering his long history in influencing Malaysian politics and culture. Dr. Ahmad referenced Lyndon LaRouche as one of the writers who has influenced his life and as an example of someone whom he would not judge without first carefully reading his biography and writings.
- These are just a few highlights. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:39, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- And you've read these articles yourself, have you? Or have you only seen references to them in LaRouche publications?20:19, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Is that you, Andy? Boy, you're insatiable. You ask for "one, just one" citation, I give you nine, and now you want to know whether I've read them all. The answer is yes, I have, when there are English language transcripts available. I have not seen the TV interviews. A complete list, with English transcripts, is available here. --Herschelkrustofsky 22:56, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I have already stated my view on this. It is impossible to accept any statement by LaRouche or from any LaRouche source as true unless it is independently verified, given the proved record for dishonesty of both LaRouche and his followers (including Krusty). I agree that King has his deficiencies as a source, but I have yet to see any charge of dishonesty against him proved. Adam 03:35, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
For those of you just joining us
On June 20, 2004, User:Adam_Carr took it upon himself to delete the long-standing Wikipedia article on Lyndon LaRouche (which may be viewed here), and substitute a new one. I recognized the material in the new article as being entired drawn from one source, an obscure book by poison-pen-for-hire Dennis King entitled Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism. When I called him on it, Adam admitted that his article was drawn entirely from this source. King's book was sponsored by the neoconservative Smith-Richardson Foundation, and relies on the "straw man" technique of carefully avoiding any discussion of LaRouche's actual policies and ideas, while asserting that LaRouche uses a code language to secretly convey a message of anti-Semitism.
Adam has announced his intention to respond to any efforts to edit his article, by embarking on revert wars. He apparently has a history of this (see Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/archive4#Page_protection, and refers to this approach as his "robust tactics." The article was protected by Wikipedia administrators on June 21. When the article was unprotected on June 30, Adam reverted my edit (which I invite 3rd parties to inspect, at the relevant history page), without comment. I have written a third, alternative article on LaRouche, which is available at Lyndon LaRouche/draft. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:49, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Meanwhile, in the non-LaRouchie universe, this is what happened:
- The first version of the article was pure LaRouche propaganda, full of blatant lies and total inventions (such as the Eurasian Land-Bridge, see above), so I rewrote it.
- I used as my principal source King's book, which is the only LaRouche biography in existence. While it is not an academic biography, and has the deficiencies of a book written to prove a case (that LaRouche is a fascist), it is nevertheless adequate, and gives standard citations for most (though not all) of its attributions. I am not aware that the factual accuracy of King's citations have been challenged by any non-LaRouche writer. If King's book cannot be used to write a LaRouche biographical article, then so such article can be written, because there is no other account from a non-LaRouche source.
- I also used various online sources (with due caution) and the Washington Post account of LaRouche's trial and conviction.
- Who funded King to write the book is completely irrelevant. Most academic books are funded by someone.
- Krusty did not "call me" on using King, and I did not "admit" it (these are standard LaRouche polemical distortions).
- King does indeed "assert that LaRouche uses a code language to secretly convey a message of anti-Semitism," and I think he is correct, at least when talking about the 1970s, but my article gives due credit to what appears to be LaRouche's recent shift of position on matters Jewish.
- I did not "announce my intention to respond to any efforts to edit my article by embarking on revert wars." I said I would revert attempts by Krusty to re-insert LaRouche propaganda in the article, as I have done and will continue to do. This was why I reverted Krusty's edit after the page was unprotected.
- Readers of this controversy need to understand that Krusty is obviously a LaRouche activist of some seniority: he says himself he remembers things LaRouche said in 1978. Given the nature of the LaRouche cult, everything Krusty says and does here must be seen as LaRouche propaganda. It can no more be taken as true than what a neo-Nazi would say at Adolf Hitler or what User:Hanpuk says at Khmer Rouge. Krusty is not interested in writing an encyclopaedia article, he is interested in protecting the LaRouche cult's view of itself and particularly the fantasy biography that LaRouche has spent 30 years creating around himself.
- It is of course true that I and others editing here are hostile to LaRouche. But there is no equivalence between that hostility to LaRouche and Krusty's support for LaRouche. I and others are trying to write an encyclopaedia article, as objectively as is humanly possible and using the available, admittedly inadequate, sources. Krusty is merely acting as a mouthpiece for the LaRouche cult.
- Krusty complains that "Adam and Andy continually attempt to rig the debate by insisting that any source they prefer, such as the thoroughly disreputable Dennis King, must be accepted as gospel, whereas any source associated with LaRouche is automatically excluded, in their world." In a sense this is true, for reasons I have already stated. Material from LaRouche sources is always propaganda, and often untrue. Since truth cannot be separated from myth in LaRouche propaganda, it must all be excluded unless it can be verified from independent sources. The anti-LaRouche material is of varying quality, and must be assessed critically in the way any historian is trained to do, but if it is properly referenced it can be used unless shown from an independent (ie, non-LaRouche) source to be false. This may seem unfair on Krusty, but it is the price he pays for choosing to become an acolyte of a proved liar, slanderer and fabulist like LaRouche. Adam 01:05, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I'm sure I could go to a lot of countries issue a few media releases and convince a few gullible reporters to interview me because I say I'm important but if the megaproject I'm talking about is real there should be some sort of documentation to prove its existence somewhere. AndyL 14:51, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
":* April 3, 2003 -- Richard Dallyn interviewed Lyndon LaRouche on, ironically enough, BBC's Five Live show on Wednesday, April 2nd. It was aired on the international news show which played from 1 am to 5 am."
Herschell, even the LaRouche account of this interview posted here makes NO MENTION WHATSOEVER of this land-bridge yet you post it here as "evidence" of an independent source for the land bridge. This does not bode well for the rest of your "evidence" or for your credibility. Why did you post it here? Were you just trying to bamboozle us into thinking there was more (or even anything) in the mainstream media about this land bridge than there actually was. I'm very disappointed in you Herschell, it seems you've tried to trick us here. AndyL 14:56, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
OK, let's see all of these articles come from this site and accompanying pages.
The link to this article is incorrect so I can't check LaRouche's version of it.
no mention of the land bridge (see earlier post above)
Summary of article (full article not provided) states "The rest of the article describes the solution to this situation through the ideas of LaRouche and his dual war-avoidance strategy of the New Bretton Woods system and the Eurasian Land-Bridge." Again, the only evidence of the land bridge is LaRouche's say-so. No independent verfication.
fleeting mention as follows as part of a question asked to LaRouche "if the "LaRouche recipe" -- the New Bretton Woods and the Land Bridge projects -- were to become US policy and were endorsed by a coalition of countries in the world, how fast and how directly could this change the [Macedonian] situation for the positive. Can you explain how this mechanism would work?" LaRouche's reply doesn't mention the land bridge. I don't see why the mention of a land bridge proposal in an interviewer's question can be seen as evidence of anything.
Great Herschell, it looked kind of impressive at first but further investigation shows you've provided us with bupkiss, nada, nothing.
Most of your sources make no mention of the landbridge, the ones who do do so provide no evidence other than LaRouche's say so. Again, can you give us some independent articles from say one of the governments involved or an engineering journal or something which talks about the land bridge as an actual thing and not a mere claim by LaRouche? Are there no engineering surveys of the project? No detailed studies? No references by government departments? AndyL 15:11, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Conspicuously missing . . .
Under the heading 'economic views, towards the end, it is interesting that corporatist economic connection was made regarding Franco and Salazar, but not Hitler and Mussolini. Why?!?! Mussolini pioneered this. And don't get me started about the Italian fascist MSI and LaRouche's MSI!
More about LaRouche's ideas There was a time that much of what was on this page had been written by myself and one other, prior to the first add ins by Krusty that Andy later threw out. Overall, the article that exists is pretty good. His declared Platonism as opposed to Strauss's Platonism is missing though. Krusty will probably agree that these things should be in here. However, the reason I think they should be in there is because I trust the readers to read through all this and see LaRouche for what he is: an ineffective small time swindler ala the music man. Krusty would not agree. However, Krusty is obviously a LaRouchie - he even tries to write in a style identical to the Steinbergs - a couple analogous historically to Ayn Rand's loyal favorite couple in her own ineffective small time cult-racket. Are things I'm saying right now POV? Damn straight - this is the chat area. Here we can speak truth the way we see it. . . Most notable was Krusty's complete and total ignorance of the Socialist Worker's Party, LaRouche's role in it, LaRouche being a Marxist for many years, and this ignorance is something I see across the whole terrain of LaRouchie's I've met, particularly here in the Los Angeles area where they attempt to recruit the unwitting at LACC and other locations.. The problem is that the LaRouche group IS a cult using any meaningfull or helpful definition of the word. His supporters ARE brainwashed, really anything they say is going to have many problems as it is regurgitated crap from their Duce. Students who are in college ARE TOLD to drop out of college AT college BY LaRouche people AT college. They are TOLD that friends outside the group should be kept at arms length if not forgotten completely. This must be included in the article. It is crucial! Let the readers decide for themselves if LaRouche is a demogic cultist neo-platonic 'new-school' fascist - once they are provided with all the facts. The LaRouchies will admit this if you ask them, though they will have their obvious rationalizations of it - but a fact's a fact - they will admit it. In my opinion, you have let Krusty control way too much of this content. LaRouchies almost invariably had no real history of political activism or education prior to becoming a LaRouchie. This is how the Potemkin Village they live in is effected. LaRouchies will blatantly lie or omit information that is suitable to their needs in one context, in one conversation, and in the very next conversation days or moments later, contradict it all. I know they have been trained in conversational and debate methods - methods which have no place in an honest discourse - methods which are aimed at bending reality around the argument - if you can call it an argument at all. One look at a LaRouche pamphlet reveals an endless stream of disconnected, disjointed, factually inaccurate mumbo-jumbo which preys upon the socially inept or psychologically prone (to join a cult, often the young) people. His anal-fecal fixation and fixation on 'filth' 'decadence' 'satanism' and 'zionist-masonic orders' and other conspiratorial cabals should send the alert bells ringing to any politically seasoned citizen. The very structure of the grammar - intentionally meant to be headache-y, the repeated use of esoteric terms at different times in different contexts, is meant to effect a series of mental images in the mind of the reader which render them most confused but yet forced to gape in awe and wonder at the word-smithing. Feeling that they don't understand what it is they are reading, they are compelled to ask the person who gave them the pamphlet what this or that means. This person has just allowed themselves to be schooled and the LaRouchie has the upper hand. Only the LaRouchie can properly understand what LaRouche is saying, so nothing you say about him can make any sense or be accurate unless you are yourself a LaRouchie. To those looking for a strong-man or leader, to those who are unconciously believers of the fuhrer principle, (that great men make history, often reinforced in our own hierarchical societie's culture),LaRouche can be appealing. LaRouche's self-proclaimations that he and he alone is the sole inheritor, walking in the image of christ on earth, solely capable of bettering the situation of life on earth and saving us all from a satanic cabal of corruption and homosexual drug induced filth - ths appeals only to a certain personality type, the very repressed, and for them his rantings will seem believable. While the field is somewhat limited, when you find the people who fit the mold, you must aggressively pursue them until they join. Similar debates rage at the Adolf Hitler page. Should the Hitlerians be able to keep off wikipedia pertinent information about Adolf Hitler or the war effort since 'making people sound bad' seems to have the effect of seeming 'POV'. Capone 7-9-04
- Chaim, you did link the article to your goofy shit in the PCC paper. And how's your Dad?
Updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version
It's not just the propaganda -- even the parts that attempt to be non-propagandistic are sloppy and amateurish, as if the writer(s) had done no research whatsoever. This ought to be re-written from scratch. -- Peter_Abelard@ausi.com
I see that Krusty the Clown is still vandalizing the article. Should I protect the page? 172 03:47, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I don't think the situation here currently warrants protection. Krusty's edits can be dealt with as they occur. Adam 04:06, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Okay. When necessary, I can be called on to protect the page whenever I'm online, as I haven't been an editor of the article. 172 04:12, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Regardless of the outcome of arbitration proceedings, how about dealing with some of the disputed points in Krusty's latest list (the NPOV ones, anyway)? Ambivalenthysteria 04:25, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
My copy of Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person." The deliberations on the Talk:Lyndon LaRouche pages, in conjunction with Adam's admission on the Arbitration Evidence Page ("It is of course true that I and others editing here are hostile to LaRouche."), leave little doubt that what we have here is a lynch mob of sorts, editing at cross-purposes with Wikipedia policy as stated. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:04, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Actually, as described in the article, LaRouche's economic policies don't strike me as corporatist per se (ie there's no reference in the description of LaRouche's economic ideas to creating administrative economic bodies that are drawn from management and labour). Either the section should be developed to explain how LaRouche's policies are corporatist or the reference to corporatism should be dropped. AndyL 04:34, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- LaRouche is an outspoken opponent of corporatism. It continues to amaze me that you guys can pontificate about his ideas, while remaining entirely unfamiliar with them. --Herschelkrustofsky 05:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I agree that the term is not perfect, but it seemed to be the best fit for the combination of authoritarian leadership and state direction of the economy that LaRouche seems to be advocating. He does not as far as I know advocate state ownership, so he can't be called a socialist, and although some of his political ideas can be called fascist, "fascist" does not really describe an economic system. "Mercantilist" has some applicability, given the 18th century roots of the so-called American System stuff, but applies more to trade than to the management of the domestic economy. (All this presupposes that LaRouche does in fact hold coherent economic ideas, which I doubt. I think he just uses bits of economic jargon to dress up his conspiracy theories, which are what really drive him). Feel free to suggest alternative wordings. Adam 04:41, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The American System stuff seems to allude to Henry Clay (19th century). At any rate, Adam hit the nail on the head; a conversation based on an assumption that LaRouche is a serious economic thinker is a bit silly. "Mercantilism," "socialism," "New Deal liberalism," "corporatism," or any single economic school of thought don't fit perfectly. So just referring to his support for "state direction of the economy" is fine. 172 04:56, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've found websites that describe LaRouchian economics as corporatist - I don't think economists would necessarily describe them as such though - so I've changed the passage accordingly. I don't think we should say economists would describe his policies as corporatist unless either a) we can find any economists who say this (doubtful as I suspect no serious economists have conducted a review of LaRouche) or b) if we find elements in his economic writings that more clearly approximate corporatism to the degree that we could reasonably claim an economist might see them as such.AndyL 10:42, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- If you are hell-bent on defaming someone, the internet is a powerful tool. For example, you can quickly download proof that former U.S. President Bill Clinton is a rapist, that his presidential campaign was backed by space aliens, and that he may have had sex with space aliens. --Herschelkrustofsky 19:57, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
LaRouche at the DNC
You've got to listen to this conversation  between a LaRouchite and a Democratic delegate in Boston last week. It's from the LaRouche website but it's absolutely hilarious and is a pretty good example of how an ordinary person reacts when confronted with LaRouche propaganda. AndyL 19:58, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I also found this very enjoyable, but just to clarify, the young, witty black guy in the dreadlocks is the LaRouche activist, and the constipated white Baby Boomer is the guy that Andy characterizes as an "ordinary person." --Herschelkrustofsky 21:02, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I didn't find the LaRouchite witty at all. The white dude was giving him way more credit than he deserved, and it is funny because he really calls him on the fact that he has no policy--that he refuses to answer any questions about issues, has literature full of nonsense, and only responds by inviting him to the a study group. The fact that the LaRouchies actually posted this video shows how out of touch they are, and the fact that they were surreptitiously videotaping the conversation shows how weird and creepy they are. --Aug 1 21:08:35 UTC 2004