Talk:Lynn Hill

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Featured article Lynn Hill is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 17, 2013.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
February 15, 2013 Good article nominee Listed
March 27, 2013 Peer review Reviewed
May 14, 2013 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article


Revision of article[edit]

I'm going to start working on this article over the holidays and try to get it to GA or FA. Anyone want to help me? Wadewitz (talk) 23:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

I've added some handy info from my bookshelf. Lynn Hill gives Ophir Broke a grade of 5.12d. You might want to check this. JMiall 01:37, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! That information was already in the article and I'm not sure where it came from. Where might I find a reference for it? Do you have one? Wadewitz (talk) 18:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
It's in the same 'Journeys on the rock' chapter by Lynn Hill that everything I added was referenced to. JMiall 19:08, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
Changed. Thanks for that! Wadewitz (talk) 19:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Book sources[edit]

I'm going to be searching out some books in the following couple of weeks - what books do editors here already own? I'll avoid camping out in REI and reading those! :) Wadewitz (talk) 19:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

A couple of online sources, 1 2. JMiall 13:58, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Great, thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 01:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Another mountainzone article containing quite a few of her opinions that might be useful. JMiall 22:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 22:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I see there's a newish book by Messner on women climbers that mentions her. It only seems to have German, French and Italian translations at the moment though. JMiall 09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I might be able to make my way through the German translation - can you link me? Wadewitz (talk) 23:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think there is a version online but this is the book. JMiall 20:02, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Some more possible sources:

Sport climber?[edit]

So, the lead to this article describes Hill as a "sport climber", but I'm wondering if that is the correct term - isn't she more of a trad climber? The terms seem to have shifted in her lifetime, though. It is all a bit confusing, honestly. Wadewitz (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok, so I've described her as a "competitive sport climber". That seems more precise. Wadewitz (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
This is hard. How best to word the lead? Hill is obviously a free climber, trad climber, big-wall climber, and sport climber all combined into one. Hm. And I just read an interview in which she said that describing her as a sport climber is "narrow and misleading". Wadewitz (talk) 18:31, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Photos[edit]

I am in the process of trying to get some CC-by-SA 3.0 photos of Lynn Hill climbing. I've emailed the following photographers:

  • Greg Epperson
  • Simon Carter

Once I'm done with the article, I'm email Lynn herself and see if I can get some photos as well. Wadewitz (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Greg is a no. Wadewitz (talk) 01:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Am also trying:
  • Beth Wald
  • Phillipe Fragnol
  • Heinz Zak

We'll see if I have better luck! Wadewitz (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Beth is a no. Wadewitz (talk) 19:31, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

The infobox photo looks rather too green to me. Adjust the levels? JMiall 00:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

That would be great if you want to do that! I would still like to get a more recent photo and better photos. Once I've finished the article, I'll email Lynn Hill herself and ask for some assistance. Wadewitz (talk) 19:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I've emailed Lynn Hill, since the article is in better shape now. Wadewitz (talk) 22:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
The email address I found for Hill doesn't work, but I found someone who knows her in a roundabout way, so I'm going to try to get her email address that way. Wadewitz (talk) 19:56, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I've also now made a few posts to some rock climbing forums. We'll see if that elicits anything. Wadewitz (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I've added a fair use image into the infobox for now. Wadewitz (talk) 19:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
That was deleted. I'll upload a different one in a few days - perhaps of her climbing the Great Roof. That should be fair use without a doubt. Wadewitz (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

This video is CC licenced. If the licence is correct, stills could be grabbed from about 4:15. JMiall 18:56, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Awesome find! I've grabbed a still and added it. It would seem that the film festival put the clips on YouTube, so I think the licenses are legit. Wadewitz (talk) 22:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Infobox[edit]

I took out the infobox that only had Hill's height and weight. I know her height is mentioned a lot, so perhaps we should put that in the article, but putting a box with her "measurements" on the side of the article is not really necessary. The climber infobox highlights her achievements - I think that is better. What other achievements do you think should go in that box? Wadewitz (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd have added them to the existing infobox if I could but as far as I can tell I'd have had to edit the template to give the option. It is pretty standard to give height etc for sportspeople and I don't see why climbers should be any different. JMiall 00:22, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I looked around at some featured articles and it seems like it really depends on the sport - some include this information and some don't. I don't think there are any FA climbing biographies yet so we can set the standard here. I feel very torn. I know a lot of the sources mention Hill's height, so I feel like that information should be in the article, but I feel like putting that information in the infobox gives it more weight than necessary. I tend to prefer streamlined infoboxes, with only essential information. In this case, for example, I would prefer to focus on her achievements. What do you think? Wadewitz (talk) 18:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Mentioning height in an infobox doesn't take away from her achievements though, in fact in her case it adds to her wall climbing achievements as this is generally easier for taller people, although rock climbing is often easier if you are short as it helps with the power-to-weight ratio and the holds don't tend to be so discrete. I'm generally of the opposite view in that I'd prefer as much structured info in the infobox as possible, not least because then it can be more easily mined for DBpedia etc. As far as I can tell the only fairly physical sport that doesn't have height in the infobox of its featured articles is baseball, all the rest do. JMiall 00:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Ok, so how about we just add her height, then? I agree that it is significant for rock climbing and it is mentioned in a lot of the sources. Wadewitz (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
By adding it to the infobox fields? If so I'll ask if anyone objects first.JMiall 09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Sounds good. Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

So many redlinks![edit]

For this to eventually pass FA, we'll probably have to create articles for all of the red links. Project! :) Wadewitz (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to write a short article on Beverly Johnson (climber) & Mari Gingery.JMiall 09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool! Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Jean Baptiste Tribout too. JMiall 00:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Conversion templates[edit]

Does anyone know why the conversion templates aren't working in the article? Wadewitz (talk) 22:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lynn Hill/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

(Grins maniacally) mwahahahhaaaa ....seriously, I'll go through and copyedit as I go (see my edit summaries for explanations) and drop queries below.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

She is currently a sponsored athlete for Patagonia and is developing a climbing camp. - this sentence is a bit abrupt and the last bit comes over as a bit vague.
Moved to end of second paragraph of lead and tried to make more seamless. Let me know what you think. Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I'd like El Capitan in the lead. Probably add "in Yosemite" for non-Californians reading it.....
She was one of the best competitive sport climbers in the world during the late 1980s and early 1990s and is famous for making the first free ascent of the The Nose on El Capitan in Yosemite Valley. - Do you think it should say where Yosemite is? Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Hmmm, could go either way on this. not fussed....sorry meant "link" not "like" above...duh Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
It is linked. Wadewitz (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Born in Detroit, Michigan, Hill grew up in Fullerton, California. - reads very abruptly - any further biographical detail ehere would help smoothe it out - e.g. "moved with her family aged x'..." or whatever.
Unknown, unfortunately. Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
fair enough 20:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
ummm...what's a light pole?
National differences come to light. :) It is a street light. Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
aaah Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
annoying park rangers by eluding camps fees - make the "camp" adjectival or possessive..so lose the 's' or add an apostrophe..your choice...
Fixed. Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
She climbed her first 5.11 and first big wall with him - reading link still leaves me a little unclear about what 5.11 is....
I know. That article is not very good. We could link to Grade (climbing), which is better and has conversions for other climbing grading systems, but it is not really the most precise link. We could also improve the Yosemite Decimal System article, but that would take a lot of work, honestly. Explaining climbing grades in the middle of this article, though, seems out of place. What do you think? Wadewitz (talk) 19:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree - this is a problem I commonly have where subsidiary/target articles are in a problematic state to the point that they do not cover the material they should cover relevant to the bluelink (sigh) 00:55, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The para starting with Hill had a relationship with and climbed with climber ... jumps around a bit. I think discussion of the relationship with Long could be streamlined, and it just sorta jumps into mentioning Jablonsky which left me thinking, "hang on, where'd he come from?"
Ok, I've revised. See what you think. I took out Yablonski as there just isn't much info on him, anyway. Wadewitz (talk) 19:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
....and got the occasional television gig - a tad colloquial...
"occasionally appeared on television" Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Hill's partner at the time, John Long, was "astonished" by her feat. - use another word for astonish and de-quote
Used amazed and done. Wadewitz (talk) 19:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Their attempt to free climb The Nose was not successful, but Hill returned a week later with her friend Brooke Sandahl and was successful - reword so you don't use the same word twice in the one sentence..."mix it up" a little... ;)
Changed first part to "failed". Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
In her autobiography, Hill explains how she had "underestimated" how complicated - reword without using quotes if you can
Done. Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
In the World traveller section - is The North Face supposed to link where it links to?
Yep, that's right. Many of these outdoor gear companies have teams that they send around the world to climb, ski, etc. Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
In the last sentence of that section, maybe listing some of the places she climbed rather than just the countries would be more interesting.
I haven't been able to find much on that at all. Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Link Indian Creek Valley
I couldn't find a link that looked remotely close or right. Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
ok Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
From 1995 to 2000 Hill climbed and filmed in Kyrgyzstan, Vietnam, Morooco, Thailand, Scotland, Australia and Madagascar - are these the same places listed in the last bit of the world traveller section? Can we somehow rationalise...?
Only in the world traveler section now. Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
In 2005 Lynn started offering climbing camps in five locations in the United States, with plans for more. - leaves us hanging a bit...any more details? It is seven years ago after all.....
I haven't seen any more information. I assume they aren't happening any more, but there aren't any sources that say that, either. Wadewitz (talk) 19:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
yeah, it's frustrating with sources or lack thereof....Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
ok, boring stuff....fingers crossed you can sort out copyright on infobox portrait
It looks like we will have to use a fair use photo. I've had no luck getting a CC-by-SA photo of Hill yet. Wadewitz (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I guess for the time being you could argue for Fair Use rationale for the infobox one...maybe? I've not resorted to Fair Use much so some discussion and consensus among those more familiar may be good....Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Fair use photo added. Wadewitz (talk) 19:21, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
one ref has "Douglad"
That is what the source says. Wadewitz (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
given we're getting finickier about pageranges (and we're thinkin' FAC), why not use templates for books such as the one I used in Persoonia linearis. My connection is slow so I can do a big explanation. (eg for FN 40 which has a 30 page range...)

Overall, looking pretty "Good" ....

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:
Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:
Citations to reliable sources, where required:
No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:
Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: - I think the FU rationale is justified here....


Overall:

Pass or Fail: Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:36, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Cool! Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 18:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Is the picture of Lynn Hill[edit]

The one with the caption: "Hill became a world-renowned climber in The Gunks."?

The caption suggests it is, but I don't think so. Star767 (talk) 01:02, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

No not her. Just an illustration of a climber on a popular bit of the Gunks. JMiall 11:56, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The sentence itself is misleading. Did it really take the Gunks before she became world famous? She spent a bit of time in the NY Gunks and then suddenly became world famous? She was famous before she went to the Gunks.

Also, while Brad Lynch may be a chef, he is also her partner in directing and making movies. He also edits. Lots of film making credits.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.241.67.45 (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Contradictory sources[edit]

This interview says that she was inspired to take part in competition climbing by Marco Scolaris, which is rather different to what the article currently says. JMiall 14:17, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen that in any other sources, so I'm tempted to leave it out unless we find other sources that same thing. Wadewitz (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Also this claims she quit gymnastics at age 17.

Hm. Her autobiography says she quit before high school and then took it up again in high school. This article could be condensing that timeline. Wadewitz (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Grades[edit]

The article using solely YDS for grades (except the infobox, which I changed). While YDS is the most common grading scale in the US, should we be converting to the French scale (I think the most common world-wide)? It's similar to mathematical units where we convert, for example, from miles to kilometers. See WP:UNITS. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

That is a good point. I'm not enough of a climber to know the answer to that one. One of the reasons that I used YDS is because the sources reported the climbs in those grades. Maybe the grades should be reported in the grade they are reported in? So, US climbs in YDS, French scale for those climbs, etc.? This seems like an excellent question for the climbing project. Wadewitz (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Even though it would help readability within a single article I don't think we should try to convert to any single grading system because the conversions between systems are only approximate, particularly because they consider different aspects important, and the grading of any route is hardly an exact science anyway. As a general rule I would suggest using either the system under which a route was first graded, or the standard system used in the country it is in, or both. JMiall 13:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I was talking to a more experienced climber last night and he was saying that the general trend in climbing literature and the climbing community is to use the system that the climb was first graded in. It may not be uniform, but that is the standard in the community, so I guess we should follow it. Wadewitz (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
J: I don't think it would help the average reader at all. Someone who hasn't climbed won't care if a route is 5.10a or 9a, they'll want a sort of barometer to how "hard" a route is, and I think we'll have to use prose for that. I was thinking it would be useful for those who know a little about the sport, and have climbed a little, and doesn't realize that there are multiple grading scales, and so won't realize that a 9a climb is substantially harder than a 5.10a climb. W: I agree that we should be using the grade that the climb was first graded in. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 13:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Los Angeles Angeles[edit]

From the Early life section - Is there some reason that "Angeles" is intentional? Don't we want "Los Angeles Angels"?

Thus, even though she was part of a successful YMCA gymnastics team that competed in southern California and performed in halftime shows for the Los Angeles Angeles, she quit at the age of 12.

KConWiki (talk) 14:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Not having heard any reason to the contrary, I am going to go ahead and change "Angeles" to "Angels". If there is any problem with this, please let me know. KConWiki (talk) 21:05, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
This was brought up at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lynn Hill/archive1 where the primary writer of the article states that it isn't a typo. Presumably that's what it says in the source. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 22:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
That's fine, however, I am sure I am not the only person who will be confused by this, esp. if the article achieves greater prominence. Can we get something on this talk page to explain what's going on with that team name? KConWiki (talk) 01:56, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I got confused. I thought people were asking if "Angeles Angels" itself was a typo, but yes, it should be "Angeles Angels". Fixed now. Wadewitz (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

International Climbing Championship[edit]

I have removed again the wikilink International Climbing Championship because it's impossible, the first world championship was held in 1991. Please read on ifsc-climbing site: http://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/about-ifsc/what-is-the-ifsc/history. It says: "In 1991, the 1st World Championship was organised in Frankfurt..." --Rotpunkt (talk) 20:34, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Lead section[edit]

"Hill shaped rock climbing..." - could this be re-phrased for clarity? Hel-hama (talk) 05:11, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

The general gist of that sentence is that she made it seem possible for women to be climbers. She inspired a lot of women to climb. "One of the first successful women in the sport, Hill shaped rock climbing for women and became a public spokesperson, helping it gain wider popularity and arguing for gender equality." - How would you suggest we reword? Wadewitz (talk) 16:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Something along the lines of what you said. "Lynn Hill opened new horizons for women in rock climbing. She inspired a lot of women to climb." (This could be tied in to her continuing work to teach women = and men = to climb). Of course, Lynn inspires both sexes, so the whole idea could be left out, as well. The ways in which she shaped rock climbing have more to do with her style of climbing than being a woman.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.241.67.45 (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Length justified?[edit]

Isn't this article much, much too long and detailed? Lynn Hill has certainly been an important climber, but my God, seven thousand words??! In contrast, Ed Hillary merits only 4,900 and Reinhold Messner's entry is at 4,300 words. Hillary and Messner, for different reasons, are far more significant mountaineers historically than Hill. I'd suggest that the article be edited to a more streamlined length. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isoruku (talkcontribs) 23:31, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Aren't the Edmund Hillary and Reinhold Messner articles much, much too short and not detailed enough? Edmund Hillary and Reinhold Messner have certainly been important climbers, but my God, only 4,900 and 4,300 words??! In contrast, Lynn Hill merits her 7,000 words. Hillary and Messner, for different reasons, are far more significant mountaineers historically than Hill. I'd suggest that their article be edited to a more extended length. Akseli9 (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Akseli9, is that supposed to be clever? Isoruku (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Isoruku, whether or not Akseli9's comment is clever, collegial, pleasant, etc., I think the underlying point is a good one: Whenever making such a comparison, the choice of which one you consider the standard is significant, and should be made with care. (And also, the idea that comparable topics should have articles of comparable length is not clearly established -- but let's not get into that one.)
In this particular case, the one that should be considered the "standard" is pretty clear. This article has been through a Good Article nomination, a peer review, and a Featured Article nomination. It's not substantially different (in either length or content) from the version approved as an FA: Special:PermaLink/555030199. My contrast, neither the bio of Edmund Hillary nor that of Reinhold Messner has, as far as I can see, ever been through any formal peer review process; so the contents of those articles shouldn't be taken as a reflection of ideal Wikipedia content. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 23:11, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

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