Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)

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Disruptive editing - 31 December 2019‎[edit]

Reverting last two edits. Please do not delete sourced material. The 'Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005' explicitly states facts such as

"In August a regional newspaper in the northern part of the country censored an article on the controversy surrounding the Slavophone dialect, referred to as "Macedonian," that was to be published in a regular column. The European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages and the Greek Helsinki Monitor (GHM) expressed concern over the newspaper's refusal to publish the article."

"In May 2004 a former Greek Orthodox priest who became a priest of the Macedonian Orthodox Church was issued a three‑month prison sentence, later suspended, for holding religious services without a house of prayer permit. He appealed the sentence, but at year's end there was no decision."

"The law permits the government to remove citizenship from persons who commit acts contrary to the interests of the country for the benefit of a foreign state. While the law applies to citizens regardless of ethnicity, it has been enforced in all but one case only against persons who identified themselves as members of the "Macedonian minority." The government did not reveal the number of such cases, but it was believed to be low, and there were no reports of new cases during the year. Dual citizens who lost their citizenship under this provision sometimes were prevented from entering the country on the passport of their second nationality. Activists charged that several expatriate "Slavo-Macedonians" whose names appeared on a "black list" were barred from entering the country."

"On October 20, the ECHR ordered the government to pay $42,294 (35,245 euros) to the Rainbow Party for violations of 2 ECHR articles: the right to a fair hearing and the right to freedom of assembly and association. The ruling faulted police for failing to take measures to prevent, or at least contain, violence during a 1995 demonstration instigated by the town council and local priests, during which Rainbow Party members were assaulted after the group hung a sign written in both Greek and the "Slavomacedonian dialect" outside party headquarters. The ECHR also held that the seven years and one month that authorities took to investigate the case was an excessive and unreasonable amount of time."

Which sounds like political oppression by the government. Beat of the tapan (talk) 00:16, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

There is also the statement from Amnesty International titled Charges against members of the "Rainbow" party should be dropped which states "Amnesty International is calling on the Greek authorities to drop the charges against four members of the ethnic Macedonian minority party "Rainbow" at their trial in Florina on 15 September 1998.

"Rainbow" members Vasilis Romas, Costas Tasopoulos, Petros Vasiliadis and Pavlos Voskopoulos are charged with "causing and inciting mutual hatred among the citizens" under Article 192 of the Greek Penal Code.

These charges were brought against them after they displayed a sign bearing the words "Florina Committee" in both Greek and Macedonian outside the Florina office of the Rainbow Party in September 1995. There is nothing in the indictment which suggests that they advocated violence or incited hatred.

Amnesty International believes that their prosecution is a violation of Article 10 (1) of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms (ECHR), which Greece has ratified and is legally bound to observe.

Article 10 (1) states: "Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers."

Should they be imprisoned after their trial, Amnesty International will adopt them as prisoners of conscience and will call for their immediate and unconditional release."


I will be adding this as an additional source. If you are not happy with any cited material that is presented in the article, then consider rephrasing in stronger correspondence to the citation, rather than deletion. Although now that the issue has been brought up in the talk page, you will need consensus for such changes.

In terms of language shifts, there are terms such as "slavicize" used in academic literature. slavicization, to some degrees, has shaped the Macedonian ethnic group as Latinization language shifts has shaped many ethnic groups in Western Europe. Unless you can find a source contrary to this, I suggest discussing it prior to removing it. Beat of the tapan (talk) 01:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

First of all, you were adding new material with your edits, not me, so you need to gain consensus. About the language shift, it's not a straightforward fact at all how slavicization processes approximated/hypothesized by researchers to had happened mostly in the early middle ages are of any significance when we refer on the "shaping" or "history" of the modern group, however we define these words. Even if you manage to establish with specific sources its noteworthiness, you'll need to add it in a more clear manner, not in the middle of a sentence which basically describes how fluid identities and national affiliations were in Ottoman Macedonia and onwards. There was no Slavicization process in 19th century Ottoman Macedonia, the earliest period the identity can be said to have formed, so there was no such "language shift" taking part in the Macedonian ethnogenesis. GroGaBa (talk) 09:15, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Beat of the tapan, Slavicization of Ethnic Macedonians is something new. As far as I know the Ethnic Macedonians arose as a separate comunity and later as a nation during the 20th century. The Slavicization on the Balkans occurred mainly during 7-9 centuries mostly among the local Byzantines (formed by an early medieval mix of Ancient Greek, Thracian, Illyrian, Roman, etc. subjects, later Christianized, and subsequently linguistically Romanized or Hellenized) and some contemporary invaders as Bulgars, Avars etc. How this process could shape a nation that was non-existing then? I think the Hellenization that occurred in Northern Greece after 1912 and especially between 1936-1941 and between 1945-1974, has played a crucial role for the linguistic replacement among many Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia, which caused several waves of migrations from people with ethnic Macedonian identity or such who adopted it abroad. Jingiby (talk) 11:30, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Category:Slavic countries and territories[edit]

It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8#Countries and territories by language family. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Macedonians. Krakkos (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2020 (UTC)