Talk:Maltese tiger

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Messybeast.com has given permission to use the blue tiger (museum specimen) artist impression on http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/mutant-bigcats.html if someone wishes to add it to the maltese tiger article.

Messybeast would like to be properly attributed as the image owner. It is not a public domain image.Messybeast 17:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

FAct or fiction[edit]

This animal has never been captured, why is it presented as fact that this animal exists? -Ravedave 00:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

This is becoming a common problem with articles on cryptids whose existence is dubious. Oftentimes the language is changed to be more neutral but an anonymous user reverts it to imply that the animal actually exists. -- Huysman 20:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Mentioning Harry R. Caldwell as the descrictor of the supspecies in the tassobox is misleading! Caldwell has never described it, not in the meanig that usually is given to the word in the scientific community (i.e. zoological description on a qualified scientific pubblication) --Esculapio 19:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Blue tigers and black tigers are of only slight interest in the field of cryptozoology, because it seems most likely that they will simply be a color phase due to a mutant gene, and not worthy of being declared a new subspecies or species.

Fujian Province of JAPAN????!?!![edit]

I thought Fujian was part of China. What is this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.52.215.78 (talk) 16:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

Sources?????[edit]

Does anyone have sources about this animal? I am very skeptical about that..--Altaileopard 15:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I find it perfectly plausible. the important thing is to get rid of the "blue" = blue misconception. I find no or virtually no support for an animal as depicted. The tiger of Caldwell was described as 'Maltese base color which changed to deep blue on the undersides'. He noted that the stripes 'appeared to be similar to those of a Bengal Tiger, only of a blue color.' This rhymes well with the Maltese cheetahs and other known blue cats: grey with darker grey pattern and eumelanins predominating by far if not totally ('deep blue undersides' of Caldwell), but not being pervasive (Shuker's "no-agouti" allele suppresses coat pattern to some sort of brown, black, blue or silver throughout.) Dysmorodrepanis 20:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Picture[edit]

Needs revision. Color pattern is not acceptable; how many "blue"-(not silver)-and black-white felids are there exactly? From Cheetah:

Blue (Maltese or gray) Cheetahs have variously been described as white Cheetahs with gray-blue spots (chinchilla) or pale gray Cheetahs with darker grey spots (Maltese mutation).

which is unsourced but seems 100% in line with Cat coat genetics. See also Caldwell report above. The tricky question is: how blue? Probably not very; this is a rather "blue" cat; compare a Russian Blue, as mentioned in the article. The belly thing is also vexing - could be countershading backfiring as the original pattern for which the backshading fit was no longer there. Or could be hyperexpression of dilute pheomelanin.

In any case, the Caldwell animal was probably slightly hypermelanic, slate grey with bluish grey stripes, and a bluish gray belly. Maltese (dilute) agouti tabby with complete lack of pheomelanin and possibly somewhat enhanced/all-black eumelanin would fit. Dysmorodrepanis 20:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Needs review[edit]

I'm not an outright expert on the specifics, but it was plain obvious that the genetis are fundamentally flawed (things like confusing genes and alleles tend to ring warning bells...). Shuker was hardly trustworthy on that matter too. In fact, I would say he understood not more much of it than the average highschool grad (not specifically pointing at this here problem, but at his attempts at genetic matters in general)

From Cat coat genetics:
"Thus, the non-agouti genotype (aa) masks or hides the tabby pattern (Mc and mc), although sometimes a suggestion of the underlying pattern can be seen (called "ghost striping")"

This is not how Caldwell described his animal. Dysmorodrepanis 20:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Dr Karl Shuker Responds to Previous Comments[edit]

Better late than never, I've just encountered this talk page, in which my statements re the genetics of the Maltese or blue tiger have been, in my view, unfairly disparaged, so I therefore wish to take this opportunity to respond to the above comments.

In my various publications that contain discussions of cat genetics, I have taken pains NOT to confuse genes and alleles, and with the exception that since my Mystery Cats of the World book was published in the 1980s the view re the chinchilla coat condition in domestic cats is no longer deemed to be due to a mutant albino allele of the Full Colour gene C but rather an expression of the Inhibitor of Colour gene I's dominant allele in combination with the dominant wild-type allele of the Agouti gene, the genetics that I have documented there are still valid today.

Re the Maltese tiger: I stated in my publications that it may well be a 'blue dilution' effect homologous to that which creates the smoky blue-grey colouration in domestic cat breeds such as the Russian Blue and which is caused by a combined expression of two mutant recessive alleles - the dilute or maltese allele (d) of the Dense Pigmentation gene D and the non-agouti allele (a) of the Agouti gene A. This is not some baseless idea dreamt up by me, as the above editor seems to have thought, but one that had previously been proposed and published in relation to the Maltese tiger by leading cat geneticist Roy Robinson in his paper surveying the coat colour genetics of wild cats. Moreover, this same explanation for this grey/blue-furred condition is presented in the most recent edition of his standard work, Robinson's Cat Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians (1999), on p. 157, which reads as follows:

"Gray color, termed 'blue' in the cat fancy, is produced at the dilution or maltese gene locus, by the allele d in the formula aaB-dd". [where aa is the recessive non-agouti allele in the homozygous state, and dd is the recessive dilute allele in the homozygous state - exactly as I wrote in my own publications.]

Consequently, the editor's statement: "Shuker was hardly trustworthy on that matter too. In fact, I would say he understood not more much of it than the average highschool grad (not specifically pointing at this here problem, but at his attempts at genetic matters in general)" is not only insulting and childlishly spiteful, but, of much more significance, factually incorrect. In contrast, in view of what I have revealed here, the editor's description of their own knowledge on the genetics aspect under discussion here: "I'm not an outright expert on the specifics" seems to me to be a much more accurate assessment.

I do agree with the editor when this person quotes from Wikipedia's Cat coat genetics page and then states that the description there is not how Caldwell described the Maltese tiger seen by him. However, I wish to make clear that I did not contribute in any way to that Wikipedia page, so if by any chance the editor is using the discrepancy in descriptions to criticise me even further, this person is clearly misinformed. The same applies to all of the genetics speculation in paragraphs 2-4 of the genetics section on the Maltese tiger page - I have no idea who wrote all of those paragraphs, but it certainly wasn't me; however, by checking back through the history page for the Maltese tiger page, it shouldn't be difficult to find out when these were entered and by whom. Whoever did contribute those paragraphs may have been contributing original research, as I've not encountered any of this speculation in any published paper or work.

I trust that this clarifies matters, and would also hope that in future that this editor refrains from spouting forth blatant insults and discusses subjects in a more rational, objective, adult manner becoming of their status; to do otherwise does Wikipedia's reputation as a reliable, impartial souce of information no favours whatsoever.

Dr Karl Shuker Czbiker (talk) 02:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Sighting Information[edit]

The paragraph describing the sightings of the Blue Tiger appear to have been copied from http://www.unknownexplorers.com/bluetiger.php though it is possible the opposite may have occurred. This website is probably where the information originated and should be properly cited.

Is this tiger 'blue' ?[edit]

Blue tiger? If it is it would make a good page image, it looks very grey for a 'white' tiger and doesn't look edited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.252.70 (talk) 10:44, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

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