Talk:Manifest (TV series)

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"Guest Starring" and "co-starring"[edit]

It may be noted that recurring characters and one-episode characters are commingled under the header "Guest Starring" which appears in the opening credits — usually about five minutes into the episode — as well as under the header "co-starring" which appears in the closing credits. The cast members listed under "Guest Starring" have no indicated character names, while those listed under "co-starring" have specified character names.

Some of the one-episode actors listed under "co-starring", for example, "Elise Santora as Dr. Bortel" or "Joy Lynn Jacobs as Christine" have key speaking roles, while others, for example, "Dylan W. Holmes as Toddler" (no dialogue) or "Bebe Browning as Pedestrian" (two words) have very little to do. The order in which they are listed under "co-starring" may not directly reflect their importance to the episode in which they appear.

The sub-section header "Guest", as it currently appears in the article, is a selected list which includes a minor non-speaking role [* Onata Aprile as Hallie Pyler ("Pilot")], but lacks some important characters, such as "Mark Zimmerman as DHS Director Hughes" or "Cindy Im as DARPA Scientist".

Below, for the record, are the "Guest Starring" and "co-starring" credits for the first five episodes. The underscored/bolded/italicized names indicate one-episode appearances. If those characters make subsequent appearances in later episodes, their form will need to be revised.

1. Pilot[edit]

2. Reentry[edit]

3. Turbulence[edit]

4. Unclaimed Baggage[edit]

5. Connecting Flights[edit]

    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 22:10, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

6. Off Radar[edit]

This is the first of two episodes in which one of the seven top-billed regular cast members does not appear. Although credited in the opening cast list, Luna Blaise as Olive is absent and her absence is noted in the scene depicting Ben and Grace deciding to rush Cal to the hospital — Ben: "Get Olive"; Grace: "No, she slept at Avery's". Avery, the boy participating in Olive's make-up choices at the cosmetics store where Olive is subsequently caught shoplifting, appears in episode 4 ("Unclaimed Baggage").
    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 08:04, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

7. S.N.A.F.U.[edit]

    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 04:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

8. Point of No Return[edit]

This is the second (following 6. "Off Radar") of two episodes in which one of the seven top-billed regular cast members does not appear. Although credited in the opening cast list, Parveen Kaur as Saanvi is absent and not mentioned (she is, however, seen in the prolog recap of previous episodes).
    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 04:57, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

9. Dead Reckoning[edit]

    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 02:01, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

10. Crosswinds[edit]

        Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 02:02, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

11. Contrails[edit]

This is the third (following 6. "Off Radar" and 8. "Point of No Return") of three episodes in which one or more of the seven top-billed regular cast members play no part. Although credited in the opening cast list, Luna Blaise as Olive and Parveen Kaur as Saanvi are absent and not mentioned (Parveen Kaur is, however, glimpsed in the airplane flasbacks). It may be also noted that in 1. "Pilot" Leajato Robinson is credited as "as Co-Pilot Danny Clarke", but in 11. "Contrails" he is credited as "Co-Pilot Amuta".
    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 03:53, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Announcements[edit]

The development section is currently eight sentences. Four of them contain the phrase "it was announced", and a fifth uses the variation "it was reported." I have tried to improve the flow twice, but was fully reverted first and partially reverted second, both times by User:BoogerD. I get the concern about misrepresenting the source of the information, but surely there's a better way to write this. Any thoughts? Argento Surfer (talk) 18:37, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Completely agree. It's kinda ridiculous. Many of these "it was announced" can be removed. Just because the source in this article is not from NBC doesn't mean they didn't actually announce/take the action that day. Like the series order/backorder are all news sources reporting from he NBC press releases from those dates. - Brojam (talk) 19:10, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Initials[edit]

Consensus had been reached, follow on-screen credits. — YoungForever(talk) 17:47, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

MW Cartozian Wilson is how it is credited on episodes (without the periods). According MOS:INITIALS, Use initials in a personal name only if the name is commonly written that way. An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless: the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for his or her own name; and an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person. Another editor keep adding the periods, but this isn't how it was credited on episodes. Should MW Cartozian Wilson be credited as how he is credited on-screen on episodes (without periods) or with periods (he is not credited this way on-screen)? — YoungForever(talk) 22:23, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Go with the credits, as per WP:TVCAST. Some editors seem to believe that the MOS is more important than what sourcing does – many of us do not agree with that. --IJBall (contribstalk) 15:13, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Your explanation is correct. For TV series articles, we should be listing people exactly as they are credited on-screen, as that is their preferred crediting for X series. If there are periods, we put them; if there are not, we don't. Same with commas. If someone is credited as John Smith, Jr., we list them exactly like that. The WP:PRIMARY credits overwrite MOS:INITIALS or whatever other guideline is quoted. Amaury (talk | contribs) 15:14, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Conforms to MOS:INITIALS as well as "MW Cartozian Wilson" is how listed in the overwhelming majority of reliable sources which includes most places he is credited so should be treated as a self-published name change. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:56, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Exactly. — YoungForever(talk) 21:59, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
MOS:INITIALS states unless it's the preferred style or majority of reliable sources use it, not when the on-screen effect based font styling of a series chooses the ignore the use of periods. If you had a copy of the printed script that which would not use on-screen font styling for effect and had the periods removed then the unless exceptions would be valid. 119.224.3.221 (talk) 00:07, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
The periods have nothing to do with styling and effect on-screens in episodes. — YoungForever(talk) 00:28, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I believe it should be written how the person is credited onscreen. I've done this for the few shows I've added credits for. I wouldn't dream of doing any different because it seems disrespectful to me. Esuka (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
That's what I thought according to other editors as it say so on MOS:TVCAST which is clearly covered by WP:PRIMARY. It has nothing to do with styling and special effects. — YoungForever(talk) 01:14, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Uhm no, this is the specialist style fallacy. MOS:INITIALS is global and overrides MOS:TV and MOS:TVCAST. WP:PRIMARY applies to information, not to how that information is styled. We list "KJ Apa" not because that's how he's credited on Riverdale but because nearly all sources refer to him as "KJ" not "K.J." or "K. J." etc. The only question here is whether this person is nearly always listed as "MW Cartozian Wilson", not how they are credited on one particular TV show. If they are widely known by "MW", then yes, we list them as "MW". If not, we go by our Wikipedia style guide, which says "M. W. Cartozian Wilson". —Joeyconnick (talk) 01:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
On Audiobooks, he is credited as "MW Cartozian Wilson" as well. As Geraldo Perez said "MW Cartozian Wilson" is how listed in the overwhelming majority of reliable sources which includes most places he is credited so should be treated as a self-published name change. He is widely credited as "MW". — YoungForever(talk) 01:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) MOS:INITIALS is still a guideline. The primary sourcing, the credits themselves, trumps everything else. How the credits are displayed is how the actors and crew preferred to be credited on whatever series, and we honor that, so how someone is referred to in sources is irrelevant once a series premieres. Crediting is handled the same way as a direct quote. Are we going to remove periods in a direct quote because of some silly initials guidelines? No. The actors and crew should be listed how they are credited for each individual series. If Series X credits an actor as John Smith, we list them as John Smith for that series; as such, we do go by how someone is credited on a particular television series. If that actor is widely referred to as Jonathan Smith in sourcing and/or is credited as Johnathan Smith in 20 other television series, that is irrelevant. He is credited as John Smith for Series X, and that's what we would list in the Series X article. This is no different. Wrong, as always. Amaury (talk | contribs) 01:54, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Agree with Amaury – MOS:INITIALS doesn't "trump" another guideline like MOS:TVCAST. And, indeed, as previously indicated, MOS:INITIALS doesn't even "require" periods in cases such as this one. --IJBall (contribstalk) 01:58, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
The editor who reverted several times is making up his or her own rules/guidelines. — YoungForever(talk) 02:03, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Well said Amaury & IJBall, I think the same. And I think most editors adding credits would go by the episode itself too. Esuka (talk) 03:05, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
  • @Amaury: Wrong, as always. You really do need to review WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL.
  • But to get back to the matter at hand, we most definitely would remove periods from a direct quote, just like we would replace hyphens or incorrect dashes in direct quotes based on MOS:DASH/MOS:HYPHEN... because those are stylistic changes. And in fact if you check the quoting guidelines, it does allow for even minor typo corrections when said typos are clearly unambiguously errors. So treating how something appears in a source as 100% sacrosanct all the time is not only not a good approach, it's not the approach we take. We regularly make tweaks that result in not 100% exact replicas.
  • Yes, if someone is listed by, say, a different name in credits, like Rebecca Romijn who is credited in the early X-Men films under her married name at the time of Rebecca Romijn-Stamos, then yes, we would follow the credits because that's different information, not simply a different way of styling that information. But if there's a direct quote that says "K. J. Apa did this particular whatever", then yes, someone who changed that to read "KJ Apa did this particular whatever" would be following MOS:INITIALS—as we are supposed to. Now... it's a small change and probably not worth making a big deal about... but it would be more in line with our guidelines. Conversely, if someone who is mainly referred to as "A. B. Cee" is in one instance credited as "AB Cee", per MOS:INITIALS, we should be listing them as "A. B. Cee". Again, not necessarily worth making a huge brouhaha over but more in keeping with guidelines.
  • Per WP:CONLEVEL, I'm afraid a site-wide guideline like MOS:INITIALS does actually trump project-specific ones like MOS:TV and MOS:TVCAST. Specifically: For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.
  • And finally, I don't want to be misunderstood (since some people do seem to love that as a tactic) as saying we should be using "M. W. Cartozian Wilson" per a misreading of MOS:INITIALS. I just want to be clear we should be looking at sources overall, not the credits in one show, to make the determination of periods or no periods. Sounds like "MW" wins out. —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:45, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
His Twitter account is using "MW" as well. He is tagging the Manifest Official Twitter account and posing pics with cast. — YoungForever(talk) 07:02, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
For stuff like this, onscreen crediting from the show should be considered to be the "preeminent" source and should be given more WP:WEIGHT as a result. But, in general, secondary sourcing will usually follow the onscreen crediting anyway. --IJBall (contribstalk) 07:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
@YoungForever: This is not a valid RfC, there is no clear statement of the problem. See WP:RFC#Statement should be neutral and brief also how the RfC presently shows at the RfC listings. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:18, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I just fixed it. I cut down what I originally posted before the bot maintenance to one sentence. — YoungForever(talk) 17:22, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Do you mean this edit? That's no good: it's a bot-maintained page, and any edit by anybody other than Legobot will be automatically overwritten the next time that the bot runs, like this. You need to fix the problem at its source, which means observing WP:RFC, which in turn means placing the {{rfc}} template immediately before the opening statement. Once that is done, Legobot will copy everything from the {{rfc}} template (exclusive) to the next timestamp (inclusive) onto the RfC listing page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I am sorry I was really confused. Did I fix it now? See above (I moved it). — YoungForever(talk) 22:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, but you should not have attempted to amend the RfC listing entry - you would have been shown this message when editing, in order to warn you not to. Legobot is perfectly capable of doing that itself (check through the history of that page to see just how few non-Legobot edits there have been), and has gone to the trouble of fixing it up for you. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:36, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I am so sorry about that. — YoungForever(talk) 00:37, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Follow the onscreen credits. Secondary sources aren't useful for a style issue because those outlets will follow their own style guides. The (non)use of periods after an initial isn't something that can be cited. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
That's what I always thought based on MOS:TV. — YoungForever(talk) 01:01, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I support the position that names, which are listed in Wikipedia articles dealing with film and television, should be depicted in those names' on-screen form. In this specific case, the on-screen pen name is, indeed, "MW Cartozian Wilson" and that is how the name should appear in Wikipedia's printed credits.    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 18:19, 11 January 2019 (UTC)