Talk:Marathon

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Notable marathoners, again[edit]

(For an earlier discussion on this same topic, see Talk:Marathon/Archive_1#Notable_marathoners)

Marathon#Other notable marathon runners currently offers no guidelines for inclusion/exclusion other than "elite athletes notable for their performance in marathoning". In the absence of any real standard, the list will continue to grow and grow as people stop by and see that so-and-so is not on the list. Is it time to split this off to List of marathoners, with inclusion defined as "elite athletes notable for their performance in marathoning". It could be set-up in a tabular format with an arbitrarily determined number of sentences (two or three?) to highlight each marathoner's major achievements in marathoning. Thoughts? Location (talk) 03:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You have my support. Also, I think the section in this article needs to be more than just a list of names. Each athlete needs at least one sentence on why they are notable. That requirement would go a long way to keep the list to a sensible number. Actually, that should be true even for an independent list. David D. (Talk) 06:04, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
If the list is to include just "elite athletes notable for their performance in marathoning", that would exclude not only Dane Rauschenberg and Rosie Ruiz but also Bobbi Gibb and Kathrine Switzer who currently appear on the list. My opinion is that "elite" should be struck so that people notable primarily for what they have done in the marathon are included. If necessary, elite marathoners could be separated from non-elite marathoners but that could be a bit subjective in some cases. For those who might be following this discussion, are there any objections to moving this to List of marathoners? Location (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
No objections, lists in articles are generally problematic, and it's clear in this case that it's bloated. Good work. --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 20:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I've moved Marathon#Other notable marathon runners to List of marathoners. That list is obviously incomplete in that it does not note some of the big names already listed in the main article here. Location (talk) 18:29, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

List format[edit]

If we split this off, I think the list should have some useful information in it; however, I'm not certain to how to go about doing it. Here is one idea:

Name Olympic Games
gold medalist
World Championships
gold medalist
World Marathon Majors
winner
Other
Gezahegne Abera 2000 2001
Abel Antón 1997, 1999
Stefano Baldini 2004 [Bronze in 2001, 2003]
Arturo Barrios [Strike. Not known as a marathon runner.]
Dick Beardsley Duel in the Sun with Alberto Salazar.[?]

The sortable function is probably not necessary. Should we divide the "Olympic Games" and the "World Championships" columns into "Gold", "Silver", and "Bronze"? Should we divide the "World Marathon Majors" column into "1st", "2nd", or "3rd", or should we just note victories in the WMM series? How do we explain the inclusion of marathoners who have won big races, but nothing at the top levels (e.g. Elfenesh Alemu and Carla Beurskens)? Other ideas? I apologize for making this more complicated than it needs to be. Location (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, I made a proposition here. The original table y'have here is cleaner. For multiple victories, medals, etc., these can be listed vertically rather than horizontally. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:21, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
And I just realized. Can't just note any marathon winner of any marathon, because of the number of marathons year-round. Each marathon has their list of winners anyways. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

How-to section[edit]

Moved this section here per WP:NOTGUIDE. This material here can be presented as "facts". However, it cannot be "instructional". That kind of material is left for folks like Hal Higdon and other runners/coaches giving such advice. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 21:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Section removed from talk page and restored to article (though parts of it are unlikely to remain there long), per discussion below. Hertz1888 (talk) 05:29, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Support. I'm glad someone finally did this. Most of the above information is not particularly unique to the marathon, so it could eventually be merged with Running (sport). Location (talk) 22:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Disagree. I object to the wholesale removal of this section and view it as an overreaction. As the tag says, the section can be improved by rewriting the how-to content—which is far from constituting the entire content. I contend that all or most of the deleted material (which doesn't belong on this talk page anyway) should be speedily restored to the article; then we can collectively engage in the relatively hard work of bringing it into compliance with WP:NOTGUIDE. Whatever is non-germane to the marathon can go elsewhere, with hatnotes or other linking directing the reader there. Hertz1888 (talk) 03:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
    • FYI: You've been involved with this article for along time, and I won't revert if you decide to replace it. Location (talk) 04:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Thanks. I'm inclined to do that, especially if I can count on your collaboration and/or constructive criticism. I won't have major time to devote to the article immediately, but will get to it asap. To start things off, could you point to specific portions you feel clearly exceed the allowable policy limits? Would also welcome hearing from KyuuA4 and others. Hertz1888 (talk) 04:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
        • It's not that I think the material is violating policy, but rather that it belongs in an article about running. A good target article for that material is Running (sport), which I believed had been briefly discussed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics at one time. I'll raise the issue there again. Location (talk) 17:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
          • Instead on focusing on preparation of the marathon, it's best to focus on the marathon itself. Basically, answer the question: "What happens at marathons?" For the sake of reference, it would be a good idea to look at the other sport articles. After all, running is a sport; and marathoning is a specific "event" in that sport. Of course, that is the challenge to this article. With the increase of popularity to marathoning, there's literally a ton of material out there on "how to train for a marathon". Oddly enough, there's nothing on "how to host a marathon" (not that I'm recommending to add that in) as virtually almost every city in the US has one . KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 20:08, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Move. Looking at suggestions of others, Running is a good place to move that material. Granted, that article itself is struggling with the "How to" issue as well under the "injury" section. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 20:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The instructional how-to advice is gone, with not a single "should" remaining. Thank you for allowing me the honor of reworking the article. Hertz1888 (talk) 00:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Ryan Shay[edit]

At the end of the Cardiac risks section is a tiny paragraph about the death of Ryan Shay. Sad and all as it is, it seems out of place to me. Many people have died in marathons. Yes, this guy died (probably) from cardiac issues, but I'm sure many others have too. The is no reference. It is in danger of looking like US centric material, and there is no indication of just why this guy cracks a mention. I reckon it should go. HiLo48 (talk) 06:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done (sad and all as it is). Hertz1888 (talk) 13:09, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Being an elite athlete who died from marathoning, it is worth mentioning per notability. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 20:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Someone who can find a proper citation might want to restore the item, in the right context. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, it needs citations or references to demonstrate that he was a notable marathoner, and that his particular death was more significant than others. HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Although his death was not more significant than others, he was indeed a notable runner - a USATF champion in multiple events - and probably the most notable individual to die during a marathon. Reporting his death "in the right context" is key as Shay died while running a marathon but not actually from running a marathon. Shay had a pre-existing heart condition and had not even reached the 10K mark, so we need to be careful not to give the impression that it is the distance that puts someone at risk of death. Location (talk) 23:23, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Economic Impact of Marathons[edit]

Here's a topic the article doesn't cover at all. Out of curiosity, I started Googling on this subject matter. Eventually, I'll be dumping a bunch of links here for reference. Other relevant information: general statistics, including number of runners per year (particularly US and world-wide). Though, I do not expect much on world wide numbers. Many of the statistics pertaining to marathons fall within the US-only. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 10:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Haven't looked at the statistics, but if they really do have a big emphasis on US data, they would would probably be better in an article on the situation in the USA, rather than this global article. HiLo48 (talk) 17:24, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Yea, very much looking to avoid that. Yet, much of that kind of data, such as participant numbers, can be delegated into the various articles on the individual marathons themselves. But, here's a world view set of numbers: http://www.aims-association.org/statistics/World's_Largest_Marathons.html KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 07:28, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Races seem to be closing sooner, so I am under the impression that we are in the middle of another marathon boom. Has anyone dug-up any references on this? Location (talk) 16:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Misc Stats[edit]

http://runningusa.org/node/57770#57771 KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 10:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of women[edit]

This section is a great addition to the article. I do have a concern regarding the statement: "For challenging the long held tradition of all-male marathon running in the Boston Marathon, in 1967, Kathrine Switzer is regarded as the first woman to officially run a marathon." First, the source of this statement is from Switzer. Secondly, she contradicts herself elsewhere: "My infamous run at the 1967 Boston Marathon is recorded as unofficial...". Her 1967 run is recognized as certainly recognized as a defining moment in the women's marathon, however, I've seen it written that this was simply because there happened to be a great photo that went along with the story. Anyway, there may need to be some clarification here. Location (talk) 15:00, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The story is summarized here. We could say that due to a fluke she was the first woman to run Boston as a numbered entry, but unofficially. I'll try some rewording. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Multiple marathons[edit]

I hate to see the dumb Paquin/Cummings debate spilling over into Wikipedia, and I think mention of both should be stricken from the article since age group records (and club records at that!) are fairly insignificant. To recap for those not familiar, there are two clubs with very similar criteria:

One club requires a member to run a marathon that touches soil in DC, but this is a bone of contention for some in that the rules are different for the clubs (e.g. the first states that Marine Corp Marathon is a Virigina marathon because it starts and finishes in VA, whereas the other states it can count either way because it passes through DC). Some of the finer points: Paquin did 50 states at a slightly younger age than Cummings did her 50 states or her 50 states plus DC. Cummings apparently used the Marine Corp Marathon as her DC marathon, which would be a VA marathon by the other group's standard. Cummings also "ran" the Missoula Marathon on crutches with a broken hip - her reported time of 10 hours 39 minutes was four hours past the cutoff necessary for an official result. Sheesh! Do we really need to incorporate all of this into the article to ensure that all POVs are represented? -Location (talk) 22:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Thankfully, I'm oblivious to this "debate". Somehow, distinguishing between the two is moot; and a debate on the differences in "achievement" is silly. After all, neither group includes U.S. territories like Guam, for example. Just imagine a 3rd 50 states club, which does include US territories. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:16, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Best marathon in the world[edit]

I've removed the comment regarding the Stockholm Marathon being ranked the best marathon in the world by the Ultimate Guide to International Marathons. First of all, I have another reference stating that the authors of that book have consistently voted the Big Sur Marathon as the best marathon in the world.[1] Secondly, "best" is open to interpretation and every expert will have their own opinion. Thirdly, without any explanation of why a particular race is "the best", it's information that doesn't really help the reader. Location (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

  1. ^ Benyo, Richard; Henderson, Joe (2002). "B: BAA to Bush, George W.". Running Encyclopedia: The Ultimate Source for Today's Runner. Champaign, Illinois: Human Kinetics. p. 34. ISBN 0736037349, 9780736037341 Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help).

Multiple Marathons section pruning / adding section on competitive marathoners[edit]

IMO, these multiple marathon runners are little more than publicity stunts. The fact that the general public is more familiar with Dean whoever than the fact that Shalane Flanagan finishing 2nd @ NY is sad. The fact that this article has a long section on "multiple marathoners" and no prose section of famous marathoners is sad. I probably won't do more than whine, but it would be nice if a new section about notable, competitive marathoners could be added, and the multiple one trimmed. Thank you --CutOffTies (talk) 17:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I've heard serious marathoners say: "If you can't go fast, go long." The MM-thing is the new version: "If you can't go fast, do a lot of short ones." The notable marathoners already have articles that highlight their achievements, however, working some of them into the historical context of the event would be nice. The MM section appears to use quite a few primary sources, too. That should be rectified. Location (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Image for the 1896 marathon[edit]

1896 Olympic marathon

If anyone can find a better/older source for the image on the right, it would be very helpful in identifying the runners and providing a more accurate caption. LIFE magazine calls this image "Marathon Runners in Training in 1896". "Training" is the key word. Location (talk) 20:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

From my own little investigations, it appears that none of the three are either Spiridon Louis, Kharilaos Vasilakosany or any of the foreign runners. Therefore, it cannot be an image from the race itself. as there was at no point three leading Greek runners, who are clearly some 15/20 seconds ahead of the pack behind. I would suggest that this entirely matches up with LIFE's caption of it being a training run. SFB 20:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
FYI: I would need to get the translator out to figure out these captions at our counterpart Wikis: Kharilaos Vasilakos, Ioannis Lavrentis. Location (talk) 20:45, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
The Danish one says: "The marathon run at the 1896 Olympic Games with Vasilakos in the centre". The German one says "The 1896 Olympic marathon (identity of the three runners is unknown)." Not a great deal of help... SFB 16:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I'll see if I can find other images on Vasilakos to verify that assertion. Unfortunately, this image (along with what I believe to be misinformation) is being grabbed by the other Wikis, then being spread all over the place. Location (talk) 16:46, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Per the Getty Images website: "1896: Three athletes in training for the marathon at the Olympic Games in Athens" by Burton Holmes. Location (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I have updated the caption to reflect the above. We have a reliable source indicating that this is a photograph of athletes in training for the 1896 marathon, but no reliable sources stating that it is from the 1896 marathon itself. Location (talk) 19:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

@Location: I am looking into the image and also Charilaos Vasilakos. The link you give above for LIFE magazine is no longer good. If the page has moved, I cannot find it. Do you have a working link for that? Thanks. Bammesk (talk) 03:08, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@Bammesk: I'm sorry, but I have no idea of where LIFE may have moved the photo or whether it is accessible online. I believe the Getty Images link, which notes the photograph's "author", is the most authoritative description that I found. Because of that, I do not think the current caption in Charilaos Vasilakos accurate. Cheers! - Location (talk) 03:22, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
@Location: I understand and didn't / don't mean to question your action. It is best to be cautious and remove false info from wikipedia. Looking into it I found that Vasilakos has an exhibit at this museum: [1] and looking at the slide show at the bottom of the page, one of the images on the wall positively identifies him as the middle runner in our image. I don't have all the answers. I am looking into it and I am trying to be cautious too. Bammesk (talk) 03:35, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
About Getty image description, they are an authority on images, but they are not much of an authority on the subject of history or sports as an stand alone subject. When it comes to novice translations or automated/google translations, words like "training", "qualifying", "preliminary" are sometimes used interchangeably by mistake. I am not saying Getty information is wrong, but it is not a lot. Bammesk (talk) 03:46, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
@Bammesk: Good find with the museum exhibit. I imagine that it is likely an authoritative source for identifying the middle runner as Vasilakos. My own opinion is that whatever description Burton Holmes gave to the photograph has accompanied it to whoever is now the rightful owner of the photo. - Location (talk) 04:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Louis Marks??[edit]

The article contains a picture and caption of Louis Marks. Who??!! There is no other reference to him in the article and there is nothing about him in Wikipedia as a whole. Can we take this image off as it adds little to the article as a whole. --hydeblake (talk) 09:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

FYI there is a bit of information about him and the race here Chicago_Marathon#History --CutOffTies (talk) 10:38, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
And yet there's nothing about him on this page, except this one photo that says something that doesn't make sense, unless you look at an unlinked page and no page about him at all. Surely there should either be a reference to him on the page and a page about him, or a different photo! --hydeblake (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I would be OK with removing this image from the page since it appears elsewhere and there is nothing terribly remarkable about Marks to indicate that it should also be here. Location (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Marathon world record progression[edit]

For the Wikipedia regulars, this article and Marathon world record progression will need to be watched due to Mutai's mark at Boston which was set on a non-record eligible course. Location (talk) 16:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Haile Gebrselassie/Geoffrey Mutai[edit]

What is the deal with the comment under the Haile Gebrselassie image: Geoffrey Mutai's mark is NOT a world record as it was set on a point-to-point course with drop.? If this is true then the Mutai record should be struck. 195.241.156.43 (talk) 16:40, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Mutai's mark is the fastest marathon ever run, but it will not considered a "world record" by the IAAF. Today's race is a perfect example of why the IAAF rules regarding records are in place. There is huge net drop at Boston, plus the point-to-point nature of the course allows them to take advantage of the tailwind. Location (talk) 16:42, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree! I have tried to delete the entry of the Boston time on a number of times today - but someone keeps posting it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.153.228 (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Please make sure the information matches the references. The IAAF does include Boston marks in their top list (which is different that their world records lists), so Mutai's mark will probably be there within the next 24 to 48 hours. Location (talk) 17:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course the next question is if the wiki entry should be the fastest ten times or the fastest ten people. Haile Gebrselassie has the two top times as of now and one other in the top ten. So should the list be the actual ten fastest times (as per IAAF standards list)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.153.228 (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The list is the fastest ten people. Given that the IAAF has already updated yesterday's results from London, they will likely update it with the Boston results in the next 24-48 hours. Location (talk) 01:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Then I would suggest no one edit the list until we see the listings at the IAAF site get updated. I would also suggest that something be used to indicate the current WR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.153.228 (talk) 06:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Good luck with those suggestions! Location (talk) 13:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
lol, thanks 72.161.153.228 (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Multiple Marathons...A little self serving[edit]

The Multiple Marathons section appears to be quite self-serving. How many of these "records" are notable? Additionally, there are some "claims" in there that cannot be verified. The section should be cut significatly to only those notable incidents and actually dicuss more in detail the concept of multiple marathons. Arzel (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I concur. Hammersbach (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Unless someone really objects I am going to start weeding out some of these “multiples”. The “multiples” I am starting with are those that deal with claims of running the distance vs. actually running in sanctioned races on certified courses. I agree with Arzel that there is an issue of verifiability. Hammersbach (talk) 13:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Health risks[edit]

I'm interested in learning more about the health risks associated with running other than minor sprains. Does anyone know or is familiar with cancer and degenerative illness rates of runners versus non runners? Are there any diseases that runners are more suseptable to?Shimmeryshad27 (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shimmeryshad27 (talkcontribs) 21:17, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Mixed fields[edit]

Just read about the IAF disregarding times set in mixed fields. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/sep/20/marathon-iaaf-womens-world-records

Should we include this somewhere in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.23.85.168 (talk) 10:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

It could be very useful. Hertz1888 (talk) 10:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Once the IAAF puts something in writing that we can all access, the best place would likely be Marathon world record progression#Criteria for record eligibility. Women's mixed field performances, just like performances at Boston, are still legitimate. They are just not eligible for world record consideration. Location (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Calories and kilocalories[edit]

The way in which the food industry misuses calories and kilocalories is legendary - they have used the word "calorie" when they really mean a kilocalorie (In physics and chemistry 1 calorie = the energy required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by 1°C). When doing calculations, it is best to ignore calories and work enmtirely with joules, then back-calculate if neccessary. I visited [ http://firstyear.chem.usyd.edu.au/calculators/food_energy.shtml this site] and worked out my daily energy requirements. The answer came out as 7678 kJ (or 7.8 MJ) which is not far off the 8 MJ mentioned in the article. Back-calculating using the factor {{{1}}}, one gets back to about 1800 kcal. For the record, EU food labeling regulations requires that one uses the physics and chemistry definition of the calories, not the food industry definition, so what the food industry used to call "a calorie" must be labelled as a "kcal".

I don't know what the US food industry uses, but the use of joules (or rather MJ in this case) is in line with WP:MOSNUM. Martinvl (talk) 08:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Merge - The Oprah line[edit]

I propose that the information at The Oprah line be merged into a section here. The bulk of the article is devoted to discussion of the increase and effect of slow marathon runners. Such an issue would be better treated (and more broadly discussed) here rather than via a relatively obscure and American-centric term. SFB 20:03, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

No. Let's not sully this article by including what you refer to a "relatively obscure" term. Hammersbach (talk) 03:17, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Radcliffe and Makau pictures[edit]

Holder of the women's marathon world record, Paula Radcliffe
Patrick Makau is recognized by the International Association of Athletics Federations as the current holder of the men's world record

Temporary remove. Will return images into the article. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:24, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Removing advice, how-to, external-website linking[edit]

I think the paragraph & external links starting with "Training programs can be found at the websites" has no place at Wikipedia. AFAIK, Wikipedia's purely of an Encyclopedic nature; not a help/advice/how-to site. At the very least, I think it should be reformatted into "Further Reading" I'm sure of this, but not so 'forward' to remove it myself. Torydude (talk) 12:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Correct, WP is not a how-to site. However, we're not giving advice, only noting that it is available, and where. What you see is the vestige of a formerly lengthy section replete with "you should do such-and-such" advice, which was edited out some time ago. As I recall, there was considerable discussion, and what remains is per editorial consensus at that time. Hertz1888 (talk) 13:56, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
The aforementioned discussion is still on this talk page. I still would like to see the information moved to Running (sport) since most of it is not unique to the marathon, but I will abide by consensus. Location (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

IAAF top 10 lists[edit]

There are some issues regarding the recent additions that have been discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Athletics#Records and top ten lists. Location (talk) 22:39, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

True distance of the 1908 Marathon[edit]

Can it be claimed that the 1908 Olympic Marathon was really 42.195 km if in fact according to the book by John Bryant “The Marathon Makers,”, the course was mis-measured and the first mile when remeasured came up 159 m short? Thus the real course length was only 42.036 km and the present course length is not the same as that of the 1908 Olympic Marathon no matter how much it may be intended.

The actual course length for 1908 should be changed to reflect what it really is and not what it was intended to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.105.199.216 (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

John Disley makes a compelling case that this is true, however, from what I read he used maps and photographs to "remeasure" the first mile... not the entire course. I think a blurb or footnote on this is welcome, but I don't think it's enough to unequivocally state that the distance was, in fact, 42.036 km. They didn't have Jones Counters, so maybe the rest of the course was long for all we know. Location (talk) 15:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

The actual course path is known to this day, so it would not be impossible for the entire course to be remeasured. And as possible as it might be for the course to be long to compensate for the first mile (1600 m) it is also possible it could also be short. Courses today are measured long by 1 m/km in order to compensate for the possibility of being too short, but never too long. Since this was not done in 1908, it is more likely the rest of the course is not longer, but shorter.68.105.199.216 (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree with all of that, but it is not a compelling argument that "the real course length was only 42.036 km". We need to accept two premises to state unequivocally that the course is/was 42.036 km: 1) the distance from the start to Barnespool Bridge was initially measured inaccurately but has now been measured accurately AND 2) the distance from Barnespool Bridge to the finish (i.e. the "rest of the course" in the aforementioned post) was measured accurately. On one hand, you are saying: "They screwed up the first mile, but got the remaining 26 right." On the other, you are acknowledging the point I was trying to make in that the "rest of the course" could be off, too. Until there is more published about this in the future, I think the blurb you've added to the article is a fine way to draw attention to a possible discrepancy. (BTW: I'm aware of the SCPF in that I created the Wikipedia stub on it and included it in this article about two years ago.) Location (talk) 05:46, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Multiple "marathons"[edit]

An IP editor has restored a portion of the "Multiple marathons" section with the comment that The original reason for the removal was "Impresssive but not really what this article/section is about." After re-reading the article/section, it seems to be very much about it, so reinstating. I am unable to find the original insertion or its removal. The portion pertains to a pair of runners who, it says, "completed a full marathon of 26.2 miles every day for 32 consecutive days" in Ireland. No claim is made in the sources that these were certified, competitive races, and it is extremely dubious such would be available within any one country on 32 consecutive days. Likely, then, they ran (not raced) the marathon distance. It is not a record-breaking instance of multiple marathon-distance running; we have better examples of that. Moreover, the sources cited are non-reliable: two are book promotions (one a self-promotion) and the third is a blog. I have removed the portion. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:16, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the removal. I'm both the original writer of the entry you mention and the editor who reinstated it. Nowhere in this section I see a reference to certified and competitive races. Quite the contrary, besides other entries stating a very high number of consecutive races that I hardly can imagine were certified and competitive events, I also see running the distance for charity in several of the entries, some entries mentioning the use of hand bikes instead of running the distance (which I can only imagine wouldn't be a certified race, either) and I see entries where you can pretty clearly see it was a special organized event and not a certified race from the presented references themselves (e.g., current ref. 92, http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/more-sports/alberta-man-55-runs-250-marathons-for-charity/article1854307/.) If the issue are the references presented, I'm pretty sure others can be selected form a simple Google search, e.g., http://www.autismireland.ie/news-events/399/458/. That's why I said the entry seemed adequate for the section (that, or other entries should be cleaned up and the terms clarified, IMHO.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.22.144.127 (talk) 22:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
For me, the most important point in Hertz1888's explanation is that running 26.2 miles every day for 32 consecutive days (i.e. your proposed addition of information) pales in comparison to 26.2 miles every day for 365 consecutive days (i.e. the article's current information). Both are amazing feats, but only one is really worthy of inclusion in the article. Location (talk) 23:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The article currently cites a BBC article stating that Amy Hughes' 53 consecutive marathons bested the men's and women's records for consecutive marathons.[2] Good for her, but the BBC apparently didn't read their own report that Stefaan Engels ran 365 consecutive marathons[3] or the claim that Ricardo Abad had 607 straight. Do we strike the claim of a reliable source as it conflicts with other reliable sources? - Location (talk) 03:46, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I have opened an RfC in Talk:Amy Hughes#RfC: Record for multiple marathons. - Location (talk) 15:22, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Record for multiple marathons[edit]

Amy Hughes was recently created, and Marathon#Multiple marathons was recently updated, to reflect reports that Amy Hughes set a "world record" for most marathons run on consecutive days (53). I believe that this feat received so much coverage because Guinness World Records notes the record to be 52 for men and 17 for women. As I mentioned above, this is problematic in that reliable sources reported in 2011 that Stefaan Engels ran 365 consecutive marathons in 2011 (e.g. ESPN, CNN, NPR); other non-English sources have reported that Richard Bottram ran 365 back in 2006-2007 and Ricardo Abad as running 150 consecutive in 2009 and 500 consecutive in from 2010 to 2012. And some sources even have reports that contradict their earlier reports (e.g. see BBC report on Hughes vs. BBC report on Engels; see Independent report on Hughes vs. Independent report on Engels). Given the contradiction in reliable sources, I am wondering how this should be handled in Amy Hughes and elsewhere. - Location (talk) 15:15, 17 July 2015 (UTC) edited 05:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

IMO, the RfC should be at Talk:Marathon not here, as that page has more views, and has the main issue. I believe that she shouldn't be credited as world-record holder, as no reliable sources say she is- the Guinness Record is 52 and 17, but no source says Guinness ratified this attempt. I didn't intend to write that they were the record holder for this very reason, and have therefore removed it- IMO, it shouldn't be readded. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:46, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
@Location: Moved to here per Joseph's request to centralise. I think a reasonable way around this would be to directly quote Guinness to say what they have as the world record and follow that with (our best interpretations of) statements of more numerous achievements, saying who the source is. Where sources are messy, it's best to out them as the source of confusion and allow the reader to compare and contrast within that context. SFB 00:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
@Sillyfolkboy: We can do this here, but I believe the better place is at Amy Hughes in that her notability is dependent on the claim reiterated in reliable sources that she set a Guinness World Record. If we do as Joseph2302 states and ignore that claim, then there is no reason to have her mentioned in this article at all. I am a bit uncomfortable inserting: "Despite the report of Hughes' streak, Stefaan Engels was recognized for running 365 consecutive marathons in 2011." It sounds a bit like OR. - Location (talk) 05:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
@Location: If your concern extends into notability of Amy Hughes, then it would probably be better to arrange that discussion at "Articles for Deletion" instead. I moved the conversation on grounds that the question relates to coverage in this article, but I'm not opposed to a move back if you feel this is not an appropriate venue. SFB 14:20, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I have no doubt that that the article on Amy Hughes would survive an Afd. - Location (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - can you please state the RfC in a more straightforward way, showing what information should be included/should not be included? Unfamiliar editors like myself who respond to RfCs may be confused as to what exactly you are asking. We should be able to respond with a simple yes/no, not ponder "how this should be handled here and elsewhere." Thanks. МандичкаYO 😜 04:38, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
@Wikimandia: If I were able to structure this as an !vote I would. Perhaps there is some confusion because the Rfc was moved from the article on which it was originally placed (i.e. Amy Hughes). I have updated the Rfc on this page to make this clearer. As I attempted to point out above, Ricardo Abad, Richard Bottram, Stefaan Engels, and Amy Hughes all have reliable sources that back-up the respective claims that each has run the most consecutive marathons or have broken the record of Akinori Kusuda's Guinness World Record. I am looking for ideas on how to address reliable sources that contradict other reliable sources without resorting to original research. - Location (talk) 05:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
OK, now it makes more sense. Thanks for tweaking the intro. So basically reliable sources are offering conflicting info? Unfortunately some RS can be wrong, so in some cases you may need to do your own fact checking. I don't think that's OR. Or you could always just say, "some sources say X, other sources say Y" and leave it at that. This is a common situation in historical articles (eg "Some sources say the Prince was born in late 1644, others say early 1645" etc). МандичкаYO 😜 05:29, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. According to a report in the London Evening Standard one month later, [Rob Young] was up to 183 consecutive at the "marathon distance" and was "well ahead of schedule to break the unofficial record of 366 consecutive marathons in 365 days." "Guinness has refused to sanction Mr Young’s attempt as official, even though he is accompanied by at least two other runners on every marathon to validate the distance."[4] This brings up a few additional issues. Was Hughes running marathons (i.e. organized races) or was she running the marathon distance with a chosen group of others? I suspect the later. The lede of Marathon may need to be updated to indicate that many people refer to the distance, not necessarily the race, as a marathon. Also, what is "official" depends on the context. Those of us familiar with "the sport of athletics" understand that official world records in the sport are ratified by the IAAF, and "consecutive marathons" is not a record they recognize. Other people tend to be much more familiar with pop culture's Guinness World Records and call them "official". It makes sense to me that claims to world records should be clear as to whether a record is official or unofficial and who is stating that the record is official or unofficial. Given all the claims and reporting on those claims, I am starting to wondering if there is enough material to create World record for most consecutive marathons similar to Marathon world record progression and related articles. - Location (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Following on from previous discussion on this same topic

At no point does Amy Hughes record stand as her page recently states / Marathon#Multiple marathons was recently updated, to reflect reports that Amy Hughes set a "world record" for most marathons run on consecutive days (53). In the last 5 years 6 people including Stefaan Engels plus a husband and wife have also ran 365 consecutive marathons as well. To appoint this as such they have to all be counted as Official marathons in official races and doing them on your own does not count. [Rob Young - marathon man uk] did end up doing 239 marathons in a row before injury but states 'that these are mixed between official and unofficial marathons', however from January to June 2015 [Rob Young - marathon man uk] did win a 117 back to back Official Marathon race series across USA (Trans-Con) and was "well ahead of schedule to break the unofficial record of 366 consecutive marathons in 365 days". To that the final total that Mr Young did do was 370 Marathons in 365 days with over 240 of those being official.

Amy Hughes was running marathons and did complete 53 in 53 days however all of them classify as unofficial marathons (i.e. not organized races)

To classify what is "official" depends on the context, however it should state in accordance to the 100 marathon club rules that an Official marathon should have at least 25 finishes and be certified as an Official marathon race. As for one of the previous comments there is enough material to create World record for most consecutive marathons and that of Mr Young's 117 back to back official marathons would be in my opinion the holder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.173.221.59 (talkcontribs) 19:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Very confused, so a reliable source can be a newspaper writing a fluff piece, without any actual evidence, just incredulously reporting whatever someone says. Well that completely undermines the credibility of Wikipedia. Amy Hughes has consistently blocked anyone from social media who asked for evidence, she has not presented any credible evidence she ran 53 marathons in 53 days, hence no Guinness record, but as long as some lazy reporter can regurgitate her press release it counts as being third party corroboration.

timing of runners[edit]

How are marathon runners timed since they can't all cross the start line at once? Is the first one over the finish line always the fastest time / winner? I read that the Olympics use RFID tags. Is that common?Robinrobin (talk) 16:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

RFID tag timing, popularly known as "chip timing" is very common in running races, at various distances, even 5K races. Finish times are generally recorded from chip timing. However, awards are usually given according to order of crossing the finish line, or "gun time." SlowJog (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

External links[edit]

Following on from Hertz1888's reversion of a recent inclusion in the external links because it was a blog, I reviewed all the links and found that they are mostly blogs and one a link to a private YouTube video. I am therefore removing the external links section altogether. However, if there is a good reason to include an external link, perhaps we should discuss it here first. The article is already well-referenced with authoritative sources. FunkyCanute (talk) 08:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Given the potential for spam abuse, I agree that it's probably a wise idea to discuss ELs here. I cannot see the need to post everyone's collection of race calendars here. I also wanted to point out that the link from the Association of Road Racing Statisticians - http://www.arrs.net/MaraList.htm from - is not a blog, however, I'm not sure that we need to point to a comprehensive list of marathons ever run. Location (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Top 10?[edit]

The article says " The marathons of Berlin, Boston, Chicago, London, New York City and Tokyo form the biennial World Marathon Majors series, awarding $500,000 annually to the best overall male and female performers in the series. In 2006, the editors of Runner's World selected a "World's Top 10 Marathons",[38] in which the Amsterdam, Honolulu, Paris, Rotterdam, and Stockholm marathons were featured along with the five mentioned above." However the 5 above are six and the total thus 11. Something isn't quite right. -- SGBailey (talk) 12:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Tokyo was recently added to the WMM series. I've reworded for clarity. SFB 17:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Olympic marathon and closing ceremony[edit]

"Since the modern games were founded, it has become a tradition for the men's Olympic marathon to be the last event of the athletics calendar, with a finish inside the Olympic stadium, often within hours of, or even incorporated into, the closing ceremonies." We really should have an example of this incorporation. I don't recall that happening (usually the marathon is in the morning and the closing ceremony in the evening). 85.226.204.113 (talk) 10:37, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I have tagged the sentence with {{citation needed}}. - Location (talk) 13:52, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

History of women's long-distance running[edit]

I suggest that User:Walkjogrun/History of Women Running be merged (carefully, with work) into Marathon#Inclusion_of_women. I see no better place to add coverage of women long-distance running. The coverage of the subtopic appears dominated by marathon running. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: I think anything related to the marathon is already in the article. - Location (talk) 20:19, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

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Origin[edit]

I added to the Origin of the Marathon using an article and linked it also to a wiki page based on the Battle of Marathon. Bvjones1 (talk) 23:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)bvjones1[1]

Quote[edit]

There's a quote from Emil Zátopek that I think would suit this article quite nicely:

If you want to win something, run the 100 meters. If you want to experience something, run the marathon.

I'll leave it to regular editors to decide if and/or where it's appropriate. Nzd (talk) 11:59, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

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  1. ^ Creasy. (1848). Battle of marathon. Bentley's Miscellany, 23, 54. Retrieved from http://login.ezproxy1.lib.asu.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy1.lib.asu.edu/docview/1310853606?accountid=4485
  2. ^ Wallechinsky, David; Loucky, Jaime. The Complete Book of the Olympics 2012 Edition. Aurum. p. 138.