Talk:Margaret Macpherson Grant

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GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Margaret Macpherson Grant/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 21:48, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Assessing as a favour to a cheeky queue jumper; I shall expect (generous) payment in shortbread. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:48, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

  • The paraphrasing of some of the sources is a little close in places. Very easy to do when you have your head in a source all day. Could you look at this and tweak the - non-quote - bits in red. Eg "whom she had probably never met" (which is a direct lift from the source) to something like 'of whom she had little or no knowledge'; etc
Good point - I should really have run Earwig myself before nominating. I'll get into this in a couple of hours and post here when I'm done, thanks. GirthSummit (blether) 09:45, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
No problem; and no rush. I have been caught out that way myself. I use a checklist immediately pre-nom to try and cut down on that sort of thing. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Symbol confirmed.svg Done - the only hits Earwig gets now are a couple of direct quotes, a couple of very short general phrases that I think are probably OK (and would be awkward to avoid), and a couple of items in the bibliography which are mentioned by name online. Thanks for the link to that checklist by the way - I'll bookmark that for future reference! GirthSummit (blether) 11:27, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • You have sized the images in px=, they should be in upright=. Let me know if you would like me to make the change.
  • Optional: To my eye all of the images are small. Personally I would also crop out most of the grass in the second to make the hall stand out more.
  • Bibliography: Jervis needs an OCLC - 24298898. And the title should be in title case. I realise that it's not in the original; doesn't matter.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Lang: the title should be in title case.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Ditto cite 9 ("terrace").  Done SusunW (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Each entry in an infobox should commence with an upper case letter.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

  • "Born to a country doctor" Given that they didn't have female doctors in those days, you may want to rephrase or expand on that. PS if her father was a surgeon, as you state later, he would have taken grave offence at being described as "a country doctor"'
Changed lede to say he was a surgeon.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:27, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "to Annie (née Grant) and Alexander Macpherson. Her father, Alexander," The second "Alexander" is probably superfluous.
Removed  Done SusunW (talk) 19:27, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • The non-chronological order of the first paragraph of "Early life and family" makes it difficult to follow.
Relocated sentence about marriage and birth of older brother.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:27, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "where he died in 1852, leaving Macpherson an only child" I realise that Macpherson would technically be a child, but as she would be aged 18, the mental image it calls to mind jars a little. Possible rephrasing?
as the only surviving sibling  Done SusunW (talk) 19:29, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "received compensation for his claim for the loss of the slaves as business assets" Pedant's corner. He didn't receive compensation for his claim. Possibly he claimed compensation for the loss ...  Done SusunW (talk) 19:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "but their files do not record his parents' names" I don't see why this is relevant.
Modified to say "Green Grant attended Eton and was described in his father's will as his adopted son"  Done SusunW (talk) 19:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "in his own will" Delete "own". (Whose else would it be?)
See above modification.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "equivalent to £30,000,000 in 2016" Why 2016? And it is usual to insert a footnote explaining the basis of the conversion. Eg as in footnote 1 of Battle of Neville's Cross. As you are relying on a secondary source it would be helpful to footnote their basis for the conversion. (I assume that it provides one.)
  • "The ensuing court case" This comes a little out of nowhere, with no indication as to the parties, cause etc. How about something along the lines of 'Her previous female companion, now disinherited, sued and the ensuing ... '?
I'm assuming you are talking about in the lede, so modified it as you suggested.  Done SusunW (talk) 19:41, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Oops. Yes Sorry. I was rereading to see if I had missed anything and stuck it on the end.
Nice work. Are you OK with 'uprighting' the images? I know that it is your speciality area.
LOL, Gog the Mild I avoided the photos like the plague. I also have zero clue about conversion of currency, so I didn't answer that. Girth Summit can have the honors :) SusunW (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Important: I hope that the pair of you are planning on promptly taking this to FAC? Because I warn you now, if you're not I intend to steal it, file off the serial numbers, and nominate it myself.

No idea, you know, never done it. SusunW (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of which, how come Inter-Allied Women's Conference hasn't turned up at FAC yet? It is in better shape than half of the stuff that goes through and you have already done 70-80% of the work in the (rather horrid) ACR.

Well, the update is that I have decided to do it, now that my real life has settled down a bit. I am toying with whether the attendees should be in a table, but reading FAC criteria I have no clue if that is good or not. Maybe you can advise me on my talk page. SusunW (talk) 20:28, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

I will continue the review of this tomorrow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:01, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Wow - lots of great work already, thanks both! So, the currency conversion thing is a template. I had a discussion about this with The Rambling Man while working on the GA nom for St Margaret's Church (the church that she had built for the orphanage). There's no uncontroversial way to convert values - there are various different websites you can use and they all use different algorithms, weighting things differently and arriving at very contrasting figures - there isn't a right answer. TRM suggested just using our own in-house template as the least controversial method - unfortunately, it automatically converts to 2016 values (although presumably at some point someone will update it and the figures will automatically update, which will cut down on maintenence). I'd be happy to consider alternative options if you would like to suggest them. GirthSummit (blether) 21:37, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
Following up with more comments:
  • here is a link to the discussion I had with TRM about the use of the {{inflation}} template.
  • With regard to the image sizes - I would be happy with a crop of the picture of the house - is there an easy way to do that within the article, or do I need to crop it in MSPaint and re-upload the new image?
  • I'm afraid I don't know how px versus upright works. Can you point me at the guideline - I'd be happy for you to make the change, but it's probably worth me finding out how to do it myself for future reference. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 09:54, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Image size: See MOS:IMGSIZE, third bullet point. If you remove px=xxx and replace it with upright= then the image will automatically size to fit each readers preset preferences. (If you look at, for example, Crécy campaign in edit mode you will see a variety of upright sizes, and can probably work out why they are what they are for most of them.)
  • Crop: SusunW set me, a little while ago, the job of hunting down the crop tool - Commons crop tool. I found it straight forward, but shout if you don't.
Symbol confirmed.svg Done (I think!) - useful tool, thanks. I had a quick play with the upright= thing, but the image became massive, so I was doing something wrong - I'll have another play with that ASAP, and look at explaining the inflation thing somehow. GirthSummit (blether) 11:20, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I put upright=1.3 in and, to me, it looked good. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:49, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Gog the Mild, I must have messed up the syntax when I tried it - I tried upright=1 and the image more than filled my screen! Yes, the size looks good to me now, I'm happy with that. GirthSummit (blether) 15:26, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Inflation: I am aware that there is a wide range of views and no set policy. I have my own opinions, but that is not really relevant. 2016 is acceptable, it is not as if there has been galloping inflation since then. BUT, it would be helpful to explain the basis on which the figure is arrived at. (The inflation calculator I used in Neville's Cross comes with a link to a page explaining this and a cite, which is why I use it. (It also automatically both updates and adjusts each year.) But there are no doubt a host of other entirely acceptable alternatives.) Gog the Mild (talk) 10:41, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks SusunW - I was just figuring out what I'd done wrong there - I think I had it cracked, but you beat me to it! Is there a way to condense all these into a single note though - they're all using the same conversion template, one note referring to all three ought to be sufficient? GirthSummit (blether) 15:25, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Girth Summit I literally hate the "coding aspect" of WP, it is not my area of expertise. I just ask, and when I get a solution that works, I copy it over and over again. No idea how to make it one note, sorry. SusunW (talk) 15:30, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Gog the Mild, maybe you know a magic way of doing this? GirthSummit (blether) 15:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Sadly not. In Neville's Cross, my first FA, there were five sums which I expressed in today's money; I attached an explanation to the first and simply left the rest. No one objected, nor has since, to this aspect of presenting inflation adjusted sums. It seems to be treated a little like a Wikilink. (I assume that you are aware of Template:Inflation/fn?)
I have inserted an upright into the image of the house, slightly increasing its size. This is mostly for demonstration purposes, so feel free to change it back if you are happy with the current image size.
As you have used Clark, Gregory (2017) to calculate inflation you could, if you wished, link on the link you provide and get a figure for 2019, rather than 2016. Ah, you are ahead of me. Good stuff.

Break 1[edit]

  • "becoming acquainted with Temple's friends in the area" I assume this means London, although it could mean Wiltshire. I would prefer a specific area replaced "area".
Symbol confirmed.svg The source wasn't specific - I assumed London, but I'm not certain, so I've changed it to 'her social circle'.
  • "Macpherson Grant placed a ring upon Temple's finger" I believe that it was the ring finger of her left hand. If so, it may be worth mentioning.
  • "again, had she ever had any" Optional: 'again, if she had had any at the time of her death'?
  • "She provided the organ at for Inverness Cathedral"
  • "to her Edinburgh solicitor" "her" being Temple or Macpherson Grant?
  • "In response, Keir drew up a deed of revocation" I have missed something. How is the revocation a "response" to a notification of a change of address?
It isn't a response to a change of address, but rather someone who might give his accounting a more proper scrutiny, to my reading. It doesn't actually *say* he was hoodwinking Grant, but it does say she was not a businesswoman, which was "troublesome". He had been sending the account statements to Grant. You get the idea that since Temple was not going to be there to help Grant, she wanted her to be protected by Mr. Falconer. SusunW (talk) 18:19, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I think Girth Summit satisfactorily changed this section. SusunW (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Back to the lead "She had just revoked the will" Given that ir was six months earlier, I am not sure about the "just".
  • "interred in the Aberlour church yard in a burial aisle" Aisles in churches are usually indoors, rather than in the church yard.
Far be it for me to know diddly about churches, but the source says: "A burial aisle, in the Perpendicular style of architecture, erected over the bodies of her father and mother by the late Miss Macpherson-Grant of Aberlour, adds considerably to the beauty of the churchyard. Here is also laid herself…"p 183 SusunW (talk) 22:59, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Agreed - from my reading, it sounds like it's some sort of Gothic memorial structure in the churchyard; possibly not actually a burial aisle in the strictest sense, but without a source calling it something else I think we have to go with that. GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "argued that Macpherson Grant had been coerced into signing the deed of revocation" Any more information on this? Eg, by whom and/or for what reason?
See explanation above about Keir. SusunW (talk) 18:19, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I inserted "by Falconer" ... "because he was aware of her declining health". Again, the actual reason is implied, not stated. SusunW (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
SusunW - did you mean 'Keir' at this point? My impression was that it was Keir who visited her and did the coercing, because he didn't want Falconer coming between him and Macpherson Grant. GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh lordy, you are absolutely correct, Girth Summit Fixed it, so sorry. SusunW (talk) 14:46, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "William Grant of Wester Elchies" Who was he and why might he care about Macpherson Grant's buildings?
So, going purely on the name, he seems to be a rare example of a member of the Grant family who wasn't called Alexander. The Grants were locally powerful and numerous - Wester Elchies was a nearby estate and house, and my guess is that William is a some sort of cousin of Macpherson Grant. I'll do a bit more research to see whether I can establish a clearer link. GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I can't find anything more about thie William Grant unfortunately. I think it's highly likely that he is the son of James William Grant (astronomer), but I can't find any sources to confirm that, or to confirm a direct family link between him and Margaret Macpherson Grant. We could perhaps describe him in the article as "another member of the Grant family and owner of a nearby estate"? GirthSummit (blether) 12:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I went back to Shaw and about Wester Elchies he says it was in the Grant family for over 150 years, passing from Alexander Grant to his son Robert, who died in 1803 and another son Charles, who died in 1828. As there were no other heirs in that line it passed to James William Grant (of Bengal), who died in 1865. It passed to his son William Grant of Carron, who died in 1865 (which is a wrong date) and thereafter passed to Henry Alexander Grant in 1877. Henry Alexander was still in residence in 1882 at the time of Shaw's writing.p 111 So looking at then James William and Margaret (née Wilson) Grant's family, I found William, born 16 June 1809 in Calcutta, Bengal India[1] who died 18 August 1877[2] and is buried at St Margaret’s.[3]. He did not apparently die in 1882, but he did die after MacPhereson Grant, and in the same year that Henry Alexander inherited. In light of the statement that Grant of Elchies owned the old ruined church at Aberlour, which burned in 1861 and which he bought from the other legatees (Shaw 182), I am positive this is the correct William. SusunW (talk) 16:16, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "The Proctors were too impoverished to care for the estate" Given that they had just come into wealth beyond their dreams, that could do with some explaining.
Would that I could, but the source doesn't say anything other than "Her successors were too poor to occupy the mansion house…Fortunately the late Mr. Findlay, proprietor of The Scotsman, purchased the estate".p 73 (Asset rich, cash poor?) SusunW (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not entirely happy with the word 'impoverished' actually - it is a bit jarring when we are saying they have just inherited vast wealth. My guess here is that, with Macpherson Grant's wealth split between a number of cousins, no individual one of them could afford the upkeep of the house and estate in Aberlour. (Death duty may have played a part in this as well - not really something I know much about, but I think they could swallow up a lot of ready cash from an estate, or even force the heir to choose between mortgaging or selling property if they weren't independently wealthy themselves; this is speculation though without a better source.) I wonder whether we could rephrase this simply to say "The Proctors could not afford to care for the estate..." and leave it at that? GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and changed this sentence a bit - are we happy this is better? GirthSummit (blether) 12:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Girth Summit "unable to afford the expense of maintaining the estate" looks good to me. Yes, it's tough because don't really know why. We can logically see why they might not be able to, but without a source, we can't really say more. SusunW (talk) 14:51, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Is it worth mentioning subsequent uses of Aberlour House?
I'll be happy to add a bit about this into the 'legacy' section - watch this space. GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 Done GirthSummit (blether) 12:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
  • What, if any, is the relationship between the orphanage's chapel and St Margaret's Church?
They're the same thing - St Margaret's Church was the chapel for the orphanage. I'll check through the text and make sure this is clear. GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 Done GirthSummit (blether) 12:57, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 16:56, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I've made a few changes - just typed out a blow-by-blow account of them, but got an edit conflict with SusunW - my fault for taking so long to type it. I've got to dash now, but will come back to this tomorrow - please let me know if you think the stuff I've added about Keir is valid based on the sources, or if I'm treading too close to OR. GirthSummit (blether) 18:35, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
I stopped for the same reason. We are too eager ;) SusunW (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
Since we were stepping on each other's toes (or is that fingers?), I went away until I was sure y'all would be sleeping. Sorry for the earlier confusion Girth Summit. I think between what you cleared before you stopped and what I cleared, we only have a few points outstanding. SusunW (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
No worries SusunW! I've put a few comments above - there are a couple of points I'll try to address later today, would you mind checking the bit where you added 'Falconer' (I think you meant Keir at that point, unless I've misunderstood). Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 06:56, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

OK Gog the Mild, SusunW, I think we've finished the last set of comments, and I've removed the notes from the second and third inflation-adjusted figures. GirthSummit (blether) 16:19, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Girth Summit, didn't want to step on your fingers again. See above section on William Grant. We need to fix his death date and possibly link him to his dad.SusunW (talk) 16:28, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
SusunW It looks like you are correct there - I was probably barking up the wrong tree with regard to the astronomer chap. With regard to the date, looking again at the source, the date of 1882 is just a headline on the charity's website - it doesn't directly state that that is the date he died. It could potentially be the date that they received the funds (which might presumably have been delayed somewhat with a large estate) - this might well be the right person. Do you want to make any changes to the content based on what you've found? GirthSummit (blether) 16:41, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
On it. But you weren't wrong, you were absolutely correct. The astronomer was the guy who lived in Bengal. Give me two shakes. SusunW (talk) 16:46, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Okay, I think I'm done with it, if you agree with the text modifications. SusunW (talk) 16:53, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
SusunW Yep, I'm happy with the changes - great work finding all that. GirthSummit (blether) 17:01, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Gog the Mild Hi - I think SusunW and I believe we've addressed all the outstanding points that we can now. The 'burial aisle' issue is the only thing we haven't really done anything about. Pondering on it a bit more, it occurs to me that Aberlour Church had been destroyed by fire, and was probably a picturesque ruin - this addition might be an external memorial tacked onto the ruins of the church, where a normal burial aisle would have been had the church still been intact.
I wanted to touch on your suggestion about FAC earlier - I can't speak for SusunW, but I for one would be very excited to go ahead with that, having never been involved in FAC and eager to push this as far as I can. Having had a quick look at WP:FAC, I see that it recommends first timers seek the involvement of a mentor before making their first nomination. Your name isn't on the list of mentors, but if you'd be interested I'd be delighted; if not, I had a very positive experience with Josh Milburn when he reviewed my first GA nom, so I might reach out to them when we're done with this GA review. GirthSummit (blether) 18:19, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Break 2[edit]

Comments in random order, sorry.

  • I have switched the image of the church from px to upright. If you don't like the size, feel free to change - it is the same size as the image of the house. Please do not put it back to px.
Thanks - sorry, I forgot to check that image, I should have changed that after you showed me how to do it with the other one. Yes, I'm happy with the new size. GirthSummit (blether) 09:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • SusunW: I have made a note of Inter-Allied Women's Conference and will be rereading and coming back to you with any thoughts regarding preparing it for FAC. I will post my thoughts on tables there.
  • Thank you :) SusunW (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • "burial aisle": you can only go with what your sources say, so fine. Possibly the source also knew diddly about churches, although I like your OR supposition.
  • Keir: the situation is much clearer now. Thanks.
  • "William Grant of Wester Elchies" Good work. The splitting into thematic paragraphs also improves the flow. (And preempts a comment from me.)
  • I was really happy to find that obit that tied it all together nicely. SusunW (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • A last query from me "a partner of her agents at Milne & Co." reads as if "her agents" refers to Temple's. If so, a sentence earlier stating that Temple had been directing Macpherson Grant's business affairs, or had her power of attorney or whatever. If the agents were Macpherson Grant's then a brief explanation of how or why Temple was able to instruct them would be helpful.
  • I added Macpherson Grant's before agents, but I don't think we know why Temple was empowered to do anything. SusunW (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
    SusunW, your change is good. If I remember correctly (I'd have to trawl through the sources again to find where I got this impression from), Temple managed quite a lot of Macpherson Grant's affairs while they lived together - I'm guessing that this was because Macpherson Grant had little interest in account-keeping, and the drinking wouldn't have helped. Again, I think this feeds into the stuff about Keir and Falconer - she knew that Macpherson Grant would be vulnerable after she had left. GirthSummit (blether) 09:51, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, same impression I got. Temple cared for Grant, she tried to keep her from harm. Gee, you know, what couples do ;) SusunW (talk) 12:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Girth Summit: I am not listed as I have only had 13 FAs so far (plus one at FAC) the first of these only 9 months ago, so it seemed premature. Not to mention all of them being between 1333 and 1355; and eleven between 1345 and 1347; you could say that they are a bit specialist. That said, I have listed myself as a possible mentor in a couple of other areas and do a fair bit informally. However, I have no article creation experience of biographies, and you should seriously consider being mentored by an editor who has this area down pat. If, on reflection, you would both like me to mentor you, I would be happy to; if you would rather go with Josh, I shall take no offense.
  • I am always happy to have mentors. Honestly, I would have quit WP my first year had it not been for Montanabw and Dr. Blofeld finding me and helping me. The technical stuff, the entrenchment, the aggressiveness are all things that I find overwhelming, especially over the last year, when I have had so many more real life issues going on. I am still terrified of FA, *especially anything more having to do with photos), but I am willing to give it a go. SusunW (talk) 04:13, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
    Gog the Mild, given the amount of effort you've put in on this article already, I'd be delighted for you to act as mentor here. I hear what you're saying about this being outside of your speclialisation, but after 13FAs I'm sure you're familiar enough with the process, and you've already put a lot of work in on this review. If we get stuck I'm sure we can reach out to Josh or someone else for a steer. GirthSummit (blether) 09:55, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 23:34, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

This is a high quality article, easily meeting the GA standards and I am promoting it. You are no doubt aware that you now have seven days to nominate it for DYK. The assessment process has been as much fun as I have ever had with a GAN, so thanks to both of you. I will take a break for a few days, then come back with some "formal" suggestions for FAC. Meanwhile, I shall put some thoughts down on the talk page - don't take them too seriously, they are by way of scratchpad jottings, but do feel free to throw your own thoughts or responses in. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:50, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much Gog the Mild. Always a pleasure to work with you to improve an article. It was fun to work with you as well Girth Summit. May I list the article on WP:WIG's 2019 targets? SusunW (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I am not sure that permission is required, but SFAICS it meets the criteria. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:24, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Trust me, permission is required. There have been some really unpleasant dustups at both WiR and WiG for listing things without permission. If Girth Summit concurs I'll be happy to add it to our lists there, but would not presume to do so without agreement. SusunW (talk) 13:28, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
SusunW, of course I'd be delighted for you to add it there - I'm pleased to be able to support these projects. Gog the Mild thanks for all your efforts with the review. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on moving forward with improvement to FA, and to working with you both on that. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 14:43, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose (Symbol support vote.svg) 1b. MoS (Symbol support vote.svg) 2a. ref layout (Symbol support vote.svg) 2b. cites WP:RS (Symbol support vote.svg) 2c. no WP:OR (Symbol support vote.svg) 3a. broadness (Symbol support vote.svg)
3b. focus (Symbol support vote.svg) 4. neutral (Symbol support vote.svg) 5. stable (Symbol support vote.svg) 6a. free or tagged images (Symbol support vote.svg) 6b. pics relevant (Symbol support vote.svg)
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked Symbol comment 2.png are unassessed
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 19:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Did you knowDYK comment symbol nomination

This review is transcluded from Template:Did you know nominations/Margaret Macpherson Grant. You may review or comment on the nomination by clicking here.

Margaret Macpherson Grant
Margaret Macpherson Grant
  • ... that the nineteenth-century Scottish heiress Margaret Macpherson Grant (pictured) gave a ring to her female companion Charlotte Temple, and lived with her as if they were married? Source: "Something like a marriage had taken place between them. Each pledged herself to celibacy; Miss Grant ‘married’ Miss Temple, placing on the latter’s marriage-finger a suitable ring" Source - there are various other sources in the article confirming this.
    • ALT1:... that the nineteenth-century Scottish heiress and philanthropist Margaret Macpherson Grant (pictured) died, aged 42, shortly after her female partner had abandoned her to marry a man? Source: "Margaret suffered from paralysis in her legs and died in April 1877, just two weeks before her 43rd birthday." - same source as above, the content about her partner having recently left her is supported by various other sources in the article.

Improved to Good Article status by Girth Summit (talk). Self-nominated at 19:17, 26 September 2019 (UTC).

  • Reviewing
  • Article is new enough, Long enough, neutral and well cited
  • Hooks are short enough, formatted correctly and of general interest. Both supported by inline citations I prefer ALT1
  • Image is PD, has rollover text, is in article
  • QPQ done
  • Symbol confirmed.svg Overall a well written, detailed and informative article. Good to go. Papamac (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

FAC thoughts[edit]

  • For the avoidance of doubt, when I wrote "I have no article creation experience of biographies", I meant at FA. I have navigated 21 BDPs through GAN in the past 18 months, and so have some idea of how they work.
  • Alt text for all images, including the infobox one. See MOS:ALT; or any image in, eg, Battle of Crecy viewed in edit mode, where each will have "|alt=" followed by some text (the "alt text").
  • Consider changing all cites to harv, as I did for one with this diff.
  • Consider inserting a sub section or two into "Adult life".
  • Normally I would suggest posting it to GoCE for a copy edit and polish. Bit as I do a lot of pre-FAC GoCE work, you may prefer giving me permission to run through it. (Obviously, you can revert any changes you don't like.)
  • Any thoughts on another, relevant, image or two? Eg, any of the other people mentioned, the Jamaican estate, a photograph of one of the wills, etc.
  • Insofar as possible the web cites cover all of:
* {{cite web
 |ref=harv }}

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC) Some responses and further thoughts...

  • I for one would be very happy for you to do the GoCE spit and polish Gog - heaven knose my prows could always do with it.
  • Images - I'll be happy to add alt text to the images. In terms of getting more pics, obviously a picture of Temple would be very relevant, and such a thing might exist if we scour the newspaper archives. It would also probably be worth me punting an e-mail off to the Aberlour charity to see whether they might be willing to donate something, perhaps a picture of Jupp (the priest who ran the orphanage), or an image of the orphanage itself before it was demolished. Temple's son's memorial is quite moving, and we might be able to get a picture of that, but perhaps it's too peripheral to the story to be worth including?
Update - I've attempted to add alt text to all the images; the one in the infobox is working for me, but I'm not seeing the text appear when I hover my cursor over the other two pictures. I can't see what I'm doing wrong though - it looks to me like I've copied the formatting correctly from the Battle of Crecy article - is it just my browser misbehaving? (I've also e-mailed the Aberlour charity about images, so we'll see if anything comes of that) GirthSummit (blether) 12:29, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Your alt text looks fine. I had not previously noticed the alt text appearing when the infobox image is hovered on; I thing that that is a bug, not the others not doing so.
  • I'll think about subsections for 'Adult Life' - if I'm honest, when I created that section, it was more of a 'I don't know what else to call this bit' decision than a conscious choice, I agree that it needs breaking up.
I've had a stab at this - if either of you think I've gone too far, or can think of a better way to split this up, please go ahead and edit. GirthSummit (blether) 12:29, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Looks sensible to me.
  • I'd be very happy for all the cites to be Harvard refs, I just don't know what that means. SusunW, if those particular words in that particular order mean anything to you, please go ahead and change anything we need to!
I'll convert them tomorrow and you can see how it's done. I actually prefer it, as you don't have to read "around" the refs to read the text. Was hard for me at first, but now I don't ever use anything else. SusunW (talk) 01:50, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh! I like them refs. I'm like Susun, Harv refs were a real pain the first couple of times; now, when I start work on an existing article, the first thing I do is change the refs to Harv. Note that all page and date ranges should be separated by en dashes, not hyphens. More Wiki-trivia. I have done it, see this diff.
  • I was wondering whether there are some holes in the content that we might be able to fill, particularly with regard to the source of her wealth. I'd like to try and add some information about the Jamaican estates that she owned, and how much income the estates were generating (before and after the slaves were freed), and perhaps give the reader an idea of the number of slaves her uncle owned. Basically, the whole area of slavery in Jamaica contributing to this vast wealth in an out-of-the-way corner of Scotland seems an important and interesting part of her story, and I think we could expand it - but I'm not sure yet whether the sources exist. I know Jim Walvin (this bloke) pretty well, and was thinking about asking whether he might be able to help out with this, since it's his area - do you think that would help the case at FA, or would I just be creating more work for us to do? Depending on what (if anything) I'm able to find, this might be better suited to a separate article about her uncle, which we could obviously link to from this article. Thinking out loud here really, but responses would be welcome. GirthSummit (blether) 00:23, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
I think it'd be cool. It's complicated with all the Alexanders. This branch of the Grant family (See David Grant.See Marianne McKenzie) was in Jamaica for at least 3 generations, but, according to these records, the Alexander who married McKenzie was the son of David Grant. It looks like they left around 1836. But, that would mean that Alexander Green Grant was not the son of our Alexander Grant (son of Janet (née Donaldson) and George Grant), possibly a cousin? SusunW (talk) 06:10, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Girth Summit Now that I've slept on it, were it me, I'd start with the 1854 probate package. Surely it will give his vital info like date of birth, and an inventory of his estate should list all his property. SusunW (talk) 13:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
SusunW, Interesting thought - I think I found his will, here, but I'm on mobile and it's a struggle to read it so not 100% confident it's the right guy. Do you know of a way to get a copy without the watermark, or am I just going have to pay for access? GirthSummit (blether) 13:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Girth Summit wow, they make it "virtually impossible" (pun intended) to see the will. It says you can see it for free at the National Archives. Don't know if that is a possibility, but like you, I cannot see anything, except it is clear there are a bunch of dates in it. SusunW (talk) 14:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Just a thought- could information on other Grants (i.e. all these Alexanders) be added to the Clan Grant page if they are not notable enough for their own page? Then redirects could be created. Thsmi002 (talk) 17:20, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Thsmi002 If we ever figure it out, yes, we need to do that. I spent a whole day sorting out the children of James William Grant, because it seemed to me that it might prevent future confusion like we have had on this article. SusunW (talk) 18:20, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
Information on the Jamaican property MacPherson Grant owned would certainly round out the article nicely. Probably not essential, but it would look good. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:25, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
SusunW, Gog the Mild - I've purchased and downloaded Alexander Grant's will from the National Archives. It's definitely the right person - he's referred to as Alexander Grant, formerly of Jamaica and now of Arlington Street, Middlesex and of the Aberlour Estate in Banffshire, and a section I was able to decipher towards the end includes a sizable provision for Alexander Green Grant (by then a major in the army). The trouble is, I'm finding most of the handwriting very difficult to make out. Are either of you any good at making sense of documents like this? Obviously it's a primary source, but it might help lead us in the right direction in searching for secondary sources if we knew what it said. I'd be happy to e-mail it to either/both of you if you're interested. GirthSummit (blether) 15:20, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Girth Summit I have read at least a million archaic documents in my time, lots of wills and land records. I'll be happy to take a look if you send it to me. And yes, I get that it's a primary document, but typically outside of Wikipedia, those are more reliable than secondary sources for historic figures. SusunW (talk) 15:25, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
SusunW, great - I'll ping it in an e-mail to you just now. (I didn't really think you needed an explanation about primary sources by the way - thought I'd better put a note about that just in case anyone is watching this page and wants to start accusing me of OR!) By the way, I just found a bit in it where he mentions 'my niece, Margaret <indecipherable> McPherson' - looks like she had a middle name, but I can't make out what it was! GirthSummit (blether) 15:27, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
You two seem to have this well in hand, so I will just mention WP:PRIMARY, which explicitly permits the use of primary sources, while advising care and giving some "Do not's". Gog the Mild (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
LOL Gog the Mild ... well in hand o.O would be a bit of an exaggeration as the handwriting is some of the worst I have ever encountered. Though I am positive her name was Margaret Gordon MacPherson. Still trying to read through it, but it may well take several days. SusunW (talk) 19:18, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Will observations and Alexander's family[edit]

I'm going to stick this here, so I don't have to recreate it later. George (ca. 1731 Drumfurrich-23 April 1816, Elgin, Scotland) [brother of Rev. Alexander Grant of Glenrinnes died 1 August 1806 and the brothers' mother died in 1777] and Janet Donaldson (ca. 1756-1834),[4] had these children (which one of these men might have been Alexander is unclear; however, it is logical to assume that all of the males who were not Alexander were deceased by the time of his will, as he only mentions sisters so far in my reading.):

Slow going on reading the will, but here's what I have gleaned so far:
  • "I own my remains to be laid to rest in the family? vault in the church yard of the parish of Mortlach Banffshire where the remains of my beloved father, mother and uncle The Reverend Alexander Grant are deposited". We also know this from Shaw, but I am curious if the Mortlach parish has records which would lead to figuring out which of George and Janet's children Alexander was. Checking Find-a-Grave[7] and BillionGraves[8] nothing appears to be on line for the early period we need, but people walking and filming the cemetery might not have access to a mausoleum or vault. I wonder if it would be worth our time to e-mail and ask if there are records of a vault containing Alexander, his father George and mother Janet, and uncle Rev. Alexander and anyone else who might be in it? (I also note he does not call his father reverend, thus that seems unlikely ...)
  • He was in business in Jamaica with Alexander Donaldson (related to his mother?) and Alexander Thomson. They provided victuals to the "king" for provisioning ships, transports, and prisoners of war on the Jamaica Station during the war. (What war???)
Possibly the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, 1792-1815. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Thomson owed Grant money when he died and a whole bunch of text talks about that. (Like a whole bunch, without any punctuation, ugh).
  • Grant sued (Grant v. Grant, Thomson v. Grant) to recover his money from Donaldson from the sale of the estates and produce of Brampton Bryan, Bryan Castle, Low Layton, Orange D(V)ale and a run? of land ? Fairfield in Saint Georges parish. (Brampton Bryan had 282 slaves on the date of the claim[9] and mostly produced sugar, rum and pimento;[10] Bryan Castle had 237 slaves at date of claim[11] and mostly produced sugar, rum, pimento;[12] Lowlayton 334 slaves[13] sugar, rum;[14] Orange Vale 160 slaves[15] sugar, rum, coffee, cattle.[16] Unable to find records of an estate called Fairfield but there are several "unknown" estates in the database. (At this point, he had around 1,013 slaves). Going back to Grant's record,[17] it shows he had claims for Orange River (Could this be Fairfield? On second thought probably not as it was in St Mary, not St George parish) which had 211 slaves[18] and produced sugar and rum[19]; and by virtue of Grant v. Edwards another unnamed parcel in St Mary which had 1 slave[20]. (total slaves at this point 1,225)
  • He also had interest in the estates of Nonsuch and Unity by virtue of a mortgage due to Donaldson. This estate had 273 slaves[21] and both primarily produced sugar and rum.[22][23] (1498 total slaves at this point).
More later SusunW (talk) 16:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Just remember that you only need information insofar as it is relevant to Margaret's article. Although I think that your next article may be suggesting itself. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit queries[edit]

  • "loss of his slaves as business assets of over £24,000" Do you want to give that sum in today's terms?
 Done Yes, this is probably worth doing - I've added that now. GirthSummit (blether) 07:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Do we know what the relationship was between Alexander Grant and Marianne McKenzie?
I'm not sure that we do - this whole area of the Grant family's Jamaican history is fairly confusing, we probably need to do a bit more work on this to flesh out the details about what they owned there, and exactly who was was who.GirthSummit (blether) 07:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

You will wish to check my relatively bold copy edits. Revert any you don't like. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:07, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any that I don't like :) GirthSummit (blether) 07:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)