Talk:Leo Frank
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Short Description Neutrality[edit]
The “Short Description” on this article currently reads: “American Jewish man (1884–1915) wrongfully convicted and lynched”
Leo Frank's conviction has never been legally overturned. A “pardon” was issued in 1986, but it is simply an apology by the state for failing to adequately protect Frank from abduction and lynching. It explicitly states that it does not address the question of Leo Frank's guilt or innocence:
“In 1983, the State Board of Pardons and Paroles considered a request for a pardon implying innocence, but did not find ‘conclusive evidence proving beyond any doubt that frank was innocent.‘ Such a standard of proof, especially for a 70-year-old case, is almost impossible to satisfy.
Without attempting to address the question of guilt or innocence, and in recognition of the State's failure to protect the person of Leo M. Frank and thereby preserve his opportunity for continued legal appeal of his conviction, and in recognition of the State's failure to bring his killers to justice, and as an effort to heal old wounds, the State Board of Pardons and Paroles, in compliance with its Constitutional and statutory authority, hereby grants to Leo M. Frank a Pardon”
While I understand that many historians believe Frank was incorrectly convicted, many other people are equally convinced of his guilt, including the descendants of Mary Phagan. Furthermore, no appeals court –including the US Supreme Court– has ever found any issue with the jury's decision nor the conduct of the trial.
It is simply not objective to definitively state that he was “wrongfully” convicted. It remains a matter of opinion. I suggest revising the description to say either: “…convicted of murder and wrongfully lynched” or “…controversially convicted and lynched” or “…and lynching victim” Livius Plinius (talk) 19:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think the last short description discussion was here. I continue to feel that the current short description is accurate and neutral, and that only the length restrictions (already slightly transgressed) hold us back from fully capturing the major bits of info. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- How it is “neutral” to say that he was “wrongfully convicted” when no court has ever overturned the verdict? It is a matter of opinion. Li
vius Plinius (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I would hate to just trade assertions back and forth with you, so I'm happy to wait and hear how others feel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The body of the article makes point with citations that there is "near unanimity" that this was a miscarriage of justice. the short description reflects this and is WP:DUE. Actually the unanimity is that of serious scholarship. It's only "controversial" among a small collection of far right and anti-semitic websites that have cropped up in the last decade or so. They don't count. They have fed forum-like posts of fellow travellers across the internet proclaiming the non-existent "controversy". Some wash up here. They don't count either. DeCausa (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The legal system is ultimately the objective arbiter of the validity of the verdict in this case. Despite a century of legal wrangling, Leo Frank's conviction still stands. As recently as 2019, Fulton county convened a special review board to reconsider Leo Frank's conviction. Four years later, the conviction has yet to be overturned. Leo Frank has simply never been formally exonerated, nor has any fault with his trial ever been identified in a court of law.
- The scholarship in this case is only among a very small group of defenders and detractors. This matter simply is not widely studied nor discussed among the general public. The involved parties on either side are, for the most part, partisans with deep emotional investments. Nevertheless, there are numerous researchers for both sides. You are simply giving no weight to the many researchers who you feel are incorrect, regardless of how carefully they make their arguments. Livius Plinius (talk) 20:47, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are no "both sides" when websites like Leofrank.org are (rightly) excluded. That's the point. DeCausa (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The other “side” here is the legal system. A point with which you are simply not contending. Livius Plinius (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The lynching prematurely ended the legal process. Of course, there's no appeal. The defective proceedings are frozen in 1915. That's why the pardon was given. DeCausa (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Leo Frank appealed his conviction all the way to the Supreme Court during his life.
- Since his death, there have been two applications for pardons, and in 2019 Fulton County created the “Conviction Integrity Unit” to review the case, which doesn't appear to have gone anywhere. His conviction could still be nullified through a variety of means. Livius Plinius (talk) 21:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Actually you don't seem to be connecting with the fact that the consensus of historians and other scholars conversant with the subject is that Frank was wrongfully convicted - there is absolutely no doubt that this is the case. Wikipedia reflects what the experts say, so that's what the short description should say.Again, I point you to WP:BLUDGEON, and this time I warn you specifically that if you don' with stop bludgeoning this talk page with your idee fixe, I will take the matter up on the Administrators' Noticeboard and ask for a formal warning to be issued to you, to be followed by being blocked from editing if you do not stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that there is any such consensus. When did it come about? How? How can anyone be so certain about events so long ago? I can understand concluding that Frank was probably innocent, but did some historian somewhere prove that he was innocent? Who did that? Who was convinced? Unless you can point me to an answer to these questions, there is no consensus. Roger (talk) 23:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Facepalm. I took the time to read this discussion, and have yet to see anyone who suggests Leo Frank was anything other than innocent provide a single reliable source to suggest as much. Most likely because there are none. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- This Washington Post article provides a useful summary of the two "sides" of the "debate": "overwhelming evidence"/"historical consensus" v. Neo-Nazi and white supremacist websites. DeCausa (talk) 06:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, I learned some things from that Wash. Post article. It explains that interest in the case is maintained by opposing political factions who have historical and ideological reasons for defending their positions. I think the Wikipedia article should explain this better. The Wash. Post is a left-wing newspaper, so it has its own ideological spin on the story. It says that web sites with "thousands of authentic documents ... dispute the historical consensus". Okay, I would not object to the Wikipedia article saying that. It also says "Overwhelming evidence implicates Jim Conley ... Conley was convicted as an accessory after the fact." Again, no objection from me. But the Wash. Post article does not say that Frank was wrongfully convicted, and I do not see the justification for such a statement. Roger (talk) 16:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think "wrongfully convicted" is a fine summation of the current consensus among reliable sources, but do you have a suggestion of what you would like to see replace it? Dumuzid (talk) 17:10, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'd also note that, while acknowledging that Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, the working Wikipedia definition of "wrongful conviction", as articulated on the list of wrongful convictions in the United States,
includes some historic cases of people who have not been formally exonerated (by a formal process such as has existed in the United States since the mid 20th century) but who historians believe are factually innocent.
Not surprisingly or coincidentally, Leo Frank is included on that list. There's no reason not to use "wrongfully convicted" in this case. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)- Thanks for that list. I see Frank can qualify based on "research by historians has revealed original conditions of bias or extrajudicial actions that related to their convictions and/or executions." I am not sure he suffered from original bias, as I would expect the jury to have been more biased against Conley than Frank. There was certainly a notable "extrajudicial action", a lynching. The description there seems factual and NPOV to me, except for one thing: It says "Yes" under the column "Legally exonerated". I will fix that, unless someone objects. To answer the question of what I would suggest: something more like the description there. Roger (talk) 18:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- With all due respect, what you or I think or expect are not really bases for changing an article. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I guess you are agreeing with me. I am arguing in favor of sticking to objective information. Roger (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Does
I would expect the jury to have been more biased against Conley than Frank
fall into the category of "objective information"? Dumuzid (talk) 01:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)- No, and I am not suggesting that be put into the article. I am arguing to remove "wrongfully convicted", as that is just some editor's personal opinion. Roger (talk) 02:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- It would appear to me to be the majority opinion of historians and related experts on the case. Dumuzid (talk) 02:49, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Convicting someone of a crime they did not commit is definitionally a wrongful conviction. We don't need a court to say that officially when the consensus of reliable sources is otherwise clear, as it is overwhelmingly so here. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Roger has already agreed to that above when he wrote:
Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)I see the CNN article says: "The consensus of historians is that the Frank case was a miscarriage of justice." Okay, I would not object to the article saying that. Roger (talk) 03:04, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
- Roger has already agreed to that above when he wrote:
- No, and I am not suggesting that be put into the article. I am arguing to remove "wrongfully convicted", as that is just some editor's personal opinion. Roger (talk) 02:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Does
- I guess you are agreeing with me. I am arguing in favor of sticking to objective information. Roger (talk) 01:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- With all due respect, what you or I think or expect are not really bases for changing an article. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for that list. I see Frank can qualify based on "research by historians has revealed original conditions of bias or extrajudicial actions that related to their convictions and/or executions." I am not sure he suffered from original bias, as I would expect the jury to have been more biased against Conley than Frank. There was certainly a notable "extrajudicial action", a lynching. The description there seems factual and NPOV to me, except for one thing: It says "Yes" under the column "Legally exonerated". I will fix that, unless someone objects. To answer the question of what I would suggest: something more like the description there. Roger (talk) 18:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, I learned some things from that Wash. Post article. It explains that interest in the case is maintained by opposing political factions who have historical and ideological reasons for defending their positions. I think the Wikipedia article should explain this better. The Wash. Post is a left-wing newspaper, so it has its own ideological spin on the story. It says that web sites with "thousands of authentic documents ... dispute the historical consensus". Okay, I would not object to the Wikipedia article saying that. It also says "Overwhelming evidence implicates Jim Conley ... Conley was convicted as an accessory after the fact." Again, no objection from me. But the Wash. Post article does not say that Frank was wrongfully convicted, and I do not see the justification for such a statement. Roger (talk) 16:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- This Washington Post article provides a useful summary of the two "sides" of the "debate": "overwhelming evidence"/"historical consensus" v. Neo-Nazi and white supremacist websites. DeCausa (talk) 06:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Facepalm. I took the time to read this discussion, and have yet to see anyone who suggests Leo Frank was anything other than innocent provide a single reliable source to suggest as much. Most likely because there are none. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that there is any such consensus. When did it come about? How? How can anyone be so certain about events so long ago? I can understand concluding that Frank was probably innocent, but did some historian somewhere prove that he was innocent? Who did that? Who was convinced? Unless you can point me to an answer to these questions, there is no consensus. Roger (talk) 23:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Actually you don't seem to be connecting with the fact that the consensus of historians and other scholars conversant with the subject is that Frank was wrongfully convicted - there is absolutely no doubt that this is the case. Wikipedia reflects what the experts say, so that's what the short description should say.Again, I point you to WP:BLUDGEON, and this time I warn you specifically that if you don' with stop bludgeoning this talk page with your idee fixe, I will take the matter up on the Administrators' Noticeboard and ask for a formal warning to be issued to you, to be followed by being blocked from editing if you do not stop. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The lynching prematurely ended the legal process. Of course, there's no appeal. The defective proceedings are frozen in 1915. That's why the pardon was given. DeCausa (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- The other “side” here is the legal system. A point with which you are simply not contending. Livius Plinius (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are no "both sides" when websites like Leofrank.org are (rightly) excluded. That's the point. DeCausa (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Plinius is right. In addition to his conviction never being overturned, the evidence against him is overwhelming. It's not "antisemitism" every time a jewish person gets accused of doing something wrong. 74.109.13.35 (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- The body of the article makes point with citations that there is "near unanimity" that this was a miscarriage of justice. the short description reflects this and is WP:DUE. Actually the unanimity is that of serious scholarship. It's only "controversial" among a small collection of far right and anti-semitic websites that have cropped up in the last decade or so. They don't count. They have fed forum-like posts of fellow travellers across the internet proclaiming the non-existent "controversy". Some wash up here. They don't count either. DeCausa (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- I would hate to just trade assertions back and forth with you, so I'm happy to wait and hear how others feel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- How it is “neutral” to say that he was “wrongfully convicted” when no court has ever overturned the verdict? It is a matter of opinion. Li
vius Plinius (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I edited the short description to something more neutral, but someone reverted it already. The short description should summarize the article. The article does not say he was wrongfully convicted, and neither does any source cited here. It is just an editor opinion, and does not belong. Roger (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- This is utter nonsense. Your edit was nothing short of lying by way of omitting context. I am seriously starting to doubt your good faith here. Dumuzid (talk) 17:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- My stretched-out AGF says maybe they don't equate consensus of experts with fact, but we absolutely do and should continue doing so. On the other hand, I think Roger's change from "preserve his opportunity to appeal" to "preserve his opportunity for additional appeals" was an improvement. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- My change was from "wrongfully convicted and lynched" to "convicted of murder, lynched, and pardoned". That is brief, factual, and implies that he did not deserve what happened. If there is really a consensus that he was "wrongfully convicted", then don't argue with me here. Put it in the main article, and back it up with sources. There is certainly a lot of evidence that Frank did not commit the murder. I am not contesting that. It appears to me that there is no consensus about what happened, and no consensus that Frank was wrongfully convicted. Roger (talk) 18:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- BMK quotes you yourself above, saying
I see the CNN article says: "The consensus of historians is that the Frank case was a miscarriage of justice."
I have no idea how you're claiming that there's no consensus, either amongst us editors here on this talk page, or in the wider world at large. Nor do I understand why you keep saying it's not in the Wikipedia article: the Wikipedia article says very bluntly:Today, the consensus of researchers is that Frank was wrongly convicted
. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)- Because there is no consensus that Frank was wrongfully convicted, and there is no source that says there is. The article should have a neutral short description that summarizes the article. The article does not even say that he was wrongfully convicted. Roger (talk) 00:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article says so multiple times. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- As you acknowledged, the CNN article certainly backs up the language, as do other sources. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- No, please do not put words in my mouth. The CNN article says something different. So does the Wikipedia article. Nowhere does either say that Frank was wrongfully convicted. If you say it does, please show the exact quote. Roger (talk) 02:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- ...What do you think the term "wrongful conviction" means? It doesn't just mean "convictions that were later overturned or vacated", it means "convictions of people who were innocent". Here's one such definition; here's another. You'll note that, while the definitions you seem to be operating under are there, the first definition in both cases is
A conviction of a person for a crime that he or she did not commit
/The person convicted is factually innocent of the charges.
It is a synonym of "miscarriage of justice" (ref:the term “miscarriage of justice” means that the defendant is actually innocent
), which you've already acknowledged. This is why we don't need the courts to overturn a conviction to call it wrongful; if the consensus of historians is that Leo Frank was innocent, then that is enough for us to call it a wrongful conviction. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC) - Are you perhaps drawing a distinction between "wrongly convicted" and "consensus of researchers is that Frank was wrongly convicted"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- It seems to me our interlocutor is objecting that the exact terminology "wrongfully convicted" is not present. While I don't agree that we can't summarize similar statements ("miscarriage of justice" etc.), those words are not hard to find. Observer says "The nearly unanimous consensus of contemporary researchers is that Frank was wrongfully convicted." The New Yorker describes Frank as "a Jewish pencil-factory manager in Georgia who in 1913 was wrongfully convicted of, and later lynched for, raping and murdering a white girl." The Jerusalem Post described him as " . . . an American Jew wrongfully convicted of murder in Georgia in 1915." The Tennessean, in reprinting its major reporting regarding the statements of Alonzo Mann, wrote about "Leo Frank, who was wrongfully convicted of killing Mary Phagan in 1913 in Atlanta." The New York Daily News, in describing the tsuris surrounding the Broadway show "Parade," described it as "a musical about an American Jew who was wrongfully convicted of murder and lynched a century ago." NBC New York described the same show as "a musical about the true story of Leo Frank -- a Jewish man lynched in 1915 after he was wrongfully convicted for the rape and murder of a 13-year-old girl." USA Today says the show is about "Leo Frank, the Jewish superintendent of a pencil factory in Atlanta, who in 1913 was falsely accused and wrongfully convicted of the murder of 13-year-old Mary Phagan." Similarly, Salon says the show "follows the true story of Leo Frank, a Jewish factory manager who was convicted of raping and murdering a 13-year-old employee named Mary Phagan in 1913. Today, the consensus is that he was wrongly convicted, but at the time, amid rising antisemitic tensions across Georgia, Frank was kidnapped from prison in 1915 and lynched in Phagan's hometown" (emphasis added). Again regarding the show, Vice says Frank was "a Jewish man lynched in 1915 after he was wrongfully convicted of raping and murdering a 13-year-old girl in Georgia." Even the American Film Institute gets in on the action, describing a 1915 film as having a story "based in large part on actual events surrounding the much publicized case of Leo M. Frank, wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to death in Georgia . . ." Suffice it to say, I believe the "wrongfully convicted" language is adequately supported. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 03:24, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- This is interesting, but why don't you put the language in the main article, instead of arguing it here? The Tennessean does indeed say Frank was wrongfully convicted, based on a 1982 statement by a witness who changed his story. Okay, that episode is already in the main article, but it did not convince everyone. There are also a bunch a comments about a fictionalized play. I would not take any of that literally. Roger (talk) 03:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I don't really care how you take it. When you have a consensus to change the article in line with your preferences, feel free to do so. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 04:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Contrary to your arguments, which I believe have been made in bad faith, there are plenty of honest folks out there who have credentials wihch qualify them to make judgement calls regarding criminal cases… It has been my experience that those who have taken an honest-to-goodness review of the trial of Leo Frank, as in those who are not of a certain minority (be it ethnic or holding prejudicial beliefs), can comfortably rest on the knowledge that the jury got it right the first time — Frank was guilty. Moreover, these same people can acknowledge that he was wrongfully lynched.
- For you to cite articles that have long been seen as more than dubious and other articles which center around a make-believe play which itself can rightfully be seen as propaganda is just one more very sad instance that wikipedia is beyond compromised at this point. Eventually, others with the wherewithal will come here and attempt to set the record straight. No doubt you will be quick to reply with antisemitic charges and linking the same one-sided & outright biased sources, calling them credible and whatnot. What does it say, I wonder, that the living relatives of Mary Phagan all believe in Frank's guilt? Or that his widowed wife refused to be buried next to her husband? Or that every appeal including those made even in this century has found no credible evidence or compelling reason to change the initial decision reached? 2601:346:880:5940:ED65:A9C4:6D50:A0A2 (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- With all due respect, I don't really care how you take it. When you have a consensus to change the article in line with your preferences, feel free to do so. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 04:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- This is interesting, but why don't you put the language in the main article, instead of arguing it here? The Tennessean does indeed say Frank was wrongfully convicted, based on a 1982 statement by a witness who changed his story. Okay, that episode is already in the main article, but it did not convince everyone. There are also a bunch a comments about a fictionalized play. I would not take any of that literally. Roger (talk) 03:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- It seems to me our interlocutor is objecting that the exact terminology "wrongfully convicted" is not present. While I don't agree that we can't summarize similar statements ("miscarriage of justice" etc.), those words are not hard to find. Observer says "The nearly unanimous consensus of contemporary researchers is that Frank was wrongfully convicted." The New Yorker describes Frank as "a Jewish pencil-factory manager in Georgia who in 1913 was wrongfully convicted of, and later lynched for, raping and murdering a white girl." The Jerusalem Post described him as " . . . an American Jew wrongfully convicted of murder in Georgia in 1915." The Tennessean, in reprinting its major reporting regarding the statements of Alonzo Mann, wrote about "Leo Frank, who was wrongfully convicted of killing Mary Phagan in 1913 in Atlanta." The New York Daily News, in describing the tsuris surrounding the Broadway show "Parade," described it as "a musical about an American Jew who was wrongfully convicted of murder and lynched a century ago." NBC New York described the same show as "a musical about the true story of Leo Frank -- a Jewish man lynched in 1915 after he was wrongfully convicted for the rape and murder of a 13-year-old girl." USA Today says the show is about "Leo Frank, the Jewish superintendent of a pencil factory in Atlanta, who in 1913 was falsely accused and wrongfully convicted of the murder of 13-year-old Mary Phagan." Similarly, Salon says the show "follows the true story of Leo Frank, a Jewish factory manager who was convicted of raping and murdering a 13-year-old employee named Mary Phagan in 1913. Today, the consensus is that he was wrongly convicted, but at the time, amid rising antisemitic tensions across Georgia, Frank was kidnapped from prison in 1915 and lynched in Phagan's hometown" (emphasis added). Again regarding the show, Vice says Frank was "a Jewish man lynched in 1915 after he was wrongfully convicted of raping and murdering a 13-year-old girl in Georgia." Even the American Film Institute gets in on the action, describing a 1915 film as having a story "based in large part on actual events surrounding the much publicized case of Leo M. Frank, wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to death in Georgia . . ." Suffice it to say, I believe the "wrongfully convicted" language is adequately supported. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 03:24, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- ...What do you think the term "wrongful conviction" means? It doesn't just mean "convictions that were later overturned or vacated", it means "convictions of people who were innocent". Here's one such definition; here's another. You'll note that, while the definitions you seem to be operating under are there, the first definition in both cases is
- No, please do not put words in my mouth. The CNN article says something different. So does the Wikipedia article. Nowhere does either say that Frank was wrongfully convicted. If you say it does, please show the exact quote. Roger (talk) 02:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- As you acknowledged, the CNN article certainly backs up the language, as do other sources. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 01:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article says so multiple times. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:59, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Because there is no consensus that Frank was wrongfully convicted, and there is no source that says there is. The article should have a neutral short description that summarizes the article. The article does not even say that he was wrongfully convicted. Roger (talk) 00:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- BMK quotes you yourself above, saying
- Please delete this unedited reply, thank you SpicyHabaneros (talk) 03:44, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- You potray very one-sided and clearly biased sources and claim it forms a "consensus" which is on its face blatant misdirection on your part. It is not on us to show that he is innocent, as there was an entire trial and many legal appeals over the last 100+ years which established beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty. Alas, Wikipedia nas nevert he arbiter of truth. It was never truthw wrthy. That is in part due to bogus folks like yourself who habrbr ulterior motives and despite what anybody above have linked or no matter how many solid indisputable facts laid out for all to see.…the article unbelieavaby claims that there is a consensus that he is not only not guilty, but that Jim Conely is the murderer. Tell me, what evidence occurs in this article that would lead the everyday reader to concur that yes , t would appear that Jim Conely was the murderer and that Frank was wrongly convicted? There is none, of course.
- The Onus is on you and the gang who very maliciously claim there is a consensus among historians (Dinnerstein is not a consensus rather a biased source per her own admission being of the same ethnicity, check her prologue admits as much). Such a shame, I hope the average person sees through this, and anybody who does any research certainly will. SpicyHabaneros (talk) 03:44, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- However, please note that changes made without a clear consensus behind them will be immediately deleted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:24, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
I am an uninvolved administrator who has been watching this article since it was mentioned on a noticeboard some months ago. There should be no need to spend this much energy on the wording of a Wikipedia:Short description. There appears to be a consensus (WP:CONSENSUS) that the current wording is satisfactory. Accordingly, there is no need for people to respond further unless the next steps in dispute resolution are taken (that probably means starting an WP:RFC which might be a first for a short description). My recommendation would be for the minority to have their last say and the majority to not respond unless something new has been raised. Johnuniq (talk) 05:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Impact on the Ku Klux Klan Revival[edit]
"His case spurred the creation of the Anti-Defamation League and the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan." Shouldn't there be an elaboration on this in the "After the Trial" section? This line name-drops the KKK but doesn't appear to explain why or how it led to the resurgeance of the KKK. If it's important enough to include in the opening of the article, surely it should be alluded to in places other than the opening the article alone? Horizons 1 (talk) 16:35, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I have added a paragraph in the aforementioned section. Horizons 1 (talk) 16:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- This remains unresolved. Horizons 1 (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
Period after sentence[edit]
@DeCausa "There are not 2 sentences there" I never said there were.
"One sentence divided by a semi colon." So you say it yourself that this is a sentence. And per "MOS:CAPFRAG", captions that contain at least one sentence must end with a period.
Your reference to "BRD" is inappropriate in this context as well, as this is an objective yes/no question where nothing needs to be argued out.
BRD states: "When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary [...]" I gave my reason for why I think it's a sentence. You agreed that it's a sentence. Now you have to explain why in this case, the sentence shouldn't end with a period, contrary to the MOS:CAPFRAG guideline. Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- We should rewrite the caption so its either obviously a fragment or a grammatically correct sentence. How about "Leo Frank during the trial with Lucille Frank to his right"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- Even if the text before the semicolon is merely a sentence fragment, it doesn't matter, as the text after it is a gramatically correct sentence; see MOS:FRAG.
- I already explained it in my edit summary: "A sentence is defined as a set of words that is complete in itself, containing a subject ("Lucille Frank [...]") and a predicate ("[...] is to his right")." Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:15, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- Maxeto0910, "Nothing needs to be argued out" WTF? A sentence can't start with a semi-colon. That's basic grammar. Let's go with Firefangledfeathers suggestion which works fine. DeCausa (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- "A sentence can't start with a semi-colon."
- I'm not a native English speaker, but the wiki article states that it may be used "Between closely related independent clauses [...]". So it seems like a sentence can indeed start with a semicolon.
- "Let's go with Firefangledfeathers suggestion which works fine."
- I have nothing against it. Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- If you're not a native speaker you may want to consider these two rules in English: (1) a sentence always begins with a capital letter; (2) any word, other than a proper noun, following a semi-colon always begins with a non-capitalised letter. Anyway, I think Firefangledfeathers has provided a solution! DeCausa (talk) 20:40, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- Maxeto0910, "Nothing needs to be argued out" WTF? A sentence can't start with a semi-colon. That's basic grammar. Let's go with Firefangledfeathers suggestion which works fine. DeCausa (talk) 20:19, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
Consensus[edit]
Sourceless and lengthy digression - blogs, especially blogs that call Google CCP-Google, are not RS, nor are websites that headline "Bizarre Oddities: Oh My, Obama’s Brother Says Barack Sold His Soul to Satan To Join the Illuminati: |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
There is a strong cultural consensus now and since '68, that no convicted murderer, esp. if s/he is a member of a minority can ever possibly be guilty (Angela Davis, George Jackson, Huey Newton, Dylan's "Hurricane" from the 60's/70's; Joe Hill, Sacco & Vanzetti, from the I.W.W. period). Passed on Comintern propaganda, the 100% consensus of historians was, that SA was guilty of the Reichstagsbrand. A canard very popular again today. --Ralfdetlef (talk) 14:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
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Draft Request for comment regarding the statement that Leo Frank was wrongfully convicted & that there is a consensus among researchers that he was innocent[edit]
Should Leo Frank's description including the contentious claim that he was wrongfully convicted? Is there an actual consensus that Mr. Frank was innocent of the charges he was found guilty of? SpicyHabaneros (talk) 05:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- SpicyHabaneros (talk · contribs): You have seven edits, six of them to this talk page. I have no knowledge of the topic but an RfC is for significant issues that need resolution from a wide group of editors. Before attempting an RfC, please present a proposal (this text should be changed to that) with some reliable sources to justify the change. According to the close of the previous section, some sources mentioned on this page are clearly not reliable. I have therefore changed this to a draft to discuss whether an RfC is needed. There is no need unless a plausible proposal is presented. Johnuniq (talk) 05:33, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- An RFC? Absolutely not. This is a waste of time and other editors' good faith. If SpicyHabaneros persists, I will head to ANI to request a topic ban. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 12:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Bbb23 has just indeffed them. I suppose extended confirmed protection for this talk page would be considered a step too far? Semi? You have to go a long long way back before you find a post that would have been excluded by either that but that wasn't WP:DISRUPTIVE. DeCausa (talk) 13:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
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