Talk:MassResistance

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Archives of past discussion[edit]

Archive 1

Propagation of known falsehoods—claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities—and repeated, groundless name-calling[edit]

There's still no source associating that reason with MassResistance. The SPLC source says that that's generally the reason for declaring a group an anti-gay hate group. The San Francisco Examiner gives no reason. Added {{failed verification}} tags.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:44, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly.

Generally, the SPLC’s listings of these groups is based on their propagation of known falsehoods—claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities—and repeated, groundless name-calling. Viewing homosexuality as unbiblical does not qualify organizations for listing as hate groups.

The attributes apply generally (as a rule, usually, typically) to all of the groups. A simple review of the sourced article corroborates that MassRessitance
  1. propagates of known falsehoods
  2. [makes] claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities
  3. [engages in] repeated, groundless name-calling
A common sense interpretation is required. Failing that, we can substitute this text:

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has designated MassResistance as an anti-gay hate group. "Generally, the SPLC’s listings of these groups is based on their propagation of known falsehoods—claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities—and repeated, groundless name-calling. Viewing homosexuality as unbiblical does not qualify organizations for listing as hate groups."

Please feel free to substitute in this text, without the multiple 'reason not there' tags. – MrX 16:18, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
That would clearly be undue weight, and of questionable relevance. Unlike lgr, I think a reason should be there if sourced and if it would fit in one sentence. It's your choice whether to include the unsourced reason (with appropriate tags) or just the fact of the listing, as I would prefer in the absence of an actual source.
Alternatively, we could double the length of the lead by including information from other sections of the article in the lead.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:28, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
(added) "Viewing homosexuality as unbiblical does not qualify organizations for listing as hate groups" should clearly not be in the lead. It's about SPLC, with no likely reference to MassResistance.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I think the weight is more than appropriate. I don't really care if we include the last sentence, but some form of the first is required in my opinion. The alternative I proposed in the green box more than addresses any sourcing issues. I really hope that there is not an intention to hold the lede hostage with the three tags placed there. I'm really striving for a compromise here, and I seem to be getting intransigence in return. – MrX 18:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I think the relevance of the proposed "explanation" is in question, as well as weight. If SPLC declares MassResistance to be an anti-gay hate group, and (even in the same source) the reason for declaring a group to be an "anti-gay hate group" is generally the specified criteria, that does not even imply that SPLC declares that MassResistance meets the criteria. To even make that implication is original research, not just synthesis. And if we're not making the implication, there's no reason for including the "reason".—Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
It's a simple matter of good writing to attribute the statements made with due weight. There are proficient editors available to help with this if needed. Insomesia (talk) 05:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Arthur, I think you may want to review WP:SYNTH and especially WP:SYNTHNOT. Especially "SYNTH is not mere juxtaposition.
All we have to do is use the text in the green box and your synth argument vanishes. Your assertions of 'clearly undue' and 'questionable relevance' are simply not supported by cogent arguments. Also, to claim that it is unsourced, and then completely ignore the SPLC as a source, reveals a bias against the community's already-well-established consensus.
Once again,
  1. The SPLC publishes a list a hate groups
  2. At the top of the list are the general reasons for inclusion in the list
  3. Wikipedia editors (those who have written the article and done the research) see that clearly all of the general reasons are validated by other sources and common sense interpretation fo the actual published statement and article by the MassResistance.
  4. Shazam! We have the text in the green box, or the less weighty text "The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated MassResistance as an anti-gay hate group for their "propagation of known falsehoods—claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities—and repeated, groundless name-calling." "MrX 13:25, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
The only reason for including "Generally, the SPLC’s listings of these groups...." is for the reader to determine that the reason applies to this group, when it would be WP:SYNTH for us to make the statement. Juxtapostion of statements where the reader is invited to make a conclusion is still WP:SYNTH, even if we don't say it in Wikipedia's voice.
If a reason is to be included in the lead, as indicated by consensus, we must use a reason attributed by SPLC for this particular group. Summarizing the detailed reasons given in the SPLC reference would be acceptable; using SPLC's general reason is not.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:12, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
To quote another section from WP:SYNTHNOT: "SYNTH is when two or more reliably-sourced statements are combined to produce a new thesis that isn't verifiable from the sources." That's exactly what we would be doing if we were to include the proposed subsection.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:17, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────This would be a misapplication of WP:SYNTH, as we're not talking about "two or more reliably-sourced statements". It's a single article which includes a broad explanation at the top and a more specific one for each hate group. There is no synthesis is repeating the broad explanation alongside the specific one; that's how our source did it. Rather, you would first have to separate the two in order to claim they're being put together. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 19:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. As usual.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
Your disagreement, without explanation, is deeply unconvincing. Your incivility doesn't help. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 07:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
<redacted what SS would consider a personal attack, even though it only describes his edits, not his intent or knowledge.> Your "reason" has few phrases which are correct, so there's nothing to explain. However, the correct approach would be to use what the article actually says about MR, rather than the "general" reason at the top of the article, which we cannot necessarily use against MR.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
If you write something that you reasonably expect to be taken as a personal attack, don't redact it with a message, just omit it. It was never posted, so there's no reason to comment on it. Leaving a "<here's where I would have said you have a small penis so you should be glad I'm redacting myself>" message amounts to a personal attack on its own; it's transparently disingenuous.
The correct approach is to stick close to our sources. Our source for the hate group listing offers a general explanation that we are free to use, so long as we make it clear that it's general. No synthesis involved; we just quote. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 08:11, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Arthur, I think it would be best for us to acknowledge that this comes down to an interpretation of what constitutes unacceptable synthesis, and we have failed to convince each other of our respective interpretations. Ultimately, this will be decided by (local) consensus. I hope that you would agree that there is no strict policy that could possibly be applied here. – MrX 15:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I disagree. Attributing the statement, without saying "generally", would be a WP:BLP violstion. With it, it's fairly clear it's synthesis; the "generally" statement has no relevance to the article unless it's intended to imply that it refers to SPLC's view of MR, and saying that would be synthesis. If you're willing to keep an "irrelevant" tag on the statement permanently, I have no objection to including it. Otherwise, I still think it's pretty clear synthesis. Perhaps it should be brought to the OR board for more general discussion.
Still better would be to use or summarize the specific (sourced to the same SPLC document) reasons given in the body, then to use the inapplicable "general" term. The "generally" seems marginally allowable in the body, but not in the lead.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:09, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, so you disagree that we disagree? :P
I agree that we should take it to a noticeboard, and the OR board seems fine to me. As far as I can tell, there are no published specific explanations that would not require some level of interpretation, and certainly none that would meet your's and StAnselm's rather rigorous criteria for inclusion. So let's get more eyes on it and try to get it resolved once and for all. Note that this "general" criteria question applies to 18 hate groups, so let's not leave that out of the equation. – MrX 01:25, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
I think it should go back to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard as they are used to this nonsense and would be fine helping arbitrate some language. Insomesia (talk) 07:13, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
That doesn't seem reasonable. The dispute is not whether the source is reliable, but whether we can combine two sections of the source to imply a conclusion. It seems closer to the OR/SYNTH board. And the "general" question does not necessarily apply to all 18 of the groups for which this reference might be used, especially those for which there is consensus the reason should not be in the lead.—Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:56, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
The Reliable Sources Noticeboard is well equipped to address those concerns, as I think you are well aware. Additionally they are familiar with the ongoing SPLC anti-gay hate groups arguments and objectors. Insomesia (talk) 19:48, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Comment to the above which I missed. I didn't say or imply that my redacted statement would reasonably be considered a personal attack, just that it would be considered a personal attack. I'm sure you can see the difference. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:44, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Abortion[edit]

If anyone wants to have a discussion about how this organizations position on abortion should be used on the article, this is the place to do it. We must take particular care not to mischaracterize their position as stated in a self published source.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer
 
17:41, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Please see the edit I just made. I quoted more of the source for accuracy. Ideally, we would find a secondary source from which to draw. - MrX 17:57, 15 December 2012 (UTC)