Talk:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia

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Antoni Macierewicz interview[edit]

Antoni Macierewicz, Poland's Defense Minister in „Minęła 20” program stated that massacre was orchestrated by Russians and NKVD and Ukrainians are not to blame. "According to Macierewicz restoration of the Ukrainian state in the interest of Polish. He added that the real enemy were the Russians, who "used" Ukrainian nationalists to organize genocide. This is reminiscent of the Ukrainian narrative, according to which the NKVD is responsible for Volyn."

http://www.kresy.pl/wydarzenia,bezpieczenstwo-i-obrona?zobacz/macierewicz-o-rzezi-wolynskiej-zrodlem-rzezi-wolynskiej-jest-rosja-video

Requested move 24 August 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 06:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)


Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern GaliciaMurder of Poles and Jews in Volhynia and Galicia. Also discussed → Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia. – Please read my detailed explanation from above. "Eastern Galicia" (as oppose to New Galicia) was an administrative unit of the Monarchy before World War One. – It is not a geographic region per se. The phrase "Volhynia and Galicia" as the epicentre of the massacres is supported by book authors Ivan Katchanovski et alii (above), Alexander Statiev,[1] Stephen Rapawy,[2] Timothy Snyder,[3], Ray Brandon & ‎Wendy Lower,[4] Omer Bartov,[5] and numerous other historians. Poeticbent talk 14:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:07, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

  • Support. Please note, the phrase used by Omer Bartov is "murder of the Jews and Poles of Galicia and Volhynia" (page 65). The phrase used by Alexander Statiev is "extermination of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia" (page 88). Actual descriptions vary. Poeticbent talk 14:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Murder of Jews was a related but not the same phenomenon (why not add murder of followers of Andriy Atanasovych Melnyk, UPA also did this) and this article is large enough as it is. Moreover, "murder", in the English language, has a connotation of involving singular events (unless you want to use "mass murder" although even this would not accurately describe events as widespread as what occurred in Volynia and Eastern Galicia). Killing an individual or a family is murder. A single terrorist act or, at most, related terrorist acts in close proximity to each other, involving many deaths, could be described as mass murder. This event would not be correctly described using that word. I don't have a problem with changing Eastern Galicia to Galicia.Faustian (talk) 15:16, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
    • "Why no add ..." because it's a separate but related topic, about which a separate article could probably be written.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:27, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment per Faustian, the article can also be moved to → Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia with both of our support !votes. Poeticbent talk 05:31, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes.Faustian (talk) 06:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose I agree with Faustian. I would add that this was an operation directed specifically against Poles. Bartov doesn't state that UPA organized massacres/ethnic cleansing/genocide of Jews. He writes (note 70) that UPA recruited widely among former policemen and SS-men who participated in the Holocaust. During the massacres, Jews hiding among Poles were killed sometimes as Jews and sometimes as Poles (Snyder in Brandon&Lower, p. 101.).
I think "Eastern Galicia" is a more precise term. It denotes the territory inhabited by a Ukrainian majority, and roughly corresponds to the area of historic Halychyna (Principality of Halych/Galician Rus) and part of Habsburg Galicia that today belongs to Ukraine (to understand the extend of Austrian Galicia, one should look at this map). Some authors use the terms Eastern Galicia and Galicia interchangeably, for example Bartov and Snyder. Bartov uses "Eastern Galicia" throughout his book, in chapter title and when he talks about the region in the Second Polish Republic p. 18. Snyder in "Reconstruction of Nations": Part Two [The Embattled Ukrainian Borderland] focuses on eastern Galicia and Volhynia" (p. 6), A researcher who wished to learn the names of murdered Polish civilians in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia could begin with... (p. 325). On the other hand, Motyka employs only the term "Galicja Wschodnia" (Eastern Galicia) and it might be misleading to translate his words as "Galicia".Hedviberit (talk) 00:35, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Bartov uses Snyder and Magocsi in his book and speaks overwhelmingly about "Galicia",[6] and "Jewish Galicia" (page 17) not so much "Eastern Galicia", per link provided. Notably, he also acknowledges the fact that "Western Galicia" was a "province" of the Habsburg Empire from 1772 (page 3). It was not a "geographic region" in that sense. The region around Lublin is known as "Lesser Poland", like I already explained. Poeticbent talk 12:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support neutralizing per WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOR. "Massacres" is not the WP:COMMONNAME, it's just emotive language not consistently used in the sources, and we've renamed many similar articles for the same reason. Even if the loaded term is kept in this case, support also the shortening, per WP:CONCISE.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:27, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
There are many historians/researchers who use the term "massacres/massacre" to describe the killings of Poles by the UPA. I would argue that this is the closest to WP:COMMONNAME (the most recognizable). Some examples: David Marples ("Volhynia massacres") p. 214, Uilleam Blacker et al. ed, Andriy Portnov, ("Volhynia massacres of Poles") pp. 8, 240, Daniel Bloxham ed. ("Volhynia, massacres of Poles") pp. 124-125, Lubomyr Hajda ("massacres of Poles in Volhynia") p. 59, Paul R. Bartrop, Steven Leonard Jacobs ("Volhynian Poles, massacres") p. 2042, Alexander Mikaberidze, ("Volhynian Poles, Massacres of 1943") p. 692, Alexander Gogun, ("massacres that were carried out by the UPA in 1943-44") p. 171, Karel C. Berkhoff ("anti-Polish massacres") p. 297, Serhii Plokhy ("Volhynian massacres of 1943-44") p. 296, Guntram H. Herb, Dawid K. Kaplan ("UPA initiated Polish ethnic cleansing (know as the Volhynian massacre)") p. 722, George Sanford, ("Volhynian (West Ukraine) massacres") p. 101, Alexandra Wangler ("the massacres [of Poles] reached their peak...") pp. 162-163, Ewa Ochman, "massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia" p. 180, Per Anders Rudling ("OUN-UPA massacres of the Volhynian and Galician Poles", "the UPA massacres of Poles") [7], [8], Paweł Markiewicz ("the massacres of ethnic Poles in the Volhynia") p. 77, Keith Lowe, Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War II, ("The massacre of Poles") [9], H. Zeynep Bulutgil, ("UPA's massacres against the Poles in Volhynia") p. 107, Andreas Kapler, ("massacres among the Polish population of Volhynia"). p. 8, Franziska Bruder, ("The massacres in Volhynia...") p. 41. Hedviberit (talk) 17:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Whoa there! Not sure where you get that "massacres" is not the common name used in sources. Indeed, as Hedviberit above shows "massacres" is the most commonly used way to refer to this in the literature.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose The murder of Poles is a distinct event from the Holocaust. Poles were primarily murdered by Ukrainian insurgents (UPA), while Jews were mostly killed by Ukrainian collaborators (Galician SS), two very different organizations with different motives. Also, this request is a very dangerous approach, in which Wikipedia editors try to re-brand history on their own… there is plenty of online articles and references that recognize the Volhynia Massacres [10] as a distinct event. Using the same logic why not merge WWI and WWII articles under one article called World Wars.--E-960 (talk) 18:24, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Re: Jewish victims. Quote from Timothy Snyder. "A Fascist Hero in Democratic Kiev". The New York Review of Books. February 24, 2010. NYR Daily. UPA partisans murdered tens of thousands of Poles, most of them women and children ... Jews who had taken shelter with Polish families were also killed.  Poeticbent talk 18:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Your reference only confirms the fact that UPA primarily targeted Poles, while stating that Jews, along with Ukrainias who hid Poles were also murdered… again, the main goal of this ethnic cleansing campaign was to target Poles, who themselves were trying to hide. --E-960 (talk) 19:04, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Actually, I don't mind the massacres in the title. I made the request also to find out exactly what others think about the variety of well-sourced alternatives available in books. However, that does not change the fact that the scope of it was broader. Here's another quote about the Jewish victims from Grzegorz Rossolinski (2014). Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist. Columbia University Press. In addition to conducting the ethnic cleansing of the Polish population, the UPA, together with the OUN-B and especially the SB of the OUN-B, murdered Jews. The majority of the Jews killed in 1943 and 1944 by the Ukrainian nationalists had escaped from the ghettos in order to avoid the transports to Bełżec or being shot in front of mass graves. They hid in bunkers, or camps in the woods, or in peasant houses. Some of these Jews were killed as the UPA murdered Poles and destroyed their houses.[195] The survivors of these attacks frequently described the perpetrators as “Banderites” and considered them to be Ukrainian nationalists. (page 272)  Poeticbent talk 19:58, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Again, that may be true UPA also killed Jews (as well as Ukrainians who did not share their ideology), but these are two distinct issues (Ethnic cleansing of Poles by Ukrainian nationalists vs. Collaboration of Ukrainian nationalists with Nazis in the Holocaust). Mixing the two policies does none of the victim groups justice, and only causes more confusion. Your quote from above only confirms this "Some of these Jews" this implies that many more Jews were killed under different circumstances by UPA. --E-960 (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia {{Infobox}} is supposed to summarize the article content. Many historians confirm the same historical record. Jews were targeted at par with the Poles. The smaller number of casualties can only be attributed to the Holocaust and the wholesale annihilation of predominantly Polish Jews in the gas chambers of Operation Reinhard. But, the stats do not change the fact that that is what the WP:RS confirm, and you are just WP:CHERRYPICKING. Poeticbent talk 14:17, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
Poeticbent, this article has been originally set up to address the subject matter associated with Polish Ukrainian relations. No need to add other issues to… it's like taking the Armenian Genocide article and insisting that it gets renamed to "Armenian and Kurdish Murders", just to fit some individual narrative/POV. So, in the mean time, please stop trying to insert items related to this POV into the article while the discussion is going on, there is nothing wrong with the article focusing on the Polish issue. Also, it might be a good idea just to create a separate article regarding UPA and Jews to cover that separate and complicated issue. --E-960 (talk) 20:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Just looking at the Ukrainian Insurgent Army article, section 'UPA and Jews' the first sentence reads: There is a lack of consensus among historians about the involvement of the UPA in the massacre of Western Ukraine's Jews. As I suggested earlier, having two separate articles might be the correct option in this case. --E-960 (talk) 21:10, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose on the "murder" naming. "Massacres" is definitely the most commonly used term in English language sources. Also oppose the "Poles AND Jews" naming. Yes, UPA-B murdered/massacred both. But these were distinct phenomenon/actions. The murder of Jews took place mostly with future UPA-B members working as auxiliary police for the Germans (some were clandestinely in UPA-B already); that belongs in the article on Holocaust in Ukraine. The massacres which are the subject of this article took places as a result of specific "anti-Polish action" decided on by the UPA-B. Ambivalent on "Galicia" vs "Eastern Galisia". There were significant differences in how this played out around Lviv and Tarnopil vs Malopolska. But the two were closely connected.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bandera involment[edit]

The article points out the OUN-Bandera organization as one of the major participants in the Volhynia massacre. But I think it should be mentioned that Bandera himself was in a german prison during this whole period, and didn't participated in the massacres. I think this issue needs to be clarified, since it can mislead the reader about the role of Bandera himself in the events. 94.139.128.98 (talk) 07:53, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Bandera was not entirely cut off from politics and the activities of the OUN-UPA. The OUN-B knew that Bandera's wife visited him, and they used her to forward letters in both directions. Contact with Bandera could not have been difficult, because in 1943 the OUN-B in Ukraine bought cloth of the best quality, to be conveyed to Bandera by his wife, for a suit. According to the testimony of OUN-B member Mykhailo Polevoi, other people also had access to the Providnyk.
— Rossolinski, page 286

Poeticbent talk 19:15, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Estimates of casualties, Ukrainians killed by Poles[edit]

  • What about Ukrainians killed by Ukrainians? Xx236 (talk) 13:31, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
The only estimate I've seen was a brief comment by Snyder in one of his books. This area doesn't seem to have been really researched thoroughly.Faustian (talk) 23:02, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Sluzhba Bezpeky describes several cases of murdering Ukrainians. Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but there aren't many estimates of total numbers killed, other than Snyder's brief comment which seems to have been unique and rather questionable (he never repeated it anywhere else, and there is no corroboration from any other sources).Faustian (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

BBC News article / Notable examples of bad reporting[edit]

Adam Easton (a guy who hates Poland because he had hoped to become a correspondent in Honolulu instead of Warsaw) wrote in 2013 this manipulative article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23267472 It states that UPA killed 40 000 Poles and then the Poles "(...) retaliated and the conflict killed up to 100,000 people in total." It reads as if Ukrainians were the main victims in Volyn massacre. The reason I mention this is that maybe the wikiarticle should include a paragraph on notable examples of bad reporting on the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.230.57 (talkcontribs) 18:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

  • This is an anonymous blurb with no source of information, no agency, and no author. Adam Easton is mentioned in it; he is not the author of the blurb. In Wikipedia, we do not acknowledge such crap. Scores of Holocaust deniers operate in the English speaking world spreading lies of no significance whatsoever. If you wish, you can contact BBC News and report factual error with their own online story at http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 19:51, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Background section[edit]

Background section starts with sentence that Galicia and Volhynia were formed as disputed territories... This is based on whose definition?? And how exactly territories are formed in order to exist as "disputed territories"? Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Casimir the Great was the first King of Poland who become the Ruthenian Lord and the Galicia with Volhynia did not become Galicia and Volhynia, but rather Ruthenian Voivodeship meaning voivodeship of Rus (undisputedly). Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 21:25, 16 March 2017 (UTC)