Talk:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia

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mutual ethnic cleansing of Ukrainian and Polish people[edit]

made Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Polish Army with Polish battalions Schutzmannschaft (107, 202) [1], and Soviet partisans Myroslav Chekh. Як Москва відкрила браму до пекла на Волині. І українці, і поляки були пішаками у грі великих держав // «iPress.ua» from: Mirosław Czech. Jak Moskwa rozpętała piekło na Wołyniu // Gazeta Wyborcza, 08.03.2013 21:14 in 1943 during the Second World War in Volyn.--Бучач-Львів (talk) 10:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

In traditional Polish historiography biased perceived as ethnic cleansing exclusively Polish population; in Ukrainian - like "action in response to" the atrocities of the Poles on Ukrainian civilians. This topic is much more studied by Polish historians who deal with this problem by the end of the Second World War. In the works of Polish historians tends to exaggerate the Polish victims by impairing Ukrainian victims counted dead Ukrainian at the hands of the Poles as Poles were killed by Ukrainian and included among the Polish victims of other people in part even of Polish nationality who died in very different circumstances and who had no relation to Volyn Massacre. Ukrainian historians began to investigate primarily the subject after restore of Ukraine's independence in 1991.--Бучач-Львів (talk) 07:16, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Eastern Lesser Poland[edit]

Lesser Poland isn't about Eastern Lesser Poland. Xx236 (talk) 07:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Number of victims of the Volhynian Genocide[edit]

The number of Polish children, women and unarmed men, that were murered by the Ukrainian UPA army during the Volhynian Genocide was around 120.000. Many historians estimate that the number of Polish victims was not lower than 80.000 and could reach 140.000 people. 192.162.150.105 (talk) 12:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Violence against ethnic Ruthenians[edit]

The 1931 Polish Census recorded significant numbers of ethnic Ruthenians who declared themselves as such. Graphics making reference to that Census need to accurately reflect the data reported, and not distort it. Historical accounts from the region note that the Ukrainian nationalists used violence, or threats of violence, against the Ruthenians who had rejected the Ukrainian nationalist agenda.2601:44:8901:4240:19C6:8177:A623:25B6 (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

This guy is back. Unless someone can provide a Reliable Source indicating large numbers of self-identified Ruthenians being killed this is a marginal issue that deserves no more than a sentence or two in the article. with regards to census, reliable sources place "Ukrainian" and "Ruthenian" together and maps reflect this. Examples are here: [1], here: [2], even Piotrowski while including a table with official census results lumps Ruthenians together as Ukrainians in the text body: [3] which is the standard consensus approach of writing about this. No reason to make the issue more confusing by describing two ethnicities instead of one. Faustian (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
What guy? (That is a very sexist comment.) There was a negligible number of Ruthenians in Wolyn, but sizable numbers in Galicia, thus far less violence in Catholic Galicia. The religious and ethnic distinction needs to be noted. Since Ruthenians were 90% Catholic, this could be considered religious violence which was directed against them. Piotrowski is neither a historian nor an an ethnologist. Even if he, were, if you want to make a graphic for the Polish census, it needs to be factually accurate. The present graphic is not. Don't cite the Polish census for what it didnt' report, i.e., that Ruthenians were a subgroup of Ukrainians. It's academically dishonest and inaccurate. It also lacks a NPOV. Cite whatever else you want, but don't distort what the Polish statistical office published in 1931 to promote a nationalist agenda.2601:44:500:3408:5DEF:A62B:BDC0:AFFD (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I listed two reliable sources that use the data from the Polish census to combine Ruthenian and Ukrainian into one category: "Ukrainian." Here is one of these: [4]. Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth Century Eastern Europe. Authors are Poles, not Ukrainian nationalists. Here is one author, Piotr Eberhardt: [5].Faustian (talk) 02:41, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree. Also this user is removing the language map from all articles. The map doesn't separate out Ruthenians from Ukrainians but it is accurate (it just doesn't list every single language category). Volunteer Marek  15:21, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
No, if you want to cite the census, it needs to be reported accurately. Ruthenians were not Ukrainians before the war. The census did not report that. The violence by the Ukrainian nationalists is part of how they were forced into that ethnic identity. Issues about the census should be addressed on the census page 2601:44:500:3408:5DEF:A62B:BDC0:AFFD (talk) 17:46, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
The map incorrectly categorizes the self-declared ethnic Ruthenians as Ukrainians, nationally, and regionally. While the Ruthenians were forced into the Ukrainian state by Stalin and the Ukrainian nationalists subsequently, it is clearly not recognized that this had happened before the war, nor was it recognized by the Polish state. Statistically, the Ruthenians are 90% Catholic while Ukrainains are nearly equally divided. Magosci and other have noted linguistic differences between the two groups. Andrew Wilson noted in The Ukrainians: Unexpected Nation that communities from those who left the region now living abroad have a different accent. Kate Brown in Biography of No Place noted a unique Polish-Ukrainian dialect in the region. Russian sources have noted that the Galicians are ethnically different from other UKrainians. Clearly there were differences here, and the Polish census noted this. Ukrainian nationalist are hostile to this idea. Issues about the census should be raised on the Census page and not create different fiefdoms elsewhere2601:44:500:3408:5DEF:A62B:BDC0:AFFD (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
Ruthenians were mostly in Galicia, where Ukrainians were Catholic to the same degree as Ruthenians. Please stop attempting to hijack this article with your Ruthenian fixation.Faustian (talk) 02:43, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Problem with Scott's thesis[edit]

Suzanne Elizabeth Scott. (2009). The Failure of the Entente: Protection of Poland's Volhynian Ukrainian Minority, 1921-1939. Electronic Theses, Treatises and Dissertations (ETDs). pg. 54

According to Scott:

In August 1937, in response to an influx of Polish colonists, peasants refused to bring their crops to town. Industrial workers joined the strike in solidarity. The government took the opportunity to assert its power and quickly suppressed the strikes, killing at least forty-two strikers in the process.149

149 Ibid., 169. The number 42 is from government reports. The reports do not discuss wounded individuals. The likelihood that more people were killed and many more wounded is high.

Ibid. is: Seton-Watson, Hugh. Eastern Europe Between the Wars, 1918-1941. Boulder, Colorado: Westview Press, 1986. First published by Cambridge University Press in 1945.

In second edition of his book (1946) Seton-Watson makes quite a different claim (p. 169):

In August 1937 the Polish peasants organised a strike. They refused to bring their products to the towns, in a desperate attempt to obtain the attention of the Government to their needs. In some of the big towns the workers declared strikes of  solidarity. The Government sent the police into the villages and suppressed the strike by force. There were a number of armed conflicts, and the dead were certainly more than the forty-two admitted by the Government. The strike made a deep impression at home and abroad. It showed that the masses in town and country were hostile to the Government, and it was even believed in more than one neighboring capital that Poland was on the verge of civil war.

Snippet-view of the book

The wiki version based on Scott's thesis goes even further in assigning nationality:

In response to an influx of Polish colonists to Volhynia in 1937, Ukrainian peasants refused to bring food to the towns and Ukrainian workers went on strike in solidarity with the peasants. The Polish government crushed the strike, killing at least 42 Ukrainian strikers

I find it highly unlikely that the 1986 edition would give different account of events, because the strike in August 1937 was indeed a mass protest by Polish peasants, organized by People's Party and brutally pacified by the police. The official sources talk about 44 victims, the names of 42 were published at the People's Party congress in Kraków in February 1938. Were they all Ukrainians? I doubt it. 9 peasants, for example, were killed in Kasinka Mała which is quite far from Western Ukraine and certainly far from Volhynia.

Another source describing the strike of August 1937:

...in August 1937, peasant strike virtually cut off food supplies to the cities. The peasants called for a moratorium on debt repayments and for economic aid to help with high levels of indebtedness caused by payments for land obtained under the land reform acts. The decision to attack the government was the result of a split within the ZSL leadership. Witos called for an all-out attack on the ruling military coterie. Maciej Rataj, the chairman of the ZSL, had doubts about the effectiveness of strikes and was anxious about the likely consequences of relation. In the end, the decision was made to call for a peasant strike, which led to Rataj resigning. The Government' response was to send in troops. In battles which followed, 44 peasants were killed and thousands arrested.

Anita Prazmowska, Poland: A Modern History, I.B.Tauris, 2010, p. 126.

Hedviberit (talk) 17:27, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The wiki version is an accurate description of Scott's dissertation, which is focused on the Ukrainian minority in Volhynia and is clearer from the wider context of Scott's work (which is no longer available on-line, it seems - the old links don't work). There is the possibility that Scott was mistaken in the use of Seton-Watson. It would be good if more of Seton Watson were available online to confirm this, however, as based on the snippet "Polish peasants" could have referred to peasants who were Polish citizens, including ethnic Poles and Ukrainians (I am being generous to Scott here). Timothy Snyder's Sketches of a Secret War mentions violent strike actions in Volhynia in the mid-late 1930s with dozens of deaths.Faustian (talk) 18:42, 27 January 2016 (UTC)