Talk:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia/Archive 4

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Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

First sentence

Not sure about this, but wouldn't

"The Massacre of Poles in Volhynia was a campaign of ethnic cleansing conducted in Volhynia"

or an "act of" sound better than what is currently there? Ostap 04:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not a native speaker, but IMO an act would refer to a single incident, while in Volhynia there was a series of incidents, which lasted for several months. My hunch is that a campaign better reflects what happened then. Tymek (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually the history Volhyn doesn't inform about tolerant policy period in per-war Poland

Henryk Józewski As voivode of Wołyń, where Ukrainians formed the majority of the population, Józewski concentrated on improving relations between the Polish government and Poland's Ukrainian minority. He advocated a broad autonomy for Ukrainian self-governance, promoted Ukrainians to administrative posts, and sought to ensure their fair representation in the government. His administration included many former activists of the Ukrainian People's Republic. Józewski fostered Ukrainian and Polish-Ukrainian organizations. In education, he supported the teaching of the Ukrainian language and argued for the introduction of Ukrainian as the local official language. He declared that the Ukrainian national movement must choose between Poland and the Soviet Union. He opposed Soviet influences over Poland's Ukrainians and criticized certain Ukrainian organizations that he viewed as too Soviet-dependent or too extremist (e.g. Prosvita).''

This policy ended in 1938. But the fact of this period is missing from the overview and presents onesided account that doesn't include all data. --Molobo (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Molobo, I will add the material "about tolerant policy period in per-war Poland" that brought about the OUN violence as soon as possible. --Irpen 02:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Lead

Molobo's lead is unacceptable. First, it calls the events "in Volhynia" and mentions Galicia in the very next sentence thus making it a logic contradiction.

Next, it is clear from the article that the violence was mutual. Finally, "ethnic cleansing" is a judgmental POV term. It can only be used in an attributed form in the main body and only if it clearly shown that this is an overwhelming mainstream view (like Shoah being genocide), it can be used in the lead. --Irpen 02:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on the Galicia issue?
Violence was mutual - so was the violence during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, with Jewish fighters shooting at the German soldiers. Please consider the proportions.
Ethnic cleansing is a term used in many scholarly publications; that said I support using an inline reference for it, there are plenty to chose from. As far as I am aware it represents indeed the overwhelming mainstream view, can you present refs to the contrary? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

On Galicia, the article correctly states that the violence took place in Galicia as well as in Volhynia. However, the first sentence in Molobo's version for some reason mentions Volhynia only

Warsaw Gherro comparison, Piotrus, brings up the Godwin's law. Jewish fighters took on Nazi soldiers. Polish fighters massacred Ukrainian villages. I hope you can see the difference. --Irpen 02:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I retagged the article per no response. I hope there will be a discussion rather than another revert war. --Irpen 17:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

So, the article says (correctly) that the violence took place not just in Volhynia but also in Galicia. In fact, it was of a similar scale there. Thus, the first sentence definition (as well as the title) are simply misleading.

Second, the article correctly says that the violence was mutual and (Piotrus, please note) the AK violence was not limited to the fights with UPA fighters but also "fights" with Ukrainian women and children.

Next, I am totally taken aback by changing the section title to "more neutrally sounding" (as Piotrus claims) while disregarding how neutrally the article's title sounds. Since my edits are reverted with no explanation by familar editors who are taking turns, I tagged the article. Hopefully, some compromise could be found soon. --Irpen 18:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree with your points. With respect to the article title, the choice of the factually partially correct title involving Volyn seems to be driven by the fact that those events are collectively described as Volyn massacres or something like that in the Polish media (which is the media that most widely discusses those events). While massacre is a loaded word, there is a long list of wikipedia articles titled massacres when events are popularly referred to as such. I agree however that the ttile should reflect all victims. Perhaps a more nuetral title would be simply Volyn massacres rather than the current title; because the majority of victims were Polish civilians the body of the article would not change due to the change in title. Here's a link to a bbc article mentioning simply Volyn massacres: [1].
Given the popularity of the term "Volyn massacre", it wouldn't be inappropriate to use it as the article title although it should be mentioned in the lead that despite the name, the events also occurred in Galicia.Faustian (talk) 19:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

New lead and title

I would like to suggestthe following

Ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine during WWII

Massacre of Poles in Volhynia was an act of ethnic cleansing that took place in Western Ukraine from 1943 to 1944 primarily against the Polish population in Volhynia (Polish: Wołyń) and later spread to Galicia. In the years before, tensions between the Polish and Ukrainians escalated. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the German administration encouraged ethnic violence between the inhabitants on the territories it administered. As a result it is estimated that tens of thousands of civilians were murdered by various military groups. Most of the killings took place in summer and autumn of 1943. Although the Polish population was the primary target, Ukrainian and Jewish civilians were also killed in the cycle of violence that erupted. The numerical estimates vary widely and have become a subject of scholarly as well as political debate.


This I think covers all the bases and is sufficiently NPOV for an encyclopedic article. Comments??? Bandurist (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why your version omits the mention of Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the primary perpetrator of the killings? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Bandurist, Piotrus is right. There is no mention of who ethnically cleansed Volhynia of its Polish population and in this form the lead in unacceptable. I know your stance, you are Ukrainian, but please, this is going way too far. One might have the impression that Polish civilians were massacred by the Aliens. Tymek (talk) 00:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing

I would like to suggest that the article be re-titled to ethnic cleansing in Vohlynia as the escalation of inter-ethnic conflict was not just confined to Poles but also included Ukrainians, Jews, Roma, and Czech's. Bandurist (talk) 11:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The ethnic cleansing was concentrated on Polish civilians, but the title doesn't reflect this in either current or your proposed version. If you can show that ethnic cleansing is more often used in literature then massacres, I would have no objections. WP:RM is advised.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:58, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe "Ethnic cleansing in Western Ukraine" This would cover both Vohlynia, Galicia and the various nationalities that suffered. Bandurist (talk) 19:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this title used in literature of the subject? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think simply Volyn massacres would be most appropriate, per my comments in the previous section.Faustian (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

How about Inter-ethnic violence in Western Ukraine, 1943-1944? --Irpen 20:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

And this is used by what publications, exactly? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Ever heard of descriptive title that simply reflect the content? Because otherwise, "which publications exactly" use "Soviet repressions of Polish citizens (1939-1946)"? --Irpen 22:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, Volyn massacres seem most appropriate given what is said in the literature. This would encompass the massacre of Ukrainians by Poles. The real problem that massacres occurred in Galicia (thus rendering the title Volyn massacres technically incorrect) could immediately be dealt with in the lead, with a statement such as, "although these events are popularly referred to as the Volyn massacres, the killing of large numbers of civilians also occured in Galicia..."Faustian (talk) 22:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
User:Faustian's proposal is good. Ostap 22:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Please check our policies: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). Massacres of Poles in Volhynia seems much more common then other names. That said, I am not insisting on 'of Poles', as noted - Jews and Ukrainians (and individuals of mixed ethnicity) were also among the victims.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't get it. Are Galicia events marginal, unimportant, of a significantly lesser scale or what? Do you want a separate article for them? Why if so? Are they sufficiently unrelated? If not and if they are to be covered here, it just makes no sense to have the title that makes a misleading impression. Where they all "Polish citizens" by anyone's book. If the Ukrainians of former Eastern Poland are to be considered as much "Polish citizens" as the Poles even after Poland's demise, was not it a Massacre by Polish citizens of each other? I just don't understand why some love to use massacres in titles. --Irpen 02:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Forgive me for being sarcastic, but why not change Holocaust into Ethnic cleansing in Europe? Guys, let us be serious, we all know what happened in Volhynia back then and who was the victim. Changing history is pointless, I am not saying that the Poles always treated the Ukrainians in proper way, but here we face indescribable event in which Ukrainian nationalists massacred thousands of civilians, kids and women alike. I am insisting on Poles in the title, as for massacres perpetrated by Poles on Ukrainians, there should be another article written. We do not put German and Soviet atrocities on each other in the same bag. Tymek (talk) 04:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
While obviously Poles were the main victims (by 4:1 or 5:1) and the article should reflect that, the massacres of Poles and Ukrainians are linked and fed off one another. The murder of Polish and Ukrainian civilians were discussed together in this excellent article: [2]. Putting Poles in the title would be appropriate if the article only dealth with Poles. However, since some Ukrainians were also massacred by Ukrainian nationalists, and Ukrainians were massacred by Poles, in events that occurred at about the same time and were linked, creating different articles would seem to be artificial or inapropriate IMO.Faustian (talk) 13:43, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm slowly reading through the materials on the subject. In many ways it reminds me of a dispute between two children on a playground.

  • T) Who started it -
  • 1) He did because of this. -
  • 2) But he did that and that. -
  • 1) But he did this before,
  • 2) But he did that before that.

This particular conflict is a typical continuing spiral of conflict escalation. The outcome was tragic. Questions remain - from where did the conflict start, and from where should the article start. Obviously, a massacre of such proportions did not happen overnight for no reason.

What lessons can be gained from the event? Why was such an event allowed to happen?

Sure, you can support the title "Massacre of Poles in Volhynia", but it does not adequately describe the event? The title "Massacre of Poles in Volhynia" maybe the accepted title in the Polish version of Wikipedia, but I do not believe that it adequately describes the events and is all inclusive for the English version, which should have a NPOV and be all inclusive.

1) The title does not reflect the fact that this sort of ethnic cleansing of Ethnic Poles also encompased Galicia, Kholmshchyna, Pidliashshia. 2) The title does not include the other ethnic groups who were affected by the events, some of whom were percentage wise more affected than the Poles. In particular the Jewish population, which as larger than the Polish population in the cities of Western Ukraine were affected even more than the Poles. 3) I also feel that the current title is being aggressively adhered to in order to continue a particular POV, but that is just an opinion. Bandurist (talk) 11:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Basically, what I see is that some editors want to change the whole structure of the article, mixing different events and putting them in the same bag. This article deals specifically about sufferings of Poles in Volhynia, and franky speaking, I do not see why it should include other subjects. Jews - sure, a mention is good, but it should be covered by the Holocaust. Czechs - well, I saw somewhere that 300 of them died, a mention is desired, but changing of the title? This is an exaggeration. Ukrainians and their sufferings - I have no objection to creating a separate article, or expansion of Operation Wisla. Nobody writes or suggests a joint article about sufferings of civilian population of Germany and civilian population of Soviet Union. Keep it as it is, there is a link to Oppression of Ukrainians in the 2nd Polish Republic, which should also include terrorist tactics of Ukrainian groups (somewhow it doesn't) I do not see the need for such a drastic change and there is no need to create a mega-article, which would deal with all different subjects. Tymek (talk) 18:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
The article on The Holocaust also includes not only Jews but also Poles, other Slavs, gypsies, etc. If four villages of Poles were massacred and at about the same time one Ukrainian village was, why should all of these events be split into separate articles?Faustian (talk) 18:36, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't support a split now, but I am sure at some point we may need a separate subarticle dealing with suffering of only Ukrainian population (just as we have WWII articles about suffering of only Poles, or only Jews, for example).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I recall a political cartoon about the conflict in former Yugoslavia, with "I am killing you because your grandfather killed my grandmother...". As Bandurist say, everybody was guilty. We should be thankful this is behind us - and that we can discuss this calmly and in good faith (btw, I will say that my opinion of Ukrainians and Ukrainian editors is constantly rising, due to my good interactions and experiences with them on Wiki :). As I said before, I would not object to removing 'of Poles'; however unless it can be shown that a significant amount of killings took place outside Volhynia, I'd support keeping this name, as it is the one more commonly used to identify this event (consider, for example, a random massacre in village x: some killings might have taken place outside it, but we don't speak 'massacre in village x and the valley behind it'; same for battles and such). Heck, Napoleon's invasion of Russia could be described as "Napoleon's and his forces invasion of Russia, Russian partitioned Poland, Russian controlled Cossack territories and whatsnot" - but we are not going to be renaming it, are we? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, however I cannot agree with you. I feel the current title is somewhat inflamatory, in particularly when considering some members of our reading community. By changing the title, we will not only avoid inflamatory edit wars in the future but in my opinion more accurately depict the various sides of this tragedy. Keep in mind that such topics have been used by various scholars to actually escalate anatagonisms which still exist and are alove out there in the community.

Regarding your comments re Ukrainian editors I would like to recipricate. It is much more pleasurable to discuss differences than to have stuff shoved down your throat, which seems to be happening with some topics dealing with Russian Ukrainian relations. I prefer the more "European" approach.


The Serhiychuk book is very intersting. He has reproduced a large number of previously secret documents, in particular (from what I am currently reading, documents pertaining to the organised wholesale deportation of Poles from Volhynia signed by Krushchev (with others). After I have had time to chew on the materials I will post them for your perousal.


Re Napoleon's invasion of Russia and "Napoleon's and his forces invasion of Russia, - I don't think that such topics are as loaded as topics using terms like massacre or genocide. Personally I find such terms and their implications quite distasteful.

Having said that. It is your article. All I want to do is have you consider another title for the reasons I listed above. Bandurist (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist, with all due respect, I really do not think that this title is inflammatory. These massacres are an established fact, as well as victims of them. I am repeating myself again - the article presents the fate of Poles in that land, there is no need to split it, divide it or rename. It was not a clash of two armies, it was an act of ethnic cleansing of medieval character. I am glad that those times are over, and as a fan of soccer, I am looking forward to Polish-Ukrainian Euro 2012, but we must not change history. There is an article about a different massacre, this time commited by the Poles, and its title should also remain unchanged. Tymek (talk) 03:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Tymek, it's fine to have separate village massacre articles. But here we are talking about mutual interethnic violence when UPA burned Polish villages and AK burned the Ukrainian ones. This is not about separate villages but about an interethnic conflict where Ukrainians, admittedly, had for a short period an upper hand. Splitting this into "Ukrainian Massacre of Poles" and the "Polish massacre of Ukrainians" is POV forking in its most textbook form. The article should cover the whole violence and be clear that more Polish civilians were murdered in this set of events than the Ukrainian ones (no one denies this fact.) --Irpen 03:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Irpen, in Volhynia the Ukrainians had the advantage all the time. Poles took revenge elsewhere, like in southern part of Lublin Voivodeship, but the article does not cover that area. In Volhynia it was not mutual, one side attacked and murdered another. Tymek (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. For example when researching Zamość Uprising I also found information about the German plan to resettle some Ukrainians in the region; the plan failed as the Polish resistance took control of the region and the Germans were forced to protect Ukrainian colonists as much as their own German ones.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Irpen: "The article should cover the whole violence and be clear that more Polish civilians were murdered in this set of events than the Ukrainian ones (no one denies this fact.)" - true, but there is one more difference: the murders done by Ukrainians were largely a result of a organised, planned action of ethnic cleansing and that fact alone means that there should be a separate article about that particular action. VivecPL (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Except that no documentation exists of plans to actually murder large number of Poles.Faustian (talk) 21:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
So far no documents have been found, but seriously, I do not believe that this campaign was not pre-organized. I cannot imagine those illiterate peasants from Volhynia, living in scattered villages in the woods and swamps, to prepare everything by themselves from scratch, especially the events of July 11, 1943, which were coordinated and covered a large area with no roads and no railroads. We know that peasants of Volhynia considered themselves Russian rather than Ukrainian well into the XX century. My opinion is that the idea of massacres was brought to them by the well-educated, nationalist-minded activists from Eastern Galicia and they joined it, perhaps not because they followed mad, bloody policies of Ukrainian organizations from Galicia (getting rid of all Poles), but because they saw it as an opportunity to loot some goods. I am emphasizing - this is only my opinion. Tymek (talk) 23:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Faustian: there is some documentation, which does prove that OUN/UPA did order ethnic cleansing and some form of mass murder of civilian population, although it does not prove that they've ordered genocide.

From "Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX wieku",Karol Grunberg and Bolesław Sprengel, Warsaw 2005, translation from Polish:

Fragment 1:

"In June of 1943, OUN-SD ordered the UPA command to 'Without delay and as fast as possible finish the action of total cleansing of Ukrainian territory of Polish population' "

Fragment 2:

"The goal of such pogroms were clearly defined in the secret directive of the territorial UPA command "Pivnich" [Piwnicz]: 'We should conduct a great action of elimination of Polish element. After the departure of German troops, we should utilise this convinient moment to eliminate all male population aged from 16 to 60 years(...) forest villages and villages near large forest masses should disappear from the face of the earth' "

In the light of these two fragments, especially the second one, it's obvious that at least some kind of ethnic cleansing and mass murder of civilians was premeditated - though the second fragment does indirectly suggest that women,children and old men were to be spared, murdering all males aged 16-60 is still mass murder of civilians. VivecPL (talk) 04:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong here - I don't have time to check now - but the second quote may have come from a "confession" told under NKVD interogation by a captured UPA-North fighter who worked directly under Klym Savur (the head of UPA-North). I have read a confession with similar theme in a massive on-line publication by the Institute of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences; the work notes the fact that the information was obtained through torture (implying he may have said what his torturers/interogators wanted to hear). Piotrowski described the same confession but completely ommitted the facts of how it was obtained, merely stating what was said as if it were the truth, which seems rather misleading of Piotrowski. There is no doubt that UPA ordered the forced removal of Poles from Volynian territory; this is well documented. But despite many UPA documents having been found, including secret ones, documents describing killing of political enemies, "traitors", communists, etc. no document exists showing orders to kill Polish civilians

(although documents include confessions by UPA fighters that they have killed Polish civilians). The mass scale of the massacres means that UPA must have participated, there's just no evidence that this was a policy ordered from the top.Faustian (talk) 04:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that ethnic cleansing is better. A massacre is an event, while ethnic cleansing is a campaign. The attacks on other ethnic groups was limited (by their low numbers), while the goal of these organized attacks was to rid the area of Poles, many of whom were recently arrivals (settlers and worker communities) seen by Ukrainian nationalists as a alien element. Framing the killing of Ukrainians by Poles as a response is fair (whether or not the response itself was fair), meaning that the article could be entitled "Ethnic cleansing of Volhynia in the 1940s". You do not have to mention the word "Pole" in the title. It is clear from the text.Tanessi (talk) 12:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Another idea is "Ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia". This follows the convention in many other Wikipedia articles. Also, I cut out part of the Norman Davies quote that cited as many as 500,000 deaths. This must have been taken out of context because there were not even this many Poles in Vohynia. Snyder gives 1939 Polish pop. of Volhynia as 400,000, but that by 1943, there were only 200,000 living there. Davis and others are cited in the table with figures up to 100,000. Readers will be confused if we keep the 500,000 figure. Tanessi (talk) 12:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Nice sources

Thanks Faustian for catching it. Piotrus insists on using sources that say (from Faustian's talk):

"...Ukrainian genocide was characterized as a rule by tortures of the utmost barbarity. These reached back to the Cossack traditions of the XVII th and XVIII th centuries (the Khmelnitsky Uprising 12 and the uprising of 1768 called "kolistchyzna"13), with the methods in use at that time - hacking Poles and Jews with axes, throwing wounded victims into wells, sawing people alive, horse-dragging, eye-gouging, pulling out of tongues, and other atrocities 14. Such acts of barbarity were not as a rule employed by the Germans or even the Soviets. Of course there were beatings and frequently bestial cruelty during interrogations 15 or in concentration camps (where this was accompanied' by starvation and backbreaking work, sometimes criminal medical experimenlation in German camps, etc.), but it was not usual for the murder thal took place there to be combined with the cutting off or pulling out of parts of the body, sawing, ripping open of the stomach, disembowelment, and so on 16"

Well, what can I say. By the author's rating the degree of evilness increases from Germans to Soviets and further to Ukrainians. Nice source indeed. And it is restored again. What scholars are we to see next? --Irpen 22:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Good question. What Ukrainian scholars are we citing? PS. Could you translate and comment on this image? I wonder if it should be added to the reconciliation section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:20, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Piotrus, the source quote above is not Ukrainian. It is Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski. So, you push scholars who say the horrific stuff above and invoke the message from the moder Ukrainian National-Socialists as what? Did anyone added them as sources? --Irpen 23:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Transtating per your request:

Poland Repent! Volhynia remembers the burned out villages. During the occupation of Volhynia by Poles more than 100,000 Ukrainians were murdered. Signed by "Volhynian regional organization of the Social-National Party of Ukraine (address), Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host."

Does not look reconciliatory to me. --Irpen 22:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Both Polish and Ukrainians have their extremists, thus I ask again - can more sources be presented about the reliability of the Ukrainian POV? Who are the reliable Ukrainian scholars studying this issue, and who are the less reliable ones? For the record, I support creating a historiography section, where we should note that authors such as Poliszczuk, Prus or Siemszko's are of lower reliabity than Wnuk, Motyka or Torzecki. But we should also not equal of them; for example it appears that works by Siemaszko's are considered better than those of Poliszczuk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Except that no one is citing "the Social-National Party of Ukrainian, Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host".Faustian (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
While some cite "Siemaszko, Siemaszko, and Szawlowski". --Irpen 23:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
As soon as you present academic criticism of such sources, we can consider removing them from this article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
That's a high burden of proof - Szawlowski may not get the attention of say a Poliszczuk. I wonder if any academics have criticized the Volhynian Sich of the Zaporozhian Host. If not, should we include that organization's writings as a source? How about this - before including info from a source that states that from better to worse were Germans, Soviets, and Ukrainians, how about some academic sources that state that the source (such as Szawlowski) is okay.Faustian (talk) 23:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
How about we use common sense? Ostap 23:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
With regards to Siemaszko's, I've given you refs to reviews on talk. I have no idea who Szawlowski is? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The most recent scholarly materials that I know of are primarily Volodymyr Serhiychuk's books from Kyiv. I recently got a copy of "Поляки на Волині у роки другої світової війни" published by the Kyiv state University in 2003. He has another interesting book - about the Deportation of Poles from Ukraine which was published in 1999 which I used for an article not long ago about Polish deportations. I'm gradually working my way through the book. Another interesting book is Mykola Siwicki's book Записки сірого Волиняка published in Lviv in 1996 which is also very interestingBandurist (talk) 02:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. We should probably cite those works in the article, at least in the further reading section. It is currently dominated by Polish sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Who is responsible for the massacres?

There is a prevalent notion in Poland that the UPA is responsible for the slaughter of Poles in Volhynia. Poles do not know about different fractions within the UPA as well as different Ukrainian paramilitary organizations, existing then. Perhaps Ukrainian editors would be able to clear this out here on talk. Norman Davies leaves no doubt and states clearly that it was the UPA. Tymek (talk) 16:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

As seen on the UPA article, there were gangs of armed bandits (Ukrainian and Polish - presumably the Ukrainian ones were the ones who would have killed Polish civilians) avoiding military service who didn't belong to UPA or AK who looted or robbed or killed people. Both UPA and AK sometimes used deadly force against these bandits. Also, Ukrainian peasants who weren't members of UPA were documented killing Polish civilians.Faustian (talk) 17:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The question, then is: was UPA the major driving force behind such actions? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Serhiychuk also mentions and publishes documents where various non-military groups killed Poles i Vohlynia. In the documents that I have so far seen there has been no evidence that the UPA (Bandera faction) which took over in Volhynia had blatantly ordered any ethnic cleansing operations, although I have come across documents regarding punitive actions. Bandurist (talk) 23:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
From "Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX wieku",Karol Grunberg and Bolesław Sprengel, Warsaw 2005, translation from Polish:
Fragment 1:
"In June of 1943, OUN-SD ordered the UPA command to 'Without delay and as fast as possible finish the action of total cleansing of Ukrainian territory of Polish population' "
Fragment 2:
"The goal of such pogroms were clearly defined in the secret directive of the territorial UPA command "Pivnich" [Piwnicz]: 'We should conduct a great action of elimination of Polish element. After the departure of German troops, we should utilise this convinient moment to eliminate all male population aged from 16 to 60 years(...) forest villages and villages near large forest masses should disappear from the face of the earth' " VivecPL (talk) 19:12, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What were the original source documents these excerpts were taken from? Bandurist (talk) 22:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

1) If I understand it correctly, the Wikipedia's "NOR" policy means that we do not have to determine what documents were used by a historian in order to have the historian's work taken in account.

2) Nevertheless, I checked the book again and found out that Grunberg&Sprengel took it from works of Władysław Filar, without providing where Filar took that from.

3) Incidentally, I've found a website where some fragments from Filar's works are posted, complete with footnotes:

http://www.lwow.com.pl/semper/wolyn.html

The fragment #1 I've posted is not there, but we have section of text containing my "fragment #2":

'W tajnej dyrektywie terytorialnego dowództwa UPA - "Piwnycz", podpisanej przez "Kłyma Sawura" (Roman Dmytro Klaczkiwśkyj) czytamy: "(...) powinniśmy przeprowadzić wielka akcję likwidacji polskiego elementu. Przy odejściu wojsk niemieckich należy wykorzystać ten dogodny moment dla zlikwidowania całej ludności męskiej w wieku od 16 do 60 lat(...) Tej walki nie możemy przegrać, i za każdą cenę trzeba osłabić polskie siły. Leśne wsie oraz wioski położone obok leśnych masywów powinny zniknąć z powierzchni ziemi". 17.'

Where the source 17 is "Archiwum SBU Obwodu Wołyńskiego, d. nr 11315, t. l, cz. H, s.16."VivecPL (talk) 04:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Much appreciated. I'm just curious whether these were written and published directives from the historic time period or materials gathered aurally (hence secret) during the interrogation process. (talk) 11:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Tim Snyder also clearly divides actions of UON-Bandera - the group responsible for actions in Volhynia- from UON Mel'nyk, which supported the organization of the Galizien Waffen SS division. The Bandera branch had not been controlled by Bandera since 1941, since he was in prison, but it kept his name. Most of the group's original leaders had been imprisoned or killed by 1943. I have, however, read that many Galizien SS soldiers were involved in ethnic cleansing in Volhynia in 1944. Snyder also mentions this. It also seems a bog mistake not to even mention among all the details of the brutality of the massacres that they followed a pattern used many times in later ethnic cleansing. That is, victims were mutilated and put on display in order to scare off other Poles. This helps explain why the murders were so brutal and graphically displayed. Instead, we read the NOT even the Germans and Soviets were as cruel as the Ukrainians, which is a rather far-fetched conclusion. The UPA tactics were tailored to a specific kind of campaign of terror. It is silly to use Germans or Russians as "measures" of brutality that even the Ukrainians exceeded. The quotes we provide on what the brutality looked like is very graphic and does the trick without the use of cheap rhetorical tricks. Tanessi (talk) 13:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The soldiers of the Galzien division are often indiscriminantly blamed for a lot of things by various interested sides. They however were never in Volyn nor in Warsaw. They had their battle in Brody where they were defeated and then were regrouped and retreated to Slovakia and then Italy. Bandurist (talk) 11:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Questions

I have a few questions to those involved, thank you all in advance for helping out.

  • has anybody been punished for these massacres? Not only average peasants-murderers, but also leaders of this campaign of ethnic cleansing?
  • does this sad topic ever appear in Ukrainian mass-media? Do people talk about it? Do they know about what happened?
  • does anybody know more about ethnic Czech village of Kupiczow (some 30 kilometers south of Kovel), with 3000 inhabitants, which also was attacked by the UPA but managed to defend itself with help from the Poles?
  • also, this is not about Volhynia, but still interesting. The town of Kuty was the center of Polish Armenian community. In January of 1944 the UPA murdered some 500 people there, Poles and Armenians alike, those who survived settled in Oborniki Slaskie. Does anybody know more about this massacre?

Thank you again Tymek (talk) 19:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC).

Tymek: Punishment- between what the NKVD did to all Ukrainian nationalists (and many others) and the Operation "Vistula" campaign by the Polish govt. and trials of Ukrainian nationalists, people were punished for these campaigns, but by kangaroo courts for the most part. I am checking on who the Poles may have put on trial 1945-49. This topic is often in the media. I remember the uproar when 'Ji' published an entire issue on the subject. 'Ji' is a pro-Western journal (incl. U.S. govt. funding) available on-line, which tires to being Western discourses to Ukrainian audiences.Tanessi (talk) 05:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

This deals with Ukrainians in the West, but is an excellent and informative article on the topic: [3]. regardsFaustian (talk) 01:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic

IMO this part of the article should be either trimmed down or expanded. Without a doubt Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic was persecuted, but this section presents one-sided picture of reality. The Ukrainians had their representatives in the Polish Parliament. In 1928-1930 there were 26 of them, including Marshall Deputy of the Sejm, Volodymyr Zahajkiewicz. In 1935 there were 19 of them and in 1938 - 14, including Vasyl Mudry. There were numerous Ukrainian organizations, like Prosvita, Luh and UNDO, several newspapers and sports organizations, including the soccer team Ukraina Lwow, which was close to promotion to the Ekstraklasa. I am awaiting opinions. Tymek (talk) 18:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it is balanced as is. The fact that there were some organizations, and some newspapers and even a soccer team is nice ... but what you will notice (and what Ukrainians noticed at the time) is that the number of schools, organizations, newspapers, churches etc did not correspond to the percentage of Ukrainians in the population - whereas for other minority groups such as the Czechs, Germans and Jews it was. It may be worth while expanding this section into a separate article, but I am obliged to leave it as it is Bandurist (talk) 14:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
If we expand it, the whole subject of the article will be lost, as it is not about Ukrainian minority in interwar Poland. IMO this topic should as a whole be moved to the Ukrainian minority in Poland article, leaving only a notice here. As for schools, the 1939 Statistical Yearbook of Poland informs that in 1937-38 there were 3064 bilingual Polish-Ukrainian schools, with 473 400 students. Ukrainian peasants organization Silsky Hospodar had 403 offices. In 1938 there were 14 Ukrainian theaters - not very good, not as bad as this section presents. Tymek (talk) 19:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
As it stands the section is to the point and gives some perspective and context of what was happening before this all exploded. It parallels what children say when you ask: Why did you hit him? (You get the answer) He called me a name. Why did you call him a name? He looked at me funny. Why did you look at him funny? etc.

However, I feel that an expanded separate article would be worthwhile doing. It would have to be handled carefully to get bth perspectives, but it needs doing. Bandurist (talk) 22:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian list

I have read that the president of Ukraine has endorsed publication of a voluminous report on genocide in the present territory of Western Ukraine. I do not know the title of this work, this source [4] says that four volumes have been published so far. Polish publicist Antoni Marianski gives numbers, provided by the Ukrainian report, and these numbers refer to a few counties in Volhynia:

  • 5935 Ukrainians were killed by the OUN
  • 1248 Ukrainians were killed by the NKVD
  • 1225 Ukrainians were killed by the Germans,
  • 32 Ukrainians were killed by the Polish nationalists.

Tymek (talk) 13:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Lipica poster

I feel that the Lipica poster should be removed. The photograph on the cover has been shown to have been done much earlier as is of a gypsy's children she had killed. the illustration is inflamatory, misleading and denigrate the integrity of he article. Bandurist (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I would say it should be removed if it was just that photograph. However, it is part of a poster, seen on Polish streets. Whoever created this poster, reportedly made a mistake, but there is nothing we can do about it. Tymek (talk) 02:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

International Military Tribunal

Note: the below is the transcript of Lahausen saying what he remembered he overheard other people saying saying 6 years earlier. Whether he remembered correctly, or whether those other people were themselves correct in their assumptions (was Ribbentrop an expert on Ukrainian matters?) is not included.Faustian (talk) 15:11, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

  • A very interesting affidavit by the Major General ERWIN VON LAHAUSEN – head of Abwehr Division I since 1939 regarding Canaris diary and Canaris’s memorandum (Three copies of Canaris’s memorandum of Sep 12, 1939, exist: one in the ‘Canaris–Lahousen fragments’ – a hitherto neglected file of key documents and extracts from the Canaris diary (al/1933); one in Groscurth’s papers (n.104/3); and an abbreviated copy in Lahousen’s IMT file (3047–ps); cf. Lahousen’s pre-trial interrogation of Sep 19, 1945, and Vormann’s diary, Sep 12, 1939: ‘Göring and Brauchitsch here at Ilnau. Canaris on account of Polish population)
Place: Fuhrer train as of 12 September 1939, shortly before fall of Warsaw – participants – Hitler Ribbentrop, Keitel, Jodl and Canaris with his personal representative colonel ERWIN VON LAHAUSEN.

Keitel

meeting in the coach of Keitel, who was then Chief of the OKW, and in the course of this meeting Keitel summarized and commented on the general political directives issued by Ribbentrop. He then mentioned several possible solutions for handling the Polish problem from the point of view of foreign policy – this can be happened, or something else can happen; it is quite possible. I this connection he said: “You, Canaris, have to promote an uprising with the aid of the Ukrainian organizations which are working with you and which have the same objectives, namely, the Poles and the

Jews”. [5]

Ribbentrop

all farms and dwelling of the Poles should go up in flames, and all Jews be killed”

[6]

National Ukrainians with which Amt Abwehr cooperated along military lines, and which were to bring about an uprising in Poland, an uprising which aimed to exterminate the Poles and the Jews.

[7] Interesting, but info about this failed “uprising” appeared at Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army by Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine work published in 2004 and removed from website of Institute of Ukrainian History at Yuschenko times (Chaper 1 Tactics and Strategy of OUN at early stage of WWII pages -17-23 ) . So a more interesting thing what such “apprising” initiating specially by Bandera – while Melnik strictly oppose to such action in early 1940. So here will be not so surprise if in

OUN (B) General Instruction adopted in 1941 stated

“Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), Poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.”

Was at [8] p.62-64. Here would be interesting to state – in light of assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia – what from more 160 Poles- professors in Lwow for immediately extermination were selected “only” 38, which were more or less actively during 1940-41. So everything is Clear – initially they exterminate all Jews and after completion so (see IMT *Exhibit USA-277 (Document L-18) “Solution of Jewish question in Galicia” dated 3 June 1943) they start for “second” object – by ‘hands” of same “employees” - German auxiliary police, deserted with their weapons to join the units of UPA at Volhynia. Their number was estimated from 4 to 5 thousands - from the Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - 2004 editionJo0doe (talk) 15:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

[9] Interesting, but info about this failed “uprising” appeared at Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army by Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine work published in 2004 and removed from website of Institute of Ukrainian History at Yuschenko times (Chaper 1 Tactics and Strategy of OUN at early stage of WWII pages -17-23 )

Wow - so you suggest that the work of the Instittue of History of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences is tainted by politics? Was it untained during the Kuchma regime or just tainted now? What does that tell us about its reliability, when its conclusions change with the political winds?Faustian (talk) 17:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Book removed. Conclusions remain less detailed but does not changed - simply less detialsJo0doe (talk) 06:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
While it's great what you've not include this stuff

There is a transcript in which an Austrian officer says that 6 years earlier he overheard Keitel tell Canaris that Ukrainian organizations and Nazis had the same goal. You have so far not included any proof that the IMT agreed with what Keitel allegedly said.Faustian (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Jo0doe (talk) 07:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Questions

The following statement Before the occupation by the German Army in October 1939 the Polish Army destroyed the village of Zhulyn in the region of Stryj is either untrue of the date is wrong. In October of 1939 Polish Army did not exist any more. All units were destroyed either by the Germans or the Soviets. Also, the German Army never reached that far east in the fall of 1939. Tymek (talk) 17:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

In the article the Polish army retreated away from the town with the encroachment of the Nazis. When the Nazis did not enter th town but stayed behind some premarked line the Poles returned to the town and this is when the attrocities happened. Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Bandurist, there was no Polish Army in October of 1939. And there was no German Army in Stryj in October of that year. I really think there is something wrong here. Tymek (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The sentences above can also be understood as Before the German Army arrived in October 1939, the Polish Army had destroyed the village of Zhulyn in the region of Stryj. -- Matthead  Discuß   00:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Matthead thanks for your input, however, the German army did not arrive in Stryj in October 1939. Nice try, however. Tymek (talk) 00:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Also, I have doubts about these sources The newspaper "Krakow News" for April 1940 reported and Just in the second half of 1939 wrote H. I. Kuntz in his article "again in Lviv" printed in the "Berliner Berzenazeitung" the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians. Are we going to use Nazi newspapers in the articles? I see it as a sad joke. I have no idea what happened in the villages of Zhulyn and Dulib, but using official Nazi newspapers as sources is a gross exaggeration. 60,000 Ukrainians? Where, when? Tymek (talk) 17:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
It is however a legitimate source and an independent one from the Ukrainian sources which I thought that you would think biased. All you have to do is to show that it is incorrect.Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
A murder of 60,000 Ukrainians, which happened God knows where and God knows when? And described in a Nazi newspaper? If such a massacre really happened, I am sure some reliable sources would have described it. Tymek (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The source of the information is from an article included is the book Українсько-польський конфліцт під час другої світової війни. Зошит 2 Львів-2003. It is one of the sources used for that particular article.Bandurist (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Thirdly, The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina - this time, a Soviet source. BTW was there a Soviet newspaper Vilna Ukraina in the fall of 1939? I heard about Radianska Ukraina only. Tymek (talk) 17:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes there was a paper in Lviv called Vilna Ukraina. It continued to be published until the 1990's when a competitor "Za vilnu Ukrainu" was published and continues to be published. There was a joke regarding the newspapers they used to say in Lviv. - A guy comes up to a newspaper counter and asks: Do we have Vilna Ukraina - Nyet is the answer. Howabout Pravda - Nyet. Well what do you have - Trud (hard Labour) for 2 kopecks.Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the joke, but the point is that a 1939 Soviet source is hardly reliable. Tymek (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Another one: The Sovet newspaper "Komunist" for October 20 also published a report from its correspondent in Berlin about the massacre of 80 Ukrainian cultural figures in Lviv. Again, a gross exaggeration. A Soviet newspaper, which based information on a Nazi newspaper. I do not think that Wikipedia should be based on such sources. Massacre of 80 Ukrainian figures? When, what figures? Tymek (talk) 17:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Once again, the source of the information is from an article included is the book Українсько-польський конфліцт під час другої світової війни. Зошит 2 Львів-2003. It is one of the sources used.Bandurist (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It is however a legitimate source which you can do your research to check its claims.Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Bandurist, it is you who provided the source, not me. Again, I am not denying it, perhaps there was a massacre of 80 Ukrainian figures. However, we need a reliable source - when, who was killed and by whom. Tymek (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The source of the information is from an article included is the book Українсько-польський конфліцт під час другої світової війни. Зошит 2 Львів-2003. It is one of the sources used.Bandurist (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi and Soviet propaganda are hardly reliable sources.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, how come a Nazi photo which had been deleted on Commons was uploaded by you to En Wikipedia recently? -- Matthead  Discuß   00:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Nazi and Soviet sources have their unreliablity however there is also a lot of truth mixed up in there as well. The thing now is to check these claims. Bandurist (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
First of all, we have to check if sources provided here can be regarded reliable, per WP:RS Tymek (talk) 05:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The materials are taken from the book The Ukrainian Freedom movement Book 2 The Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the Second World War published in Lviv 2003 by the Centre for study of the Freedom movement. Центр досліджень визвольного руху. науковий збірник. Український визвольний рух. Зоєит 2. Українсько-польський конфлікт під час Другої світової війни - Львів 2003. The editorial board consists of Professor Yaroslav Dashl\kevych, prof. Volodymyr Kosyk, prof. Volodymyr Serhiychuk, prof. Yuri Slyvka, prof. Volodymyr Stoiko, Volodymyr Viatrovych, Mykola Posivnych and Mykhailo Romaniuk. These look like pretty credible people to me. Bandurist (talk) 15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, a massacre of 60,000 Ukrainians, which is not described by any other source than a Nazi newspaper, is hardly credible. Same with murdered 80 Ukrainian figures. I find it improbable, there are no other sources than this. Let me remind you that Polish authorities did not execute activists of OUN, kept in Bereza Kartuska, they all survived Polish prisons. Tymek (talk) 16:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

So – one more source from “Liberated Ukraine” in July 1941 – Lemberg City Council weekly newspaper - “Ukrainski Shchodenni Visti” #18 from 26 July 1941

“…Через море крові, яку пролляли більшовики,здавалось б, ще не знайдеться жодного народу, який би не був вдячний німцям за визволення від більшовистської неволі». Про те очевидною є співапраця поміж поляками і євреями, яких повязала прихільність до більшовиків, а також ідея винищення українства. Немає жодної подлості які б не скоїли ці московськи поплічники»

(from http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/16.pdf p.232) Jo0doe (talk) 07:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist, these names sure look credible, however, I have serious doubts if these professors have seriously treated Nazi/Stalinist propaganda as a reliable source. My guess is that they used the information provided here as examples of propaganda. Otherwise, I do not really think this book should be regarded seriously. Information provided by you here simply is wrong, and either you translated in uncorrectly, or these professors lie. 1,200,000 Ukrainians killed by the Poles beats all I have seen on Wikipedia, and I have seen a lot. With such information provided here, this article will be the laughing stock of all who want to find knowledge in the project. Tymek (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
* As regards to Bandurist “source Centre for study of the Freedom movement” at Lwow. So –it’s private institution which registered as legal person less then 2 years ago – so I got a doubt about existence of book published by them in 2003. So currently this institution known for malicious OUN/UPA propaganda full of lie, lie by omission and twisting and misusing the facts. It has no affiliation with Institute of History National Academy of Science of Ukraine. Moreover in 2003 was published a huge work by special commission consisted of Poles and Ukrainian historians. – so here a conclusions:

СПІЛЬНИЙ ВИСНОВОК УКРАЇНСЬКИХ ТА ПОЛЬСЬКИХ ІСТОРИКІВ ЗА ПІДСУМКАМИ ІХ-Х МІЖНАРОДНИХ НАУКОВИХ СЕМІНАРІВ (Варшава, 5-11 листопада 2001 р.)' Українсько-польський конфлікт у роки Другої світової війни набув особливо драматичного характеру на Волині. У 1942 р. дійшло до перших акцій з боку українських націоналістів проти поляків, що працювали в сільськогосподарській адміністрації та лісництві. Ці акції поступово поширилися на польське сільське населення східних повітів Волині. Антипольські акції керівництво ОУН обґрунтувало прагненням всіх польських політичних сил повернути адміністрацію Польської держави на теренах Волині та Східної Галичини. Навесні 1943 року після переходу до УПА української поліції, що перебувала на німецькій службі, почалися бурхливі дії партизанських загонів українських націоналістів. Від весни 1943 року ОУН і УПА вдалися до масових антипольських акцій - спочатку у східних повітах Волині, а згодом у центральних і західних. Перебіг подій засвідчував, що рішення про екстермінацію (за термінологією польських істориків) польського населення могло бути схвалене проводом ОУН весною 1943 року. Польське підпілля на Волині, що перебувало в стадії організації, не могло надати допомогу польському населенню. Радикальні заходи були вжиті Командуванням Волинського округу АК і Окружною Делегатурою уряду тільки в другій половині 1943 року, тобто зі значним запізненням і після масових вбивств польського населення в західних повітах Волині. на католицькі свята Різдва Христового 1943 р. на Волині прокотилася нова хвиля вбивств. У польсько-українському конфлікті, кульмінація якого припадає на 1943 рік, польське населення було стороною, що оборонялася. Лише створення в січні 1944 року 27 Волинської дивізії піхоти АК, призначеної для боротьби з гітлерівцями в рамках плану "Бужа", оберегло значну частину польського населення. польські партизанські відділи, організація яких почалася в другій половині липня 1943 року, нараховували тільки 1300 осіб. Лише створення в січні 1944 року 27 Волинської дивізії піхоти АК, призначеної для боротьби з гітлерівцями в рамках плану "Бужа", оберегло значну частину польського населення. Попередні підрахунки втрат опубліковані в доповідях семінару в томах "Польща - Україна: важкі питання". У доповідях також зазначається, що дії бойовиків ОУН і відділів УПА проти польського населення вражають своїм розмахом, у кількості жертв з обох сторін немає симетрії, але це не може нам заступати того факту, що і з українського боку були численні невинні жертви, зокрема на Холмщині. Окрім людських втрат, польське населення зазнало величезних матеріальних збитків. Уціліле населення було змушене залишити рідні сторони, значну кількість поляків окупанти вивезли на примусові роботи до Німеччини.

Українські історики: проф. Володимир Баран; доц. Гурій Бухало; доц. Володимир Дмитрук; проф. Богдан Заброварний; доц. Ігор Ільюшин; доц. Юрій Киричук; проф. Віктор Колесник; проф. Костянтин Кондраткж; проф. Станіслав Кульчицький; доц. Микола Кучерепа; магістр Віталій Макар; проф. Юрій Макар; проф. Степан Макарчук; доц. Віктор Матійченко; магістр Вікторія Оніщук; проф. Володимир Сергійчук; проф. Юрій Сливка; Євген Стахів; проф. Володимир Трофимович; проф. Михайло Швагуляк; доц. Ігор Цепенда. Польські історики: проф. Анджей Айненкель; проф. Едмунд Бакуняк; д-р Ґжегож Грицюк; проф. Чеслав Гжеляк; проф. Збігнев Карпус; проф. Ян Кенсік; проф. Міхал Клімецький; д-р Здіслав Конечний; д-р Ришард Котарба; проф. Ґжегож Мазур; д-р Ґжегож Мотика; д-р Збігнев Польський; д-р Чеслав Партач; проф. Адцжей Пачковський; проф. Вальдемар Резмер; д-р Анджей Л. Сова; проф. Владислав Філяр; д-р Марек Ясяк.

Jo0doe (talk) 09:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi’s slave labor campaign in light of UPA actions

Just an interesting facts: many of those who escaped from OUN(B)/UPA “actions” Nazis collected and moved to “labor camps”, some of survivors “voluntarily” joined such relocations – there a plenty of such info here [10] . I early spring Hitler and Koch, Erich met to discuss increasing the number of slaves from Reichskommissariat Ukraine. So OUN(B)/UPA never suffered (no such reports in captured OUN(B)/UPA documents) from lack of ammo (as for instance Soviet partisans. Also would be useful to cite info from UPA/OUN(B) SB – security service - report: “…during reporting period (1-10 Sept 1943) 17 Poles families liquidated (58 persons)… Area in generally clean. There no pure-breed Poles. Issues of mixed families under resolving” - Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Chapter 5, p. 249-250 – there a numerous similar Jo0doe (talk) 14:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a note of that would be useful in Forced labor in Germany in WWII? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:02, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Preamble

With the fall of Poland, numerous atrocities took place against the Ukrainian civilian population. Before the occupation by the German Army in October 1939 the Polish Army destroyed the village of Zhulyn in the region of Stryj. The newspaper "Krakow News" for April 1940 reported that the Polish People's Guard after retreating, re-entered the village of Zhulyn and neighbouring Dulib. Upon discovery of Ukrainian flags on the houses, all the buildings were set on fire and those that tried to escape were bayonetted and thrown into the fire. Twelve year old Mykola Pylypov, a resident of the village had his ears, and nose cut off, eyes gouged out and then sprayed with gasoline and then set on fire.[1]

The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina" began to be published in Lviv from September 25, 1939. In almost every issue brutal accounts about the Ukrainian victims of Polish terror began to appear documenting murders of Ukrainian priests, their families and various Ukrainian cultural figures. Accounts regarding the anti-Ukrainian terrorist actions were also reported in the Soviet press. The Soviet newspaper "Komunist" for October 20 also published a report from its correspondent in Berlin about the massacre of 80 Ukrainian cultural figures in Lviv, the destruction of Ukrainian buildings.[2]

Just in the second half of 1939 wrote H. I. Kuntz in his article "again in Lviv" printed in the "Berliner Berzenazeitung" the Poles murdered over 60,000 Ukrainians. [3]

In the Sambir area on 17 September 1939 members of the Polish Border guards and the People's Guard burned down the village of Zhukotyn and Nedilna and killed Ukrainians living in the villages of Rozluch, Verkhnyj Luzhok, Busovys'ka, Spas, Tershiv and also Staryj Sambor.[4]

Numerous accounts of inhumane treatment by the Poles against the Ukrainians during the 1919-1939 period were allowed by the censors which attest to the fact that the German administration were interested in firing Polish-Ukrainian antagonism. An analytical article documenting the conyinued terror against the Ukrainians in Poland was printed in the official publication of the Gernaral-Government "Krakawer Zeitung" inder the title 1,220,000 Ukrainians were victims of Polish terror". [5]

From 1942-43 in the forests of Volyn 6 different armed formations were in action. 1) Members of the OUN (B) self-defence league (from October 1942) which later formed up with the UIA and fought the Germans and Soviet and Soviet partisans. 2)Members of the partisan groups under the direction of Taras Bul'bas-Borovetz 3) Soviet partisan groupings (from 1942) 4) Polish partisan groups, AL (Armiya Krayova) under command of the Polish government in London. 5) Partisan groups associated with the Melnyk faction of the OUN which appeared in 1943. 6) Polish communist partisan groups under the direction of Moscow.

This whole chapter looks like a sad joke of deteriorating Wikipedia standards. Again - no Polish Army existed in October of 1939, by October of that year, German Army withdrew west and the Soviets occupied Stryj. In 1939 or 1940 there was nothing like Polish People's Guard. The Ukrainian newspaper "Vilna Ukraina" began to be published in Lviv from September 25, 1939 - please, Soviet occupying forces would never allow publication of indepentent Ukrainian newspapers. Polish partisan groups, AL (Armiya Krayova) - dont know what it is supposed to mean, AL stands for Armia Ludowa, a communist, pro-Moscow organization which simply did not exist in Volhynia. First Volhynian unit of Armia Krajowa was not created until early 1944. Polish communist partisan groups under the direction of Moscow. - those units were Armia Ludowa, which, as I said, were never operating in Volhynia. Writing an encyclopedia which is based on lies, misinformation and Soviet/Nazi sources really destroys the whole project. Tymek (talk) 17:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
BTW 1,220,000 Ukrainians were victims of Polish terror. Well, how about checking the Volkischer Beobachter or Pravda? Perhaps we can find 2 million victims there. Bandurist do you really believe in all this stuff? Tymek (talk) 17:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
All I am doing is quoting and translating from a book. October should be September (I translated it inaccurately. Whether I believe the information I think is secondary. This is what is currently being published. I do however believe that Ukrainian attacks on the Polish population did not just happen out of the blue. I do think there was a continual escalation incited by other parties which resulted in the tragedy and I think that in the analysis one has to understand that this should never happen again. By the way, even one victim is too many. Arguing over who had more victims is not too productive. Bandurist (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
You have selected the book, one of thousands. Xx236 (talk) 08:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have removed this section per WP:RS, see here [11]. Feel free to add it, but with reliable sources. Tymek (talk) 00:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
As much as I prefer to save and improve content, I support the removal - it had too much OR and/or Nazi sources to be anywhere near reliable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
  • 3) Soviet partisan groupings (from 1942) 5) Partisan groups associated with the Melnyk faction of the OUN which appeared in 1943. –OUN (B) version of history?
So it’s expected from Centre for study of the Freedom movement” at Lwow – but, per WP:Policy WP:QS above mentioned info must be appeared at article Centre for study of the Freedom movement only. ThanksJo0doe (talk)
See here http://www.archives.gov.ua/Archives/Dzerelna_baza.php

автор, однак, вважає, що їх слід оцінювати в світлі положень про злочини проти людяності, що містяться в Статуті Міжнародного Військового Трибуналу від 8 серпня 1945 р., а також в "Конвенції у справі запобігання і покарання злочинів геноциду" Організації Об'єднаних Націй від 9 грудня 1948 р. Тут відзначимо і таке, що для виправдання воєнних злочинів нерідко посилаються на противоправну поведінку протиборствуючої сторони як підставу для допустимості цих злочинів. Однак, безвідносно до цього, у Женевських конвенціях від 1949 р., які в свою чергу базуються на нормах XXII статті Гагського положення 1907 р. про закони та звичаї війни, чітко сформульований принцип обмеження воюючих у виборі засобів і методів ведення бойових дій та покарання за порушення цих обмежень. В IV статті Конвенції у справі запобігання і покарання злочинів геноциду від 1948 р. підтверджено принцип карної відповідальності осіб, яки припустилися геноциду, незалежно від того, чи є вони відповідальними за конституцією правителями, посадовими або приватними особами. Держави повинні карати осіб, які винні у скоєнні актів геноциду, незалежно від того, чи є відповідні держави учасниками даної Конвенції, чи ні.

Jo0doe (talk) 09:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


Berliner Berzenazeitung - wow!

Volhynia or not ?

The Massacre of Poles in Volhynia ...in Volhynia and eastern part of Galicia - absurd.Xx236 (talk) 08:03, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Massacres of Poles ?

Ukrainian nationalists killed many (thousands?) ethnic Ukrainians or members of mixed families. Thedy killed also many Jews, not all of them Poles.Xx236 (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Slaughter of Jews took place there in 1942 and it falls under Holocaust, I think. As for the Ukrainians, killed by the UPA, one can find information on it in the article. However, we have to remember that these Ukrainians were killed either for not participating in the slaughter of Poles or for helping the Poles. So it all comes down to the Poles anyway. Tymek (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
The same people killed three groups - Jews, Poles and bad Ukrainians. The Holocaust context should be explained to readers, who don't know the context. I believe the slogan was - Let's kill Jews, Poles and Communists. The ideology was common. AK troops saved a number of Jews. Xx236 (talk) 10:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
When you say "the same people", which group exactly do you have in mind ? UPA ? When did they kill the Jews ? --Lysytalk 11:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian Insurgent Army quotes (and probably misquotes also) some sources. It's interesting that one cannot find The Holocaust in Ukraine article.Xx236 (talk) 13:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Ukrainian policemen, who participated in the Holocaust, deserted and joined the UPA. Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

However, no known documents exist proving that the UPA-OUN made a decision to exterminate Poles in Volhynia

The quoted text is about ten years old.Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Here is one of 2003 [12].Xx236 (talk) 08:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Dmytro Dontsov

Dmytro Dontsov should be probably mentioned in the article.Xx236 (talk) 15:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I will add him asap. Tymek (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Prelude

I am removing this section, Bandurist please do not restore it, until you find reliable sources, which I highly doubt. And if you restore it, I will have to report you. Sorry, but we are trying to create a reliable encyclopedia, not a storage of Nazi and Stalinist propaganda. Tymek (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Responsibility

Sadly, this article has deteriorated into chronicle of Polish-Ukrainian real or alleged conflicts. It serves an obvious purpose - to relieve the perpetrators of the responsibility. I have never seen a German editor who tries to justify the Holocaust by claiming in Wikipedia that the Jews did this and that or that the Jews lived in ethnic German lands. Here, we have several attempts aimed at claiming that whatever happened, the Poles are to be blamed. Any human being should agree with me - under no circumstances, there should not be any justification of the mass slaughter of women and infants. The stance of the OUN-UPA was clear from the beginning - all Poles, good and bad, had to be slaughtered, no matter if they had been good to the Ukrainians before.

Polish specialists who carried out exhumations both at the site of the Katyn massacre and in some places in Volhynia, said that Katyn looked like a nursery. Bodies of Poles in Volhynia, including children, were chopped with axes, scythes and God knows what else. A Home Army commander of Volhynia, who lived in Lutsk, always carried a gun with a bullet for himself, as the Poles caught by the Ukrainians were praying for a quick death, which hardly happened. Tortures used by the murderers were unheard of, wounded children were even thrown into pigstys full of hungry pigs. And these were not separate incidents, the atrocities took 2 years until the OUN-UPA fulfilled its murderous plan.

Polish composer Krzesimir Debski lost both grandparents in the massacres. When he went to Volhynia, he met some elderly locals, who talked how good Debski's grandparents were. So he asked Why then you killed them?. The answer was Because it had to be done. Would you have killed my parents too, if you had had a chance?. Yes.

It strikes me, also here on Wikipedia. Some circles in the Ukrainian side, unfortunately, are totally unwilling and unhelpful and their stance is to deny all or blame the Germans, whose role is exaggerated by the Ukrainians. Polish historians complain that so far, no extensive research in cooperation with their Ukrainian counterparts has started. Hopefully, the Ukrainians from Western Ukraine will one day realize what their grandparents did. Currently, however, all we have are mass demonstrations of UPA veterans and erection of monuments. I am awaiting opinions. Tymek (talk) 01:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, there is a difference between justification and explanation. A background section explaining some reasons about why it happened - the context of the massacres - is quite appropriate. Explaining of course does not mean excusing. The Volyn massacres are better compared to what happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990's than to the Holocaust. The Srebrenica massacre contains some background (i.e., describing how the Serbs felt that Bosnians used Srbrenica's status as a safe area to attack Serbs and retreat into the safe area).
It should also be pointed out that not all UPA participated in these massacres and that not all people who massacred Poles were UPA. As the composers' sad case illustrates, many villagers took part. I have also read how even non-UPA guerillas of Bulba Borovets took part, not because of ideology but to become more popular with the villagers. Faustian (talk) 02:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there are unavoidable over-simplifications on both sides. UPA was not as homogeneous as we might imagine it today. And also the distinction between UPA and non-UPA activities was not obvious in the historical circumstances in Volhynia. Nevertheless, UPA will be held responsible for what happened, as it was the major power in the area and bot conducted and supported these actions.
As for the background on the Ukrainian hatred towards Poles that culminated in these tragic way, one has to go back to the beginning of 20th century, the WW1 Polish and Ukrainian drive towards independence, the conflict over Galicia, Austrian policies of supporting one side or another, the military conflict over Lviv, the Piłsudski Kiev offensive and the later Polish betrayal of Ukrainian allies in Riga, Polish settlers in Western Ukraine, the nationalistic policies of Polish government in the 1930s - all that could only contribute to growth of frustration of Ukrainians and hatred towards the Poles. This of course does not justify the tortures and murders of men, women and children or does not reduce the responsibility of the murderers but this was the background. --Lysytalk 11:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%.Faustian (talk) 16:04, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Lysy, you are right, and we have a chapter here describing the background. I just do not want the background to be more important than the very topic of the article. Also, we cannot omit policies of the OUN, which from the very beginning wanted to remove of all non-Ukrainians from these lands and which in the early 1930s organized large scale terrorist attacks. Stance of OUN was clear - no collaboration with the Poles, no negotiations, only open conflict. Tymek (talk) 16:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I have created a stub-section "Responsibility" to discuss all this. Responsibility is a very difficult but important issue. It's still not an obvious and a very controversial issue, some may simply put all blame on UPA, others will blame both Polish and Ukrainian nationalisms, the brutality and the greed of the primitive peasants, or the Germans, who had the responsibility to keep order in the territories they occupied. Having this discussion isolated in a separate section of the article will help us keep the rest of the article tidy. Can we agree on that, that we will move all the "blame" advocacy to this section ? --Lysytalk 17:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Rework

This article is too long and full of marginal or irrelevant details and discussion, it's also not readable. Can we try to shorten it, and make sure that it stays focused on the merit, without all this advocacy of one or another side of the conflict ? --Lysytalk 12:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do. Tymek (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

memo: two interesting recent radio recordings in mp3: http://www.polskieradio.pl/iar/wiadomosci/artykul58091.html The second one is by a Ukrainian historian Ihor Iliuszyn. --Lysytalk 22:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Soviet Union (1939-1941)

I'm a bit confused about the Poles fleeing from Volhynia to the Nazi zone. Was it a significant number, warranting this being mentioned in the article ? --Lysytalk 12:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi occupation (1941-1944)

"The idea of the deportation of the Polish population in Western Ukraine" requires some more explanation, as currently it's unclear. Who was deported where ? How was this relevant to Volhynia ? --Lysytalk 12:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Genocidium atrox ?

Is this term notable enough to be mentioned in the article ? I've searched for English sources with google but found none. --Lysytalk 20:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it is relevant. We never know, perhaps in the future it will be commonly used to describe events like this. Tymek (talk) 05:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me the term is a pseudo-classical neologism (why Latin?). It's not widely used in Poland, and completely unknown to English language. --Lysytalk 14:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Stealth rename

I'm upset by the way Bandurist attempts to change the name of this very sensitive article without any attempt to discuss his idea with the other editors first. --Lysytalk 00:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Depolonization of Volyn - well, it takes a vivid imagination to come up with this. Bandurist, how about changing Holocaust into Dejewishization of Europe? Tymek (talk) 05:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The term "Massacre" when used fro the Volyn tragedy was first applied by E. Prus in his work Prus E. Heroi spod znaku tryzuba: Konowalec - Bandera - Szuchewicz - Warszawa, 1985. Prus belongs to the more extremist Polish nationalist school of historic thought. He uses sensationalism and does not back up all his claims with reliable sources and as a result much of his work has been discredited.

The term De-polonisation was introduced by Polish historian was T. Olszacski in Lukaszow J. (Olszacski T. A.) Walki polsko-ukrainkiej 1943-1947 //Zeszyty Historyczne 1989 - 90 - S. 159-199 in (1989) and was quickly taken up by the more liberal and democratic historians in Poland as being more descriptive and less inflamatory.

Your choice of terminology and source of materials IMHO steers this article in a direction which only promotes distaste, and not an understanding of the phenomena. Bandurist (talk) 10:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Bandurist. I don't think Prus published in English, so how could he possibly coin the English term ? Over the couple of years I've spent on English wiki, I realized that the word "massacre" is surprisingly disturbing to russophones, who routinely object against its usage in any circumstances. In English language it is a perfectly valid term, implying nothing more than its meaning - the brutal and intentional killing of a group of people, which actually happened. Maybe Ukrainian language has a similar issue to Russian, and the word "massacre" has some more complex meaning in it ? Anyway, I've scanned google for the English names for the events and it seems that massacre is the most common term in use. Also, if you check the wikipedias in other languages, they use similar terms without any problems, again with the exception of the Russian one, which uses "Волынская резня" and Ukrainian, which uses "Волинська трагедія". In Polish language the events are widely referred to as "Rzeź Wołyńska". Why do you think that the current title "steers the article in a direction which only promotes distaste" ? I'd also object the title you proposed, not only because it's not widely used, it's euphemistic but also it contains a thesis, that the only reason for the cruelty of the killings was "de-polonization", while recent research indicate, that the greed of Ukrainian peasants could also be one of the motives. If only "de-polonization" was the reason, the goal could have been achieved with much more peaceful and humane methods. --Lysytalk 13:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Please note that none of the Prus publications is used as a source for this article. --Lysytalk 14:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Volhynia or Volyn ?

The article uses both Volhynia and Volyn names in different places. Can someone explain this please ? --Lysytalk 14:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Volhynia is a transcript from the German. It is often used by German Mennonites and by Jews who have emigrated from the region. It gives 12,000 hits on Google. Volyn is the current name and a more correct transcription. It gives 88,000 hits on Google. It is also the prefered term used by Brittanica. Bandurist (talk) 14:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Can we standardize on either ? The wiki article uses the name Volyn, so it would be more natural to stick to this one, perhaps. --Lysytalk 15:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The article was at Volhynia until Bandurist recently moved it, citing usage by Britannica. However, the online Britannica uses Volhynia, as does Columbia. Paul Robert Magocsi's Historical Atlas of Central Europe (2002) uses Volhynia as well. Olessi (talk) 04:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I see. Still I don't understand why we are using both forms. Is it at random or is there a meaningful pattern. Myself I'm using Volhynia or Volyn at places - I'm obviously confused. If there's no reason to use both forms throughout the article, I'd rather stick to one of them. --Lysytalk 06:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Eastern Galicia

I'm not sure what to do with the "Eastern Galicia" section. It should present the events in a more synthesized manner instead of going into all the details of the names of the priests etc. But I'm not sure if it belongs to the article in the first place, as Galicia is not Volhynia. Theoretically, it could be a separate article, but then we would have two articles to guard against the attacks of various hyperactive nationalistic fighters and trolls, so maybe it should rather stay here in a somewhat compacted form ? --Lysytalk 19:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

What happened in Eastern Galicia was directly connected with Volhynia. After the Poles had been eliminated from there, activities of the Ukrainian nationalists were concentrated in Eastern Galicia and same thing happened there on a similar scale. The only difference was that the Poles in Galicia were more numerous and better organized, therefore, less people died. It should remain. Tymek (talk) 22:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree but where/when do we stop then ? --Lysytalk 22:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
We could rename it into Massacres of Poles in present Western Ukraine, and it would be the name that covers the whole phenomenon. Few people know that Poles were also killed by the Ukrainian nationalists in Bucovina, which had been part of Romania in the interbellum and the atrocities did not end after the Red Army entered the area of current Western Ukraine. However, I have doubts if other editors will agree with my suggestion. Tymek (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Nay, I would not rename the article for now, but in order to maintain some discipline it's good to be aware of the scope of the subject it covers. There are at least three aspects:
  1. Only UPA driven actions or others as well ?
  2. What time scale ?
  3. Geographic coverage ?
I for one would prefer to stay minimalistic. --Lysytalk 23:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The current title is of the same quality as Tykocin pogrom which was "a pogrom and subsequent massacre", where the pogrom meant that the Germans called the Tykocin Jews to assemble early morning in the market square. Words have a certain meaning. Xx236 (talk) 08:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me put the question another way them - what do we want the article to cover ? UPA massacre of the Poles in Western Ukraine or less (in Volhynia only) or more (not only UPA) ? --Lysytalk 09:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Ryszard Szawłowski as a source for this article

The man is a lawyer, not a historian. An example of his work indicates that he is as credible a source as the UPA itself would be. Here are quotes from a review written by Szawlowski [13]:

"Ukrainian genocide was characterized as a rule by tortures of the utmost barbarity. These reached back to the Cossack traditions of the XVII th and XVIII th centuries (the Khmelnitsky Uprising 12 and the uprising of 1768 called "kolistchyzna"13), with the methods in use at that time - hacking Poles and Jews with axes, throwing wounded victims into wells, sawing people alive, horse-dragging, eye-gouging, pulling out of tongues, and other atrocities 14. Such acts of barbarity were not as a rule employed by the Germans or even the Soviets. Of course there were beatings and frequently bestial cruelty during interrogations 15 or in concentration camps (where this was accompanied' by starvation and backbreaking work, sometimes criminal medical experimenlation in German camps, etc.), but it was not usual for the murder thal took place there to be combined with the cutling off or pulling out of parts of the body, sawing, ripping open of the stomach, disembowelment, and so on 16."

As Irpen stated, "by the author's rating the degree of evilness increases from Germans to Soviets and further to Ukrainians. Nice source indeed."

More from Szawlowski's review: "Let us add that on a European scale, as far as dreadful tortures go,the genocide committed by the Ukrainians on the Poles is only comparable, to a certain extent, to the Croatian genocide (by the Ustasi of Ante Pavelic) against the Serbs during World War II from the spring of 1941. "

And: "As for the stance taken by the upper levels of the clergy of the Greek-Catholic Church, which has taken, in the present day, the rather pretentious and ethnocentric name of Byzantine-Ukrainian Church..."

Szawlowski also defends Wiktor Poliszczuk the non-historian while methodically critiquing actual historians such as Hrycak or the Polish historian Ryszard Torzecki in his article.

We should probably avoid such a source of information as Szawlowski. It seems about as credible as the work of an UPA member.Faustian (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about Szawłowski, but I would be inclined to agree with some of his comments about the cruelty. Anyway, as I mentioned before, I'm rather mixed about having him mentioned - I don't feel this increases the quality of the article. As for the "rather pretentious" name of Byzantine-Ukrainian Church, "inventing" terms like genocidium atrox seems more pretentious to me. --Lysytalk 23:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Lysy, why you dislike the genocidium atrox? Because it was coined by a Pole? The termGenocide also was coined by a Pole. As for Szawlowski, the fact that he is a lawyer should not dismiss his works. If we reject all sources written by non-historians, half of Wikipedia would remain unreferenced. And a comment - unlike the Nazis or the Soviets, who had their own professional units of killers, genocide in Volhynia and Galicia was largely carried out by Ukrainian peasants. Level of cruelty was unheard of, even in wartime Europe. As I wrote before - Poles in Volhynia dreamed of a quick death, alas it seldom happened. It seemed like the perpetrators found pleasure in slow, merciless tortures of any Pole they caught, e.g. they levelled with axes a Polish beggar in one village, who had a hump. Szczepan Siekierka, a witness from the area of Tarnopol, who still lives, talked about numerous Polish kids, impaled on wooden poles. Tymek (talk) 23:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I have no doubt about the cruelty. My doubts are about mentioning genocidium atrox in the article. If it's notable then why doesn't it have an article of its own ? As I said, it did not even pass the google test, so the whole concept is probably unheard of outside certain circles in Poland. --Lysytalk 23:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
The fact that Szawlowski is not a historian is one of several things that argue against his work's inclusion here. His stated belief that in order of evilness Ukrainians were the worse, then Soviets, then Germans is another one. The fact that Szawlowski has the highest praise for a propagandist such as Wiktor Poliszczuk (whom real historians dismiss) while criticing actual historians also argues against his work's inclusdion here. When it comes to a controversial issue we ought to be extra careful with sources and strive for the highest standards. Szawlowski doesn't come close to meeting any sort of standard. If we include Szawlowski, we might as well include UPA propogandists too.Faustian (talk) 00:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Faustian, I think it's not about the evilness but the cruelty of the Ukrainian peasants. Why were they so cruel ? The differences in the civilisation development in Poland are visible even today when you move from the west towards east, and they were even larger in the times before WW2. Were the peasants in Volhynia more brutal, cruel or primitive than e.g. in Poznań area ? Of course. Why ? Because they were civilisationally backward, I don't know how much, perhaps 100 years behind but the differences between the east and the west were huge. How else could you explain all these needless tortures ? --Lysytalk 00:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree about the cruelty. My problem is with using Szawlowski as a reference. Plenty of legitimate historians such as Norman Davies, or Snyder, also describe this cruelty and are included in the article. There is no need to add Szawlowski to it.Faustian (talk) 00:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Role of Sluzba Bezpeky

I think that we should also add information about UPA's Sluzba Bezpeky, which was kind of the political police, and whose members were regarded as the most ruthless, both to the Poles and those Ukrainians who disagreed. Tymek (talk) 22:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I thought about it too. They largely contributed to the terror among Ukrainians in Volyn. --Lysytalk 23:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I've reviewed the sources of the article, and while some are indeed scholarly books or other publications, there are many that are just some more or less obscure webpages, magazines etc. Can we try to use quality sources only ? Otherwise we'll never be able to make it a decent article ... --Lysytalk 07:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Volhynia and Eastern Galicia

Now the article says Two is three. Either the title is Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia or the first sentence should be in Volhynia only.Xx236 (talk) 10:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The title is not descriptive. The scope is explained in the lead. Please see the discussion above. --Lysytalk 11:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Geography and the Germans

As much as German influence has to be taken into consideration, I think it is an exaggeration to claim that the massacres were result of German policies. This sentence in the lead However it culminated in the bloodshed only when Germans occupied Galicia and Volhynia and began encouraging inter-ethnic violence in the territories they controlled is a simplification, which tries to put too much blame on the Germans. Let me point out some facts:

  • we all know that in 1942-1943 the Germans controlled not only western Volhynia, but also eastern part of the province, around the city of Zhitomir. A numerous Polish minority lived and still lives there, yet local Ukrainians did not attack their Polish neighbors. Why? Did the Germans stop their divide and conquer policies at the border town of Korzec?
  • I find it odd that almost all Poles were killed in the Ukrainian-populated county of Sarny, yet in the neighboring, Belarusian-populated counties of Pinsk and Luniniec, there were no massacres. Did the Germans want to divide the Poles and the Ukrainians, but not the Poles and the Belarusians? Odd, isn’t it?
  • massacres in Eastern Galicia continued well into 1945, even after the war. There are cases in which Poles set to leave their hometowns and go to Silesia, were killed at the eleventh hour. What do the Germans have to do with it?

Please note that all massacres took place only in territories with strong presence of OUN-UPA, as this organization did not exist in pre-1939 Soviet Ukraine. Elsewhere, in ethnically-mixed lands, there was no slaughter of this scale.

Awaiting comments. Tymek (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Massacres in Volhynia actually preceded OUN-UPA control over the nationalist movement there. The later massacres occuring in Eastern Galicia may often have had different causes than the ones in Volyn. Sometimes they were the result of perceived Polish collaboration with Soviet forces. For example, read pages 117-119 here: [14]. This is one example. Polish informants in the village of Snovychi, Galicia, led to a Soviet raid in January 1945 that resulted in 74 Ukrainian rebels being captured. In reprisal, when UPA returned to the village eight Polish men and one Polish woman from the village were tied up and burned alive in their houses. Polish collaboration with the Soviet authorities as informants was so significant that after the Poles were deported from east Galicia en amsse at the end of 1945 the local NKVD officers were complaining that they no longer had any informants to let them know what was going on in the villages.Faustian (talk) 16:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
There were tens of thousands of Ukrainians who also collaborated with the Soviets and who fought in the Red Army. Still, I would be happy to get the answer about German influences, which are IMO grossly exaggerated. Also, IMO, events in Eastern Galicia were direct continuation of massacres of Volhynia. With regards. Tymek (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and those ones from Western Ukraine were also treated savagely by UPA. For example, wives of Red Army soldiers were often murdered in a very brutal way. However, regular people (peasants) seemed to have been much less invovled in Galicia than in Volyn during the massacres. I don't know why. This is my Original Research, but I speculate whether higher educational level in Galicia may have contributed. Or perhaps also the efforts of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. The hierarchs of the Greek Catholic Church tried very hard to prevent involvement in massacres (the Church's head threatened any participant or even any associate of participants with excommunication). Volyn was Orthodox, however.Faustian (talk) 17:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Very probably. Also, the proportions of the forces were different in Galicia than in Volyn, where the Ukrainians had almost complete control over the situation. --Lysytalk 17:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Tymek, that the last sentence in the lead, while true, suggests a simple and false answer to the question of responsibility. I'll try to rephrase/expand it a bit. --Lysytalk 16:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC) Let we look at Soviet-German front-line at the time, when the Galicia “action” stared – i.e. since end of 1943 – all becomes clear. . So OUN(B)-UPA “success” in 1943 and “fault” of 1944 in Galicia very simple – they lost support of masters. So “stories” of Poles- “soviet agents” killed in 1943-44 for “soviet collaboration” in January 1945 – so it’s still OUN(B)-UPA indulge attempt by “12 Germans battalions defeated by UPA-ghost fighters” author

  • I once again highly recommend IMT materials – “same objectives”.Jo0doe (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Also look this one [15] - and wording here http://www.ukemonde.com/bandera/ - isn't actions of editors look sweety similar? Jo0doe (talk) 11:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Faustian, as much as peasants were less involved in massacres in East Galicia, they were equally cruel, with Poles having been tortured and killed there in a slow manner in the same manner as in Volhynia. Statements of survivors leave no doubts about it. Tymek (talk) 01:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Could be, once they became involved, some of those Galician peasants didn't seem different from Polish peasants 100 years earlier who revolted against Polish nobles and were similarly brutal (sawing people in half, etc.).Faustian (talk) 03:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian police

I've tried to link to an article about the Ukrainian collaborationist police but couldn't find it. Is there an article similar to Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202 but about the Ukrainian police, not Polish ? --Lysytalk 17:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This article, though focussed on Jewish issues, is a good one about Ukrainian nationalist police: [16].Faustian (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
May be OUN(B) proponent police?
  • I assume such articles does not exist in WP because “group of editors known of thousands lienes” in WP will be strongly oppose to such historical facts Jo0doe (talk) 11:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje16/text11.htm

In his final report on "The Solution of the Jewish Question in Galicia," SS- Gruppenfьhrer and General Lieutenant of the Police Fritz Katzmann singled out those who aided him in the difficult job of making the District of Galicia judenfrei. They were "the forces of the Security and Order Police, the Gendarmerie, the Special Service and the Ukrainian Police." Kaztmann, SS- Gruppenfьhrer und Generalleutnant der Polizei, "Lцsung der Judenfrage in Galizien," 30 Juni 1943, International Military Tribunal, Nьrnberg, German, USA Exhibit 277, L-18, p. 18 (consulted in YVA, O6/28-1). Katzmann's authoritative report is quoted here because, in spite of the evidence of numerous German documents as well as eyewitness testimonies, the involvement of the Ukrainian police in the destruction process is often passed over in silence or denied in Ukrainian circles. At the Conference on Jewish-Ukrainian Relations in Historical Perspective (McMaster University, 1983) a man who claimed to have served as a Ukrainian policeman under the Nazi occupation challenged statements made by Aharon Weiss and denied that the Ukrainian police took part in anti-Jewish actions. When, as co-editor for history of Encyclopedia of Ukraine, I added a sentence about participation in the murder of Jews to the article on "Ukrainian Auxiliary Police," the sentence was stricken from the final version

Jo0doe (talk) 07:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know this article was about Jews.Faustian (talk) 03:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
So we spoke why - despite the numerous of liens there still not exist a lot of articles similar to Polnisches Schutzmannschaftsbataillon 202

and why info about the western Ukrainian collaborationist police hardly to find at the "top western historians" from Ukrainian DiasporaJo0doe (talk) 07:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you write such an article rather than bring in irrelevent information to this one's talk pages? As for top western historians - the info about Ukrainian collaborationist police is found in Himka, isn't it?Faustian (talk) 13:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Directly relevant. It's my practice - I put info which not exist at article at talk page first - so the other editors can incorporte it into. If they want not or distort it (as with UPA case) - I wait and do it by myself. So did you point hardly to find and western Ukrainian collaborationist police ? So any other name - may be at Subtelnyy and Masoci? How fair ? Or they just put Soviet POW first and silence about free-will OUN(B) members?Jo0doe (talk) 16:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Could you please clarify what you are trying to say?Faustian (talk) 17:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Polite wording - "misleading statements"

So here [17] is intresting statement and comments on it [18] - so as a follow up here a further [19] Jo0doe (talk) 09:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

This is off-topic and belongs in the discussion page of the article Lviv Civilian Massacre (1941).Faustian (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
This is directly related to the relibility of mentioned source Jo0doe (talk) 18:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The SBU?Faustian (talk) 19:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Jo, You neglected to give a reference to the Ukrainian State Security Department. Here are copies of the original letters in English and the documents they received. [[here]] or this here Bandurist (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

You mean Berliner Berzenazeitung? So I prefer to avoid of such sources usage - I'm spoken about радник Голови СБ України з науково-дослідної роботи, співробітник Українського інституту національної пам’яті and institution at LembergJo0doe (talk) 09:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Numbers

139590 persons (Osadnik as of from pre September 1, 1939 Polish territories (West Ukraine and West Belarus) as of April 1940 were relocated. As of August 1941 109233 of them were Poles .

In 1941 also were deported 88097 persons from all newly acquired territories (Baltic countries, Besarabia, West Ukraine and Belarus. Source - Ivan Bilas. Repressive-punishment system in Ukraine. 1917-1953 Vol.2 Kyiv Lybid-Viysko Ukrainy, 1994 ISBN 5-325-00599-5 from State Archive of Russian Federation

As of 1939 there were 327,9 thousands Catholics (presumably all Poles) at Volhynia voyevodstvo. As of September 1 , 1944 there were 41,8 thousands Poles at Volinia region and ~50 thousands in Rivne region (both – major part of pre 1939 Volhynia voyevodstvo) Source – Stepan Makarchuk - “Volhynia population losses in 1941-47” p 201-203 at Independent Cultural Weekly. #28 Lviv 2003

Mobilized to Soviet&Polish Armies as of 23 September 1944 from Rivne region – 98 693 Ukrainians and 5262 Poles from Volhynia region 79 472 Ukrainians and 3067 Poles, from Ternopilska region – 105 761 Ukrainians and 30 072 Poles. Source – p.305 from Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army Kyiv 2004.

So may be better to fix “millions of deported in 1939-41” as there 1.173.170 trudposelentsy at GULAG (including 137K osadniki and 77 K refugees) total by end of 1941Jo0doe (talk) 09:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian victims

According to Polish sources UPA killed thousands of Ukrainians, many of them before the massacres of Poles started. Xx236 (talk) 10:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's not the point of the article

{{{ BoxingWear - BWear - Miranda }}} (talk) 21:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC) This Wikipedia should cover all problems proportionally, not selected ones. Xx236 (talk) 09:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


Polish historiography

I softend the language in the article in three places: 1) Polish historiography is not univcoal, the 'tendencies' are covered in the link provided. 2) The word 'only' in terms of when UPA was formed sounds defensive. The second half of the sentence make the point on its own. 3) I moved the word 'most' to reflect the uncertainty more accurately.

I did not intend to alter in principle the content in these passages. 79.173.3.223 (talk) 13:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:QS and SPS

Look like group of editors attempt to use a WP as a whitewashing vehicle for murderers by the inserting a Fringe theory adopted by tiny community which reflect mass extermination of children women and elders simply because they Poles as a reaction to the “despite the fact that the vast majority of the population of Volyn was Ukrainian (see the table), practically all government and administrative positions, including the police, were assigned to ethnic Poles”. While notable extensive usage of WP:QS and WP:SPS published at Lwow– namely Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 92, Сивицький, М. Записки сірого волиняка Львів 1996 с.184. Despite the fact of availability of joint Polish-Ukrainian historians conclusion and plenty of historically sealed materials.Jo0doe (talk) 06:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Bandurist and others - why fight this battle? Wikipedia won't allow anything that mainstream historians ignore. What about the massacres of Ukrainians in Zakerzonnia? Who massacred the people in Zavadka Morokhivska, where the bodies of men, women and children (civilians) lie in mass graves on its church site- aliens? There are bodies in the ground, but the Polish government is not held accountable, nor the Soviets. Such things are titled "reprisals" (to the violence in Volhynia) by scholars like Snyder in "Bloodlands" and no further information is provided. That's the problem with historical perspectives - it's not necessarily making things up (Ukrainians cannot plausibly contend that nothing happened in Volhynia just because no official documents were found) - the problem is that only half truths are recounted. The narrative of the victors or those who have international advocacy tends to take the main stage. Wikipedia is just a watered down, distorted offshoot of that. If the scholars can't be comprehensive, how can that be expected from Wikiipedia editors? 68.186.207.156 (talk) 10:06, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

  1. ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the seconf world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 77
  2. ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 79
  3. ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 85
  4. ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 90 (from Krakowski visti #29, 17 April, 1940 p. 4)
  5. ^ Дзюбан, О. Українсько-польське протистояння у вересні 1939 року у тогочасній пресі та споинах очевидців / Українсько-польський конфліцт під час Другої світової війни. Львів, 2003(In Ukrainian) Dziuban, O. Ukrainian-Polish insurgence in October 1939 in contemporary press and witness memoirs / Ukrainian-Polish conflict during the second world war. Lviv, 2003 p. 91