Talk:Memphis, Tennessee/Archive 1

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Older comments

I changed the climate section to reflect the more insane nature of the weather in Memphis, which I believe every person who wants to move or visit should know about before hand. Also removed the description of the climate as humid subtropical, which is a myth spread by 1980s social studies books, and misleading to gardners. I know it's damn hot most of the year, but those sneaky winters are enough to prevent it from being subtropical, as is evident in the natural vegetation of the area, which is strictly temperate deciduous. Officially, a subtropical climate cannot freeze regularly.

I removed:

Burke's Book Store - Found at 1719 Poplar and Evergreen, this dog friendly, cozy store is staffed by a small, yet knowledgeable group of people. If you can’t find what you are looking for, someone would be happy to order it for you or redirect you to a better source. But, it is hard to leave empty handed with the store’s quirky selection of comics to civil war biographies.
The Wall of Graffiti at the Wild Things/Inz and Outz - 553 South Cooper St. The two stores are a gay/lesbian/straight friendly store and a neo-hippie paraphernalia store respectively. But, it is the wall along the parking lot that always provides plenty of aesthetic stimulation. One of the few places in Memphis to find vibrant graffiti, it never stagnates. Fresh images are added often.

Because it does not adhere to a NPOV. I don't think a listing of interesting places to visit in Memphis is a bad thing, but this is not the way to do it. It should be explained why these places are listed (i.e. biggest book store in Memphis, oldest whatever in the area, etc). This reads like advertising and shouldn't be here. Tuf-Kat 06:44, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

True, perhaps it should be put under Tourism. It does seem like advertising, yet huge cities such as New York advertise sites that run the gamut from stores to museums to parks. Just 'cause it has the same status as F.A.O. Shwartz doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned if it is relevant to the city. I must mention that I just discovered this site yesterday, so am still learning protocol. - Unifex

No problem, as it's not a big mistake. The issue is simply that this is one person's opinion and could be totally idiosyncratic. For example, I may believe that Burke's
  • Employs large numbers of people
  • The aforementioned people are not knowledgeable
  • And are rude and unhelpful as well
  • It's easy to leave the store without buying anything
  • Because they have a limited selection
Neither your opinion nor my hypothetical one are verifiable. It can't even be proven that you really feel this way (you could be working for these companies). In any case, opinions like this need to be attributed to the people who believe them, and who must themselves be notable in some way (i.e. probably not you and definitely not I). Perhaps the Memphis Chamber of Commerce or tourism board maintains a list of interesting sites to visit, for example, or maybe a couple places are mentioned in most travel guides, or appeared on Insomniac with Dave Attell or something. These would be valid inclusions, but your (or my) opinions on the subject are not noteworthy or encyclopedic. Tuf-Kat 07:00, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

The Arts

I removed Isaac Hayes as he was mentioned twice in the same paragraph. Kenrus

==I deleted "Wiliiam Faulkner wrote most of his literary works in Oxford, Mississippi. Alex Haley, author of Autobiography of Malcolm X and Roots was from Henning, Tennessee." While of interest in other articles, these statements do not pertain to Memphis.--Boodro 13:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Shelby Farms

Why is there nothing mentioned about this massive park and the dont split shelby farms movement. I think we need some sort of statement about that park and/or a whole new article on the park. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barcode (talk • contribs) .

  • I agree, there certainly needs to be something on Wikipedia about Shelby Farms. Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I think it must be extremely rare for a large city to have a such a massive greenspace within its borders. I would be fine with either an article devoted exclusively to Shelby Farms, an explanation of what it is in this article, or both. - Jersyko talk 23:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Shelby Farms is actually (IIRC) the second largest urban park in the US, after Central Park in NYC... I figure that warrants a mention in the Wikipedia page.Kevinlipe 07:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
the article has been done. however it is the largest urban park. central park in NYC is 843 acres where as Shelby farms is around 4,500 acres. you can find the article at Shelby Farms, in fact on their website it says " At approximately 4500 acres it is five times larger than New York City's famed Central Park". Barcode 15:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Shelby Farms is not within the borders of Memphis, and I have a little trouble considering it an urban park; it's certainly not an urban park in the same sense that Central Park in New York and the lakefront parks in Chicago are. In fact, it's just outside the Memphis ring-road; I would call it a suburban park. I think it would be more accurate to state that it's located just outside the eastern edge of the city. No, I just got a city map; it's almost inside the city, in that there's part of the city to the east of it (see the map of Memphis at the Shelby County site.) However, it's not a Memphis park, it's a Shelby County park. (You can easily verify that by looking up Memphis parks and Shelby County parks; it's clearly county.) This relates to the sprawl that is Memphis. When I moved there in 1954, the Parkways were the city boundary to all intents and purposes (midtown is just inside that boundary). When I left in the early 1970's, I don't think 240 had been built, but where it now is would have been mostly rural but also suburban. Today, most of Memphis is much like the suburbs of New Jersey - just one neighborhood after another of commuters and shopping malls. Ngriffeth 17:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

  • No, sorry, but Shelby Farms is indeed inside the borders of Memphis and it is governed by the Memphis City government. The map at the Shelby county site is slightly unclear, however I assure you that this is in fact the case. Find a better map, would be my advice. Whether you consider it "urban" or not is a judgment call, but rest quite assured that Shelby Farms is inside the borders of the city of Memphis. The city of Memphis and Shelby county do, however, share funding for maintaining the park. I'll grant you that. Otto42 22:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree that it's inside in the sense that there are borders of Memphis most of the way around it; however, I don't believe that it's actually in Memphis, but I could be wrong. My belief is based on the fact that Memphis doesn't list it as a city park, while Shelby County lists it as a county park, on their respective Web pages. Anyway, it's easy enough to establish whether it's urban; the Census Bureau defines urban as areas having more than 1000 people per square mile, and since Shelby Farms is just north of Germantown, the density of Germantown would serve nicely to estimate the population density around Shelby Farms. If you don't think that's good enough, we could probably also check the densities of surrounding zip codes. Also, to call it the largest urban park just because it's bigger than Central Park, well... there are lots of big parks in cities less densely populated than NYC, parks that may themselves claim to be the largest urban park. Are you sure Shelby Farms is larger than any of those? Ngriffeth 16:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Just looked at Philadelphia parks on a hunch, Fairmount Park in Philadelphia claims 9200 acres. Ngriffeth 16:49, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Fine. You want proof? Here's an official site with high resolution maps from the Tennessee DOT: http://www.tdot.state.tn.us/Maps/city/#L-M . You will note on the "Memphis SE" map that the area of Shelby Farms has, in big letters, "Memphis" labeled on top of it. The city boundary is marked by a dashed line (refer to the map key at the bottom for an example) and it comes up and follows the Wolf River on the south side, swings around to head North at Germantown Parkway, cuts off westward onto Meadow Lane Drive, where it meanders a bit in that neighborhood to enclose the Evangelical Christian school before it meets up with the rail line that is on the North side of Shelby Farms, thus enclosing the entirity of Shelby Farms firmly *within* the Memphis City Borders. The map has a date on it of 2002, comes from as official a source as you can get, is high resolution and extremely detailed, and should put rest any argument about this rather silly topic. Shelby Farms is absolutely inside Memphis. Period. As for population density, I do not know, you may be correct. I'll investigate it later.Otto42 20:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
      • While I do still not have figures on population density, I do have this source: http://www.sfparkalliance.org/about/ which states: "Shelby Farms Park, at 4,500 acres, is the largest urban park in the U.S. that is encompassed within a major urban area."
      • Thanks, you're quite right. It is inside the Memphis border. I'm still confused about it being a county park. Please understand, I would be delighted for Shelby Farms to be the largest urban park in America; I enjoy visiting it when I'm in Memphis. The only problem is, there are lots of other urban parks; have you checked the wikipedia pages on urban parks? There's South Mountain Park in Phoenix (16,000 acres), Mission Trails Regional Park in San Diego (5800 acre), Forest Park in Portland (over 5,000 acres). There's also Mill Creek Park in Youngstown, Ohio, 2600 acres, which claims (in Wikipedia) to be "the second largest park in the US after Fairmount Park in Philadelphia." The latter claims to be 9200 acres. So Central Park is not the standard for large urban parks at all. This is all quite fascinating - thanks for getting me going - it suggests that work is needed on the urban parks articles in the Wikipedia. And I really don't think you should neglect Overton Park, which is not included in the Wikipedia, but is also a fascinating park. Ngriffeth 22:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
        • This is really just nit-picking over what the claim actually is. The Shelby Farms Alliance claim is very clear, with the main claim being "largest urban park in the U.S. that is encompassed within a major urban area". So, let's look:
        • Fairmont Park in Philadelphia is just an all-encompassing name for what is, in fact, 65 separate parks.
        • South Mountain Park in Phoenix is not entirely within the Phoenix City Limits.
        • Forest Park in Portland has the same problem, it's not entirely within Portland.
        • Mission Trails Regional Park in San Diego, I have little information on. It may or may not be entirely encompassed within the city limits.
        • Anyway, all this is still rather silly, IMO. It might be an interesting subject for a Wikipedia page of it's own, although some people might think it to be original research or listcruft. I would disagree, but still, it's not a claim that should be made on the Memphis page, except to say that Shelby Farms, is, in fact, entirely located within Memphis. Otto42 15:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Memphis does have a large urban park, Overton Park, which is 342 acres. Only 40% as big as Central Park, but definitely urban. Ngriffeth 18:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

    • Did anyone ever notice that the article reads (and always read) that "Shelby Farms is one of the largest urban parks in the United States."[emphasis added]? I did that on purpose to avoid controversy about who has the largest urban park. doxTxob \ talk 00:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

sections/suburbs

I think we need to reorginize this. Do we want to name each and every individidual neighborhood in this area: example: Victorian village which is debatably midtown/downtown and *The Village, East Memphis[1] which is part of East Memphis.

I think we should stick to massive neighboorhoods that people refer to that part of town as. For example: even though Cordova has Countrywood, Berryhill, and several other subdivisions, many people still refer to it as Cordova. ditto for Whitehaven. same with Downtown memphis, midtown, Orange Mound etc. You can still make an article on the neighboorhoods but i think their should be a heirarchy of the links. We can put East Memphis on the memphis page, and when you get on the East Memphis Article there can be another list of the neighborhood encompassing East Memphis. same can go for Cordova, Germantown and whatever. I think this will clean that section of the Memphis article up a little bitBarcode 15:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The sections do need a lot of cleanup ;) IMHO Orange_Mound,_Memphis is the only decently written article. mrh 04:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd recomend striking the suburbs section from this article entirely. The MSA link includes the full list of suburbs, while there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why this particular subset of the suburbs have direct links here. (Some of the suburbs touching Memphis are included, others are not; some are inside Shelby County, others are not; some of those listed are larger suburbs while others are quite small, etc.) 168.166.196.40 13:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

At least as of the last time I was in that area (1996) there was quite a dispute on what exactly is the western border of East Memphis which may make listing by subdivision problemic. Germantown though is it's own city and so it's details wouldn't belong in this article. Jon 18:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Memphis Riots not mentioned

Shortly after the Civil War there was a major race riot in Memphis. I will research it a bit and try to update the article.

There was also a large riot where KKK members marched on MLK's birthday (or assaination?). Also on a somewhat related note is the mention of Forester (KKK founder) and problems with giving respect to a brilliant Civil War general but who created the fraternity which would turn into one of the largest hate groups in American history. But I dont know how worthy that is to mention.

  • Yeah. The riot you're talking about wasn't really big. Just a few broken store windows, broken up by mounted police downtown. There was a large riot (rightly so, I suppose) when MLK, Jr. was assassinated, and also violence associated with the sanitation strike on behalf of which he came to Memphis to speak.

Talking about the issues with Nathan Bedford Forrest (I assume that's who you're talking about) isn't very objective, is it? I mean, maybe there could be a brief mention that the city has many parks controversially named after Confederate generals, etc., but commenting on whether or not it's appropriate is, IMO, a massive breach of NPOV. Kevinlipe 07:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually during the 1866 riot over 30 people were pronounced dead and 50 were wounded, that is certainly worth mentioning in this article! [2] 74.128.200.135 02:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it really is not. If you want to mention the riot as a section about the history of the city, then that's fine, but specific facts and details of the riot would deserve their own article. This is an encylopedia article about the city, not a complete historical reference. If you want to talk about that riot, give it an article to itself and link there from here. Otto42 19:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)



Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was in Memphis when he got assassinated...it was down town Memphis in a hotel..by the name of i have no clue but it is now the Civil Rights Museum!I.L.O.V.E.D.R.M.A.R.T.I.N.L.U.T.H.E.R.K.I.N.G.J.R. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.125.74.4 (talk) 17:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's called the Lorraine Motel and it's already linked to in the article. -- Otto 20:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Corrupt Mayor

What is this about the mayor being the most corrupt in America? Doesn't sound like a statement rooted in fact, more like an opinion...Should that be taken out? [unknown anom editor]

Almost certaintely doesn't belong here. Jon 18:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was in Memphis when he got assassinated...it was down town Memphis in a hotel..by the name of i have no clue but it is now the Civil Rights Museum!I.L.O.V.E.D.R.M.A.R.T.I.N.L.U.T.H.E.R.K.I.N.G.J.R.

Nicknames, image sizes, and so on.

The nickname section of city infoboxes is usually reserved for the more recognized nicknames of that city, so I removed a handful of the more obscure or less common ones. Many, many cities are referred to by their residents by the city's first initial or the first part of it's name followed by -town (Take 'nap-town' for Annapolis, MD for an amusing example,) and frequently by their area codes as well. There's no need to add every single nickname used for a given city - I think two is enough. New York City only has its primary nick, "The Big Apple" listed, even though it has several others. -- Vary | Talk 23:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Jersyko for removing the unfree maps and resizing some of the bigger images. Chris2008 , I'd appreciate if you'd please discuss the disputed changes here with us so we can come to a consensus about what's the best format to use. I'm leaving the nicknames in for the time being to avoid an edit war, but it seems to me they really do not belong in the infobox. The infobox is a kind of quick reference for facts on the city, and an alternate name that a non-resident is unlikely to ever encounter is not useful there. Please do reply and let us know why you think the larger images and inclusion of the added nicks are important. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 05:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

  • In order to build consensus, I would like to second all of Vary's comments regarding nicknames and images. - Jersyko talk 21:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, most of the nicknames in question do not really belong in the infobox as nicknames. Some city articles have referred to the airport code, the area code, and a few other abbreviations as colloquialisms, usually referred to in the introductory paragraph (see Albuquerque, New Mexico or Richmond, Virginia as examples). But I think it's best to keep the nicknames list in the infobox pretty simple. Dr. Cash 23:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Nicknames

Memphis nickname is not star of the southwest or whatever else is on there. The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chris2008 (talk • contribs) .

  • You're right. I apologize for reverting your change in its entirety, I will try to pay more attention next time. However, I have removed some of the nicknames you have added, per the comments in the above section of this talk page. - Jersyko talk 04:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

I would like to add pictures of the hernando desoto bridge and a skyline picute. When you first go to the page it should be a picture of the skyline of memphis, tennessee like every other major city has a picture of there skyline. There shouldn't be a picture of Beale St. when you first go to the page. It should go under Other Points of Interest. user:chris2008

  • While the pictures of the bridge is admittedly nice, it and all other pictures taken from this website are not distributed under a free license. In fact, the website says "Downloads by others than the media or tour operators, if not permitted in writing by Tennessee Tourism, are illegal." Tennessee Tourism, despite the deceptive title of the page, is a private company, not a state department of Tennessee. Thus, use of the pictures, and any others from this website, on Wikipedia is copyright infringement (of course we still have a fair use claim . . . but better not to use that if we can avoid it). I do agree, however, that the Memphis skyline would be a better picture for the infobox, provided that a free license picture can be found. - Jersyko talk 23:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I did not get the picture of the new bridge during the day from that website so we still should beable to see that one. user:chris2008

Ive got some better pictures of the bridges that I took. I'll replace the two that are currently there in a few days. Barcode 16:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

There are many good pictures at http://www.memphiswallpaper.com/ . I know the owner of this site (and taker of those pictures), and am totally confident that he would give permission for anybody to use them for any reason whatsoever. He can be contacted on his website at paulryburn.com.

Saks picture

This article generally needs a LOT of cleanup work. While I think it is appropriate to mention David Saks in this article, this should not be done in the introductory paragraph (along with the massive list of musicians), but later in the article. That being the case, there *certainly* doesn't need to be a low-quality (as in, blurry, poorly white balanced, low resolution) picture in the intro. I will not remove the picture for now, as doing so would be in violation of the three revert rule, but I think it might be a good idea to do so . . . - Jersyko talk 03:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I've done a little research on David Saks. This is his homepage. There is at least some corroboration that he wrote one of the "official songs of Memphis" (of which there appear to be several). There is not, however, much evidence of Mr. Saks' involvement in the Memphis community to such an extent that he warrants a mention in the intro to the article. I will not go further in my suggestions in this regard, but merely present the evidence for the perusal of others. - Jersyko talk 04:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm inclined to think we don't need a pic of Saks in this article at all. He's only mentioned breifly, and there aren't pictures of any of the other artists mentioned in the article. A picture of him would belong in his own article.
I agree on the intro; it's way too long, and most of the info on local artists can probably go under 'culture' or under a seperate heading (say, 'Local Artists'?) All we really need is the first paragraph, as is, and maybe a second one referencing the city's musical heritage?
Also, while the new picture in the citybox is an inprovement over the Beale Street one, I think the one that was in there up until mid-January or so is better. I'm not sure why it was moved, (it's now under 'Geography and Climate') but swaping it with the one that's in the citybox now might be a good idea. The code specifically requests a skyline, and the current image doesn't quite fit that description. Some of the other images in the article could use some adjusting, too. -- Vary | Talk 06:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
On the subject of cleanup, I think the next thing that should be tackled is the list of sections and suburbs. Should that maybe be broght in line with the style used in the state boxes, as at the bottom of the article? Putting the list on a few lines, rather than giving each item its own line, would go a long way towards making the article look neater. It can also probably go nearer to the bottom, I would think. -- 06:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not at all sure about my placement of the list of entertainers from the intro, but I know it didn't belong where it was. I hope someone else can think of a better place to put it. -- Vary | Talk 06:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed the picture because: 1) he is mentioned only briefly in the article, 2) he is not noteworthy enough (most people do not think of him when you mention "memphis"), and 3) considering all the important people in Memphis' history, such as Elvis and Martin Luther King, Jr., and considering their pictures are not in the article, then it is difficult to justify Saks' picture. If there is a Saks article, then that is where the picture would belong. - Dozenist talk 13:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. If we're going to have a picture of an artist, it should be someone along the lines of Elvis, Arethra Franklin, Jonny Cash, or B.B. King. -- Vary | Talk 17:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be great toupdate skyline picture

Official Song

I can't find any reference to 'In Memphis' being an official song of the city, just 'One Last Bridge'. I'm going to go ahead and remove the other song pending confirmation of its status. If this was an 'Official Resolution' you'd think there would be some record of it somewhere. Mr. Saks's own web page doesn't even mention either song, at least as far as I can tell. If we don't get better confirmation of the status of "One Last Bridge" then the myspace account of a nn band, I'd say we should take that one out, too. -- Vary | Talk 17:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I did find the reference on his web site, claiming both songs as Official Songs, but I had to use google to find it - the site is a mess. "In Memphis" is too common a phrase for a google test to yield accurate results, but a search for 'Saks "One Last Bridge"' gets two hits, the aforementioned page on Saks's web site, and this article. Not a good sign for notability. -- Vary | Talk 18:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
As there has still been no evidence presented that "In Memphis" was ever even recorded, I've re-removed that song, and added the name of the artist who performed "One Last Bridge." If anyone can verify that "In Memphis" is in fact a co-official song of Memphis, please do put it back in. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 02:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


There most certainly is evidence of David Saks and his song "One Last Bridge" in The Commercial Appeal. You appear to be too hasty in removing Mr. Saks's name from the song "One Last Bridge". What a pity! Please see the following as proof: [3]

No one has attempted to 'remove Mr. Saks's name from the song.' I've removed the text of the article you cited and replaced it with a web link, (which I'd like to add was not easy to find even when I knew where to look!) as the text is copyrighted and can't be reproduced here. It looks better on the web site, anyway. In future, please provide links rather than pasting content into wikipedia. Thanks.
I have to note that the article refers to One Last Bridge not simply as Memphis's official song, but as its "official song of 1990." As such, I'm not sure it even belongs in the article. What about the official songs of 1991-2006? , For the time being, though, I'm just going to update the article to include this new information. -- Vary | Talk 07:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I vote to remove the Song of 1990 stuff... or make another article that states Offical songs of memphis. --Barcode 16:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

If you vote to remove "the song of 1990 stuff" then surely you'll vote to remove the information regarding New orleans and the Voodoo Music experience from annual events in Memphis as this was a one time event. No one knows if it will be annual as is stated in the article. So as you can see, this is not completely accurate being listed under Annual Events..... - The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs) .

You're quite right, at least in regard to the "annual" status of Voodoo in Memphis. Fixed, in that regard. I disagree, however, that it doesn't warrant a mention in this article, as the location of the event for 2005 received a decent amount of media coverage, quite a bit here in Memphis, and was attended by thousands of people. The New Orleans Saints, for example, are mentioned in the New York Giants article for a similar reason. - Jersyko talk 20:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

yes. but somewhere it needs to be noted that the Voodoo whatever music thing happened in memphis this year. perhaps in another article The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barcode (talk • contribs) .

You're correct. The Voodoo music thing should be mentioned in a New Orleans article and not Memphis since it surely belongs to and in New Orleans. - The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.70.152.126 (talk • contribs) .
"...it surely belongs to and in new orleans"? That sounds like a statement arguing an opinion. And all of us here, I am sure, value highly the issue of NPOV. Though the Voodoo fest was originally in New Orleans, the historic event of having it take place (partly) in Memphis with thousands of people attending is a good reason to have it mentioned in this article. At least for now. Perhaps I can be persuaded years from now when having a Voodoo fest in Memphis is a "blip" on the radar. Perhaps. Then again, we digress. The entire list of official songs of Memphis for every year is not something that should be listed in this article. A separate article could be created for such an endeavor, considering how easy it has been to track down this information. - Dozenist talk 00:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I stand by my previous comment. The Voodoo Fest belongs in an article on New Orleans. The only reason that it was an "historic event" in Memphis was due sadly to Katrina and so many of the New Orleans musicians had been displaced by Katrina to Memphis. While it was inspiring that it attracted many people, Voodoo Fest only attracted thousands of people in Memphis because of the dire situation in New Orleans. The sooner that New Orleans can return to normal and claim all of Vooddoo Fest, the better. Memphis does not need to claim it too. Thoughts of Voodoo and Memphis? I think not! Official songs of Memphis written and composed by local musicians should be on the Memphis page. The information was not so difficult to track if you looked properly in "The Commerical Appeal". The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs) .

I disagree. Someone researching Memphis today would be interested to learn how the city supported the people of New Orleans by hosting an even that is an important tradition for the city's residents when Katrina made holding the event in New Orleans impossible. Fifteen years from now the information might no longer be relevant, but that's the beauty of a wiki - old, outdated information can easily be removed by anyone.
I agree with Dozenist that, if a more complete list of the annually selected Official Songs of Memphis can be compiled, a separate article might be appropriate. Does anyone know what the current year's official song is, or if the honor is even still awarded annually? -- Vary | Talk 03:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
There doesn't appear to be any other mention of an "official song" of Memphis in the Commercial Appeal's archives, nor in the Memphis Flyer's (the city's only other somewhat widely read daily besides the Memphis Business Journal). In looking at the city council's actions for 2004 and 2005, I don't see anything about other adopted official songs. I suppose the only way to compile a list would be to trek to city hall and ask to look at the relevant records. - Jersyko talk 03:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone considered that Mr. Saks's song is the only Official Song of Memphis? "One Last Bridge" was proclaimed the Official Song in 1990 and deserves to be mentioned on the Memphis site. It is as relevant as Tallest Buildings. It doesn't make much sense that the Memphis City Council would proclaim an official song every year.

Regarding someone researching Memphis and learning that the city supported New Orleans with a Voodoo Fest, I don't think it would be of much interest as Voodoo Fest is too new to be considered a "tradition" even by the New Orleans natives. If Memphis were to host Jazz Fest or Mardi Gras, true New Orleans traditions, this would be noteworthy. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs) .

Please sign your posts. You can do so with ~~~~. Regarding whether there is only one official song, well, the article in the commercial appeal makes it clear that it is only the official song of 1990. Thus, it stands to reason that there's at least a good chance that there are others, for other years. Additionally, the editor who originally added the information on Mr. Saks to the article also mentioned another song, titled "In Memphis," as an "official song of Memphis" (though this was not able to be confirmed through online research). There seems to be a decent amount of evidence that there is more than one song, but we certainly can't conclude one way or the other without looking at what the city council has done. - Jersyko talk 04:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh! Now we are getting somewhere. Mr. Saks had two songs proclaimed songs of the year by the Memphis City Council in 1990. How many other Memphis composers can claim this honor? Not many! He is the composer of "In Memphis" as well as "One Last Bridge". This is even more of a reason that he deserve to be on the Memphis page...--70.248.228.85 13:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out, however, this claim as to the second song was completely unverified, except on his homepage. It seems that you're arguing two different things at the same time: (1) "One Last Bridge" is the only official song of Memphis, and (2) there are multiple songs, two of which have been written by Mr. Saks, thus they should be mentioned in this article. These arguments are, of course, mutually exclusive. The safest course to take at this point is to not draw any premature conclusions 'as to the number of songs but to do further research with the city council to figure out exactly what the city's official songs are. If my schedule permits it, I will swing by city hall in the next couple weeks or so and see what I can find. - Jersyko talk 14:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That would be a great idea. Because so far, there is very little reason to have him mentioned on the Memphis page as it is. I have been asking everyone I know that have lived here for a long time, none of which know this guy. If instead he is only really known in smaller circles in the Memphis music scene, then that is not enough of a reason to have his name in the article about Memphis. Tell me if I can help with going to the City Council, Jersyko. - Dozenist talk 16:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Memphis is a large city and asking everyone "you know" may not be the right people to ask. Mr. Saks was born in Memphis and has lived there all of his life. Checking with the Mempis City Council is a terrific idea. Once you verify that Mr. Saks is the recipient of two awards from the Memphis City Council for two songs of the year, then his name should remain on this site. He represents the city more than a mention of Voodoo Fest. Why not mention a Stones concert, they attracted thousands to Memphis as well.--70.248.228.85 16:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

You're mentioning him on the page because Memphis has "Official Songs of the Year" and he is the composer of these songs. In this case, it makes no difference who is familiar with Mr. Saks. This information is as interesting as any of the other categories that are listed under Memphis.--70.248.228.85 17:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The Voodoo Music Experience is unquestionably notable and belongs in the Memphis article. The search string '"voodoo music experience" Memphis' yields 23,000 results. [4] The search string '"david saks" memphis' yields 358. [5] While an in-depth discussion of the event and its history would not belong on this page, the brief mention we have there now is appropriate.
He has had two songs - one verifiable and one unverifiable - that were made official songs of the year in Memphis. There has so far only been one source cited that would be considered authoritative under Wikipedia:Citing sources is from a small local paper, Commercial Appeal, and it is not an announcement of the award, but discusses the author and producer's disappointment that the song was not used in an advertising campaign for the city. [6] I will wait to see the outcome of the AFD for the Saks page, to see if he is determined to be notable under WP:MUSIC, but if not, I would say that the reference should come out of the article. Again, if someone is able and willing to do the research to find out the rest of the songs that have been awarded this honor, and if it is an award that was given for a reasonable number of years, it might be appropriate to create a separate article listing these songs. This would be an ideal project for a Memphis resident with knowledge of the local music scene.
Again, it's not a good sign for notability when you can find only one reputable reference from a relatively minor publication. If Mr. Saks and his work are as well known in Memphis as the user who's advocating for keeping his article feels, it should be easy to provide links to more articles in commercial appeal and other local publications citing his notability as a musician and composer. (I repeat, links, please, as I'm not going to go digging out the link on my own again, and any copyrighted material that is pasted onto this or any other page will have to be removed per WP:Copyrights.) If any of this is unclear, please see the notability requirements linked to above. -- Vary | Talk 20:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

How many "hits" have the other categories, Tallest Buildings for example received? I'm sure they've not received the 23,0000 that you cite for "Voodoo Memphis nor the 348 that Mr. Saks has received. "Commercial Appeal", small, local newpaper? It is the oldest and only major newspaper in Memphis. It does not matter that Mr. Saks's work is not well known in Memphis. What is notable is that his two songs "One Last Bridge" and "In Memphis" were cited by the Memphis City Council as Official Songs of Memphis. Most people are not familiar with the composers of songs. Official Songs of Memphis and Mr. Saks listed as the composer is as relevant and notable in the Memphis article as some of the other categories. I stand by my --207.70.152.126 22:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)earlier statement that "Voodoo Experience" ranks up there with a Stones concert and is not pertinent to Memphis. The Stones site receives more than 23,000 hits and though they performed to thousands of people their concert is not listed on the Memphis site. Mr. Saks is a Memphian, the majority of the performers at the "Voodoo Fest" are from other cities.

Thankfully, we have more than just one person working on this article to try to get this straightened out. As it stands, we are now agreeing on things that would make Saks not notable for the Memphis article. For example, 1) "Most people are not familiar with the composers of songs", 2) "Mr. Saks's work is not well known in Memphis", and 3) There is not much sign of widespread acclaim of Mr. Saks as evident by the google search. The most important aspect of Mr. Saks is that he is the composer of one song that was the official song of Memphis in 1990 (The only thing verified so far, if I am up to date with the discussion). That being the case, it is still only noteworthy if it is the only song (or one of a very few) that is Memphis' official song. If there are many songs, then "One Last Bridge" is not as noteworthy. Thankfully, we have access to city hall, and we will be able to gather that information soon. Concerning everything else mentioned here, not only do most people in Memphis recognize the names of Voodoo Fest and Clark Tower, the majority of them would also say those things are important to Memphis--- more important than one of many Stones concerts occuring in any number of cities. Any argument otherwise stands against the majority of views here. - Dozenist talk 14:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


The majority of viewers here did not know where to find Mr. Saks's name mentioned in the Commercial Appeal. It had to be shown to them. Many Memphians recognize the name "Mr. Bingle", which is also important to many Memphians, but I don't see him mentioned. Like a Stones concert, "Voodoo Fest" is also being held in "any number of cities", New Orleans. It does still count as a city, doesn't it? I stand by my previous comments--70.248.228.85 16:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Another article has been located in the archives of The Commercial Appeal, dated November 26, 1992, by Peggy McKenzie. This article is titled "Passion is Stamped In Collector's Hobby". In addition ti stamp collecting, the article states that Mr. Saks is the recipient from the Memphis City Council for two of his songs, one in 1990 and one in 1991. After further research, the two songs in question, "One Last Bridge" was named the Official Song on May 22, 1990 and the other song, "In Memphis" received this prestigious award on May 24, 1991. After checking with , Assistant City Administrator, for the Memphis City Council, no other songs have received this award in the fourteen years that she has been working for the City of Memphis.--70.248.228.85 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)--70.248.228.85 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That's useful information, thanks for providing it. Did you happen to ask about pre-1990 songs? - Jersyko talk 00:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd appreciate a link to the article, please. For info on adding links to Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:How to edit a page. Thanks -- Vary | Talk 00:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. stated that she has been working for the City of Memphis since 1992, and was not aware that the City Council had named official songs in the fourteen years that she has held in this position. I'm awaiting a response for pre-1990. I'll try to send you the link for the above article. --70.248.228.85 01:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC) [http://www.commercialappeal.com/--70.248.228.85 02:34, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

We're still waiting for that source. Unsourced information in an article may be challenged and removed. Additionally, Wikipedia:Notability (songs) seems to provide some guidance here. Thus, the source must, at the very least, prove the content of the information asserted, but it should also prove the notability of the information asserted. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 17:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised this stayed in the article as long as it did; I thought it had been removed. Even if this were credibly sourced, it wouldn't be notable enough for inclusion. And the personal attacks from the anon who wants the reference in are not helping the song's case. -- Vary | Talk 20:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


Should we request for protection, we seem to have a small edit war going on right now with a rotating IP address. Barcode 21:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably not a bad idea. Don't forget that the IPs are User:Reneec, and that Reneec has an indef block right now, so any edits by the IPs are a violation of WP:SOCK. Basically, it's not a bad idea to revert any edits by the IPs immediately no matter where they are made. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

The listing of neighborhoods is seriously messed up! North Memphis and Raliegh are two separate neighborhoods, with Raliegh lying several miles to the east of North Memphis. Cordova is not anywhere near "southeast Memphis." Cordova is, in fact, the furthest east section of Memphis, lying neither north nor south of town, but instead along Germantown Parkway between the town of Germantown and US-64. Southeast Memphis is called Hickory Hill and is the area served by TN-385 (Nonconnah/Bill Morris Parkway). I don't really know the computer language necessary to edit the page, so if somebody could do this for me, I'd appreciate it.

Photo of St Judes

The photo of St Judes on this page is being claimed fair use. However the justification on the fair use tag being used states that the image is only fair use "in the absence of free images that could serve such a purpose". It should be a relatively easy task for a wikipedian in the Memphis area to go and get a photo of the hospital, meaning that the fair use in this case isn't really justified. JeremyA 00:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Memphis Metro

I am thinking of creating an article about Memphis Metropolitan area, similer to Atlanta metropolitan area. this is to remove some clutter on this article. primarily the suburbs, and districts of memphis, which are poorly organized and in some cases just wrong. any thoughts anyone? Barcode 16:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Last week I posted a link on this site and no longer than a couple hours later it was taken off the site. I understand why the link was removed because of the dangers of spam, but I would like to try to repost my link http://memphis.tennessee dot com/ I have some very useful information on Memphis that would benefit this website and the link I am posting goes to a very informative site in just about anything in Memphis, TN. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Problems in Memphis

The article looks terrific but omits all facts that would deemed as derogatory toward Memphis. Such as: Memphis ranks number one in the nation for infant mortality. Memphis ranks number one in the nation for child pedestrian deaths. Memphis ranks forth in the nation for high crime, and a few others.

I'll add this section later this week. If anyone has WP:OWN sentiments, please speak your mind now. Any advice on a section title and content would be appreciated. Thanks. Scribner 19:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you could use the Detroit, Michigan article as a guide in one respect: there's a subsection titled "Crime." Perhaps it could be a subsection of a subsection in this article, maybe under "people and culture." The other information should probably be noted in pre-existing subsections of the "people and culture" section, perhaps under "demographics." · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 19:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)