Talk:Menachem Begin

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Deir Yassin in introduction[edit]

This sentence appears in the introduction: "During his leadership Irgun targeted the Arabs in the Deir Yassin massacre."

I think it's a bit strange to mention one particular operation out of the many the Irgun carried out in the introduction, much less one subject to such controversy. There were plenty of other individual Irgun operations against the British and Arabs, why not mention them all in the introduction?

The randomness of this quote leads me to believe this was put in the intro for political reasons. I suggest removing this from the introduction.--RM (Be my friend) 00:47, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

The intro is poorly written and could use revision. Another problem is that "He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency." is ambiguous (JA opposed the Brits or the revolt?) — probably JA shouldn't be mentioned. If written properly the Deir Yassin massacre and King David Hotel could be mentioned in a few words each, since they are the most famous pre-state actions carried out under Begin's command. Zerotalk 12:07, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Secular Judaism?[edit]

This is listed as his religion, with a wikilink to "Jewish secularism". The article linked as a source (reference) makes no mention of the word "Judaism." I think it is misleading to characterize his religion this way, especially considering that he believed that as a Jewish country, there could never be a complete separation of religion and state in Israel. He was a non-observant but traditional Jew who kept very many observances. The label "secular Jew" falls woefully short. Let's come up with something better. MosheEmes (talk) 17:17, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I now see that the linked article specifically contrasts him with secular prime ministers. I'm changing his designation to simply, "Judaism". This is just like the religion listed for Zalman Shazar, third President of Israel and not strictly orthodox but with warm connections to the Jewish religion and observance. MosheEmes (talk) 15:47, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Also, Mikrobølgeovn's contention that he was "secular in the sense that he was not religious, at least not particularly" is not true. In fact, in public he was completely Sabbath observant, he kept kosher even at home, he fasted on Tisha B'Av (not just Yom Kippur) etc. Se p. 446 of "The Prime Ministers", Yehuda Avner, Toby Press 2010. MosheEmes (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
He was definitely observant, but as the source states, this had more to do with culture and identity than actual religious faith. Stating Judaism alone is extremely vague, as it can mean anything from Reform to Ultra-Orthodox (and these terms don't even make that much sense in an Israeli setting). --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Mikrobølgeovn wrote: "He was definitely observant, but as the source states, this had more to do with culture and identity than actual religious faith." His observances were certainly strongly connected to his sense of culture and identity, but they don't imply an exclusion of religious faith. In fact, there is a pretty clear self-description of his faith given by Begin in "The Prime Ministers" pp. 558-559: Max Fisher asks, "You're a man of belief, are you not?" He answered, “If by that you mean, am I a mystic, then the answer is no. But am I a believer – do I believe in Elokei Yisrael, the God of Israel? The answer is a categorical yes. How else to account for our success in accomplishing the virtually impossible? Every conceivable type of enemy weaponry was arraigned against our pilots when they flew in and out of Baghdad. They had to face anti-aircraft guns, ground-to-air missiles, fighter planes – all there to defend Osirak – yet not a one touched us. Only by the grace of God could we have succeeded in that mission.” In answer to your statement that "Judaism" is vague, it certainly is, but in the context of Begin and Israel (as you pointed out), it will have to suffice. He didn't affiliate with any so-called denomination. His closest religious connections were with the orthodox, which was his upbringing, but he was not orthodox. So how do you describe a Jewish man who had faith in God and kept many traditional observances, who was not Reform, Conservative or Orthodox? By the good old classical label: Jewish! His religion was "Judaism" full stop. MosheEmes (talk) 14:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
And with that, I am more than happy to back down. That source should definitely be added to the article, too. Cheers! --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:17, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

about begin and his opinions[edit]

""As a party, Herut, was far right. In the center-right coalition, it was pro-west, antisocialist, anti-labor, favoring a hard-line policy toward the Arab states and retention of much of the territories taken in the six-day war, a shift from that of the Israel Labor Party’s positive neutralist." http://www.e-ir.info/2012/01/27/likud-a-balance-of-historic-ideology-and-reality/ here it said the herut was little extreme and the likud which found by the same man was more moderate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.246.133.26 (talk) 19:46, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Begin and Tintin[edit]

The article currently states, "A slightly fictionalized Menachem Begin appeared in the first edition of Land of Black Gold ..." referring to the album from The Adventures of Tintin by Hergé. However, this does not make sense, because the first edition of Land of Black Gold was published from 1939 to 1940 (ending in mid-adventure due to the German invasion of Belgium). At the time, Begin had not yet moved to the British Mandate for Palestine nor joined the Irgun, so he could not plausibly have figured into the story. A version of Begin might have appeared in the second edition of Land of Black Gold, published 1948-1949, but no source has been provided to indicate that Begin is depicted in that edition of the album. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Falklands War[edit]

Is there any truth in this claim, or is it just a rumour? (JackDouglag (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC))

Mieczyslaw Biegun[edit]

I believe this issue was brought up in the last archive, but there was no solution. If there is no source referring to Begin as "Mieczyslaw Biegun" then it ought to be removed from the introduction.Fischia Il Vento (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, the presence of the Russian version of his name, Менахем Вольфович Бегин, is strange in that Begin had little connection to Russia other than the fact that Poland was part of the Russian Empire when he was born, and it has a patronymic, Vol'fovich, despite the fact that his father's name was Zeev, as the article states. If there is no source for either of these, I will be removing them. One last note, Biegun, seems to be a Polish surname that has been equated to Begin in the article for the sake of translation, despite no source using it as such. Fischia Il Vento (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC)