Talk:Metallica

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Current status: Featured article

Lead and rhythm guitar roles[edit]

This discussion is to settle the dispute between JesusFreak78 and 4TheWynne about labeling guitar roles per band preference or third party sources.

Recent band style on album liner notes is to dispense with "rhythm" and "lead" guitar and just say that the two guitarists are playing guitar. However, Wikipedia is built mainly on WP:SECONDARY sources, which may be found to describe Hetfield as the rhythm guitarist and Hammett or (earlier) Mustaine playing lead guitar: "The 10 Most Underrated Rhythm Guitarists", Gear Secrets of the Guitar Legends, "'Metallica One' – Classic Tracks", "Metallica's James Hetfield Rides the Lightning", and many more. The book Riffology of Metallica says "For the first five albums all the rhythm guitar parts as well as the harmony parts were played by James with Kirk contributing the solos. If you're trying to obtain the rhythm guitar sound from those records, keep in mind that it's the James Hetfield sound that you're trying to re-create."

This band article should be the easiest place to settle the dispute, while various album and song articles may bring up specific local differences. But let's make sure to summarize for the reader what is the consensus as found in secondary sources. Binksternet (talk) 16:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

On the song/album level, per WP:PRIMARY, album liner notes are perfectly acceptable to source basic facts like performance credits. We should be going by that on the sub-pages. If there are second party sources that can give more detail, with direct quotes from the band like the examples above, then there's nothing wrong with fleshing it out further though too. A hybrid approach is fine when we've got directly spelled out statements straight from band members themselves, like the examples above. Sergecross73 msg me 17:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I've been rethinking the hybrid approach, trying to imagine what would happen if we had the simple "guitar" of the liner notes but a high quality secondary source stated that a particular song had one guy on lead and the other on rhythm. In that case, the secondary source not only offers more information, but it is also a preferred source, per WP:SECONDARY. And its information adds to, rather than contradicts, the primary source. In that case the secondary source would prevail. Binksternet (talk) 04:15, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
This would be fine, but if we are using secondary sources, we don't have to look far to see James taking over more lead responsibility, and Kirk handling much more rhythm than on the first 5 albums. Since the Live box set in 1993, there have been many instances and interviews relating to such things. This is exactly why each member is listed only as a guitar player, without the lead and rhythm being compartmentalized. It would be incorrect to have the wiki pages say that James only pays rhythm and Kirk only plays lead on each album since Load in 1996. I'm only making changes here because we want to have a true account of things on Wikipedia. JesusFreak78 (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry, does DannyMusicEditor not get a mention here? I only reverted once... JesusFreak78, do you have any sources or links to these "many instances and interviews relating to such things" to back up what you've said, seeing as we apparently "don't have to look far"? The roles, as they are listed at the main band article (not at each album article, where it is more specific), represent the musicians' roles in the band, not just in the studio – Hetfield has always been rhythm and Hammett has always been lead. In the studio, Hetfield might play a solo or two, while Hammett might record some rhythm parts – don't exaggerate these facts – but live, it's clear lead and rhythm (you only need to look to their live performances for that). The consensus for years has always been lead and rhythm – obviously at the album articles, that's different, but we don't have to change anything here. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 22:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Second party sources are often less reliable than primary sources for basic facts (plot summaries being a typical example) since they are second hand information. I don't know if that would be an issue for the information discussed here but it's worth keeping in mind. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 12:55, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm thinking the OP is correct, and 4TheWynne, you even said it yourself. What's being corrected are the album articles. And you, the one advocate of having them say Lead/Rhythm, even admitted James plays a couple solos and Kirk contributes rhythm parts. And really, all you need to do is open up the CD booklet to see, it's says James - Guitar, Vocals, and then Kirk - Guitar, since 1996. That's the majority of the bands' existence. I think the articles should tell the truth. Each member on the albums beginning with Load, should say "Guitar," not "Lead" or "Rhythm."TremontiCreedAB (talk) 20:35, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

On the origin of the band[edit]

I'd remove the origin of the band from the infobox as the band moved to San Francisco before the release of their debut album. Emphasizing their Los Angeles origin is misleading. RF354 (talk) 13:58, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

RF354, just because the band's been based elsewhere for most of its career, doesn't mean that the origin should be removed from the infobox. It's not placing an emphasis on the origin – that's just something that should always be there, and I certainly don't see how it's "misleading" (even to include both). 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 22:51, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
The origin in the infobox is simply misleading as they moved to San Francisco BEFORE the release of their debut album. (The article is about the band, not only indiviuals.) You also overemphasize their formation in Los Angeles in the lead when they are generally referred to as a "San Francisco metal band".
Using a primary source in this case is more than acceptable. RF354 (talk) 11:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
So what if the band moved to San Francisco before the release of Kill 'Em All – how does that make the origin misleading? The band still formed in Los Angeles, and the current wording details this while still emphasising that the band has been based in San Francisco for most of its career (it also reads better than other versions that have been presented). To be clear, the fact that the band relocated is not being disputed here, so extra sources aren't required. 4TheWynne(talk)(contribs) 13:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Per WP:Primary primary sources are tolerated when only referencing facts, not interpretations, which is the case here.
  • You keep writing: The band is from Los Angeles. This is NOT true. Even if we write "formed in LA", we should explain in the same sentence that they are a band actually from San Francisco. Your wording is not readable, rather confusing.
  • As this is a debated issue (see your own behavior), we need at least two references. We still have a misleading hidden warning in the infobox! RF354 (talk) 14:15, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Fine, I moved the LA text to the next sentence about formation. Hidden notes are just notes, not warnings per se. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Lead guitarist vs Rhythm guitarist[edit]

That James is the rhythm guitarist just because he is the lead vocalist is completely opinionative, just as much as it is incorrect. James and Kirk often share solo duties, hence why they are listed simply as "guitar", rather than one being lead guitar and the other being rhythm guitar. Hafiq Noordin (talk)(contribs) 14:19, 4 July 2018 (UTC)