Talk:Mexican National Heavyweight Championship

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Featured list Mexican National Heavyweight Championship is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
March 28, 2009 Featured list candidate Promoted
WikiProject Mexico (Rated FL-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mexico, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Mexico on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Professional wrestling (Rated FL-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon Mexican National Heavyweight Championship is within the scope of WikiProject Professional wrestling, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to professional wrestling. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, visit the project to-do page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to discussions.
Featured list FL  This article has been rated as FL-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Featured List preparations[edit]

I've decided that I am going to try and make this a "Featured List", hopefully the first of many FLs on Mexican wrestling titles. This is my test subject, once I get this one approved I'll implement stuff I've done here to other Mexican title listings. I've put a to-do list up made from input from a couple of fellow wikipedians. Please feel free to help out or provide input along the way. MPJ-DK (talk) 12:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Obviously one of the things I did was to split out the actual list ;) MPJ-DK (talk) 12:06, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Pre-FL Review[edit]

Lead
  • The Mexican National Heavyweight Championship (called the Campeonato Nacional Completo in Spanish) is a national Mexican professional wrestling championship created and sanctioned by "Comisión de Box y Lucha Libre Mexico D.F." (the Mexico City Boxing and Wrestling Commission). -- (1)Mexican should just be "lucha libre" not linked to Mexican, as lucha libre is a form of professional wrestling in Latin American countries, not just Mexico (2)Replace sanctioned with "operated" (3)The Spanish name of the promotion should be in italics per MOS:ITALICS (4)the is a part should be reworded to "is a Mexican lucha libre professional wrestling..." [no need for the national part, unless you are inferring that it is a World Heavyweight Championship?]
  • 1) Actually since it's a title restricted to Mexicans I found that Lucha Libre is too broad a term like you said Lucha isn't limited to Mexico - while this title is limited just to Mexico. I can change it but I feel that the other way makes more sense given the specifics of this particular title.
  • 3) Done
  • 4) Done
  • While the commission sanctions the title, it does not promote the events at which the title is defended. -- sanctions should be "operates"
  • Sanctioned is the correct term here, it's used in plenty of sports and "operated" means they have a practical "day to day" involvement with the title, they don't at all.
  • As the championship is a professional wrestling championship it is not won or lost competitively but instead by the decision of the bookers of a wrestling promotion. -- Reword the beginning to "As it is a professional wrestling championship, it is not won or lost...."
  • Done
  • The title is awarded after the chosen champion "wins" a match to maintain the illusion that professional wrestling is a competitive sport. -- This is really jargony. With this explanation, you will need to further explain how pro wrestling works, it is best if you follow a similar formula in explaining this like it is in the recent promoted FLs.
  • It's not jargony at all IMO, in a few simple sentences it explains that the titles aren't won competitivly and that pro wrestling is basically pre-determined, what more do you need to know to get the gist of it?. I found it to be quite the opposite of jargon really.
  • The earliest documented use of the Mexican National Heavyweight Title is in 1926, with the possibility that it is even older. -- The last part of the sentence is WP:OR, it is best if you just leave it out.
  • Done
  • The earliest documented use of the Mexican National Heavyweight Title is in 1926, with the possibility that it is even older. Being created in or before 1926 means that the Mexican National Heavyweight Championship is the oldest continuously promoted wrestling title in the world, predating even the creation of the oldest currently active wrestling promotion. -- it would be best to merge these with my suggestions as "The earliest documented use of the Mexican National Heavyweight Title is in 1926, meaning that it is the oldest continuously operated wrestling title in the world." (I left , predating even the creation of the oldest currently active wrestling promotion this part out because I'm not sure what you were trying to say [are you saying that is older than the oldest promotion?])
  • Done, and no I didn't mean to imply that it predates ALL wrestling promotions, but that it predates all wrestling promotions that are still active today. To reduce confusion I removed it instead.
  • At some point after Pierroth, Jr. won the title in 1995, he left CMLL and signed with AAA, bringing the Mexican National Heavyweight title with him. -- Reword to "After Pierroth, Jr. won the title in 1995, he left CMLL and signed with AAA, bringing the Mexican National Heavyweight Title with him to the company." [the term "Title" when used with the official name of the championship needs to be capitalized, and promotion and company need to be used interchangeably]
  • Done
  • The current Champion, Charly Manson, is the longest reigning champion; although, there is some uncertainty over his championship status. The longest documented reign belongs to El Médico Asesino who held the title for 2074 days (over five and a half years). Mr. Águila holds the distinction of being the champion for the shortest amount of time with 42 days. -- Reword to "The current Champion, Charly Manson, is the longest reigning champion; though, there is some uncertainty over his championship status, and as a result, the longest documented reign belongs to El Médico Asesino, who held the title for 2074 days. Mr. Águila holds the distinction of being the champion for the shortest amount of time with 42 days."
  • Done, took your suggestion
Key
  • (n) - Indicates that a certain event took place "no later than" the date listed. This puzzles me, I don't get the purpose of this symbol and it use, as its not common in other FLs.
  • Few of the FLs have history that dates back so far that the documentation is sparse, the (n) symbols means that during their research they found that at "this date in time" a person was listed as holding the title, but no record of who he defeated or when - which means that all they know is that this champion won the date "No later" than the date they've found but can't pin it down any further than this. It's the notation of the wrestling title history book.
  • 'Indicates that there was a period where the lineage is documented. -- for this symbol, I would add a footnote explaining why it isn't documented
  • I can do that i suppose, state that documentation of wrestling from the 20s to the 40s is hard to come by.
Champions
  • The locations need to be all linked (regardless of whether they were linked once already since this is a sortable table)
  • I will do that
  • The date does not sort properly.
  • the problem is when there are only years or only years and months it throws off the sort, I'll fiddle with it.
  • I figured it out. It was the dates that were only year or month & year. I solved it too, inserted a hidden "full date" putting it to the first day of the specific month or year using <span style="display:none">{{dts|yyy|mm|dd}}</span>. So sorting is... well sorted ;) MPJ-DK (talk) 11:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Explain what the "bold" in the days held column means.
  • That's not explained in one single other FL I've looked at, I took the format from there but I'd rather personally remove it (so that's what I've done)
References
  • Pro wrestling history and wrestling-titles is not reliable</s<
  • Technically they're "undetermined", neither have been proven unreliable - they're a source, just not a "Reliable Source" and are only used for referencing "noncontroversial" facts, I'm finding that people go overboard on the "RS" account, but I've got a lead on something more acceptable for the FLC reviews so that'll be sorted.
  • Replaced with wrestling magazine references, fortunately I know a few Mexican fans who collect these and they've been very helpful. I kept the Wrestling-title.com source for the weight, it's a harmless piece of information IMO, should be alright. MPJ-DK (talk) 19:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Format the wrestling title histories ref as a general ref, as seen in this FL ref section.
  • Can do, I like that.
Summary
  • For now, its not ready to be nominated for FLC due to the many problems in all areas.--RUCӨ 21:01, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I agree with "operates" instead of "sanctions". "Operates" sounds awkward in that context, and "sanctions" is a word used throughout many sports. Perhaps "recognizes" or "owns"? In addition, the "jargony" sentence doesn't appear to have any jargon. It explains how professional wrestling works in language that should be understandable to a wide audience. Finally, "though" and "although" can't be used after a semicolon like they appear in the final point for the lead. If the whole sentence isn't going to be rephrased, the semicolon should be replaced with a comma; if it is rephrased, the "though" should more to after "status" and be set off with commas on either side. GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:36, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I tend to agree on "Sanctions" and the jargony. I've also fixed the gramatic problem you pointed out.
Yeah, most likely, I'm not the best in grammar.--RUCӨ 23:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I've had a run through a lot of this, fixed a bunch and now just need to work in the sources for the changes past 2000, like all locations (how about wrestlers? same logic with the sort) and then figure out why the date sort is off. Thank you both for the input and the copyediting it's greatly appreciated. MPJ-DK (talk) 10:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I think I've fixed it all, location links, sorting, sources, the whole lot. Unless someone spots something majorly wrong I'm going to nominate it later today or tomorrow. MPJ-DK (talk) 19:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Remove the periods from the notes, they are not complete sentences. What are the specific references in the notes column actually verifying that the main general ref cant? In addition, you need to make it clear that the gold color in the "by lengths" table is explained because the most recent FLs are on titles that are not active, so it should explain that it highlights the current champion.--RUCӨ 22:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Main ref only runs until the end of 1999 as the book was published in 2000, everything after that needs it's own reference. And again - I've not seen that done in other FLs I've looked at (including your example of the WWE Championship) but it's not a problem to do so. MPJ-DK (talk) 06:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
  • That's because they were passed before the FL criteria became for strict and before the recent FLs were passed. In the last year, no active championship (list) has been nominated or promoted to FL(C) status. Which is why you don't see that in the other FL's. In addition, at FLC, they may ask for more notes (not the matches but other relevant notes).--RUCӨ 20:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Longest reign[edit]

June 2006 to February 2010 is nowhere near 2088 days, 2088 days is 5¾ years....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

You are right, the formula to calculate that was off, it was 1358 days, good catch.  MPJ -US  20:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Still needs amending in the lead. The length of Medico Asesino's reign is also incorrect in the lead and both tables..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Both things that you could have just as easily fixed. Just saying.  MPJ -US  23:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hector Garzas 2nd reign as champion?[edit]

According to Hector Garzas wikipedia page it says that he retired from in-ring competition due to lung cancer on October 15, 2012 and on the page it states on May 26, 2013 the day he passed away, so would this mean that the championship would have been vacated on October 15 due to his retirement from wrestling? and not on May 26 when he passed away?