Talk:Mid central vowel

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The first three discussions below took place at Talk:Mid central unrounded vowel, before the article was moved here. See also Talk:Schwa. FilipeS 19:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Portuguese "a" a mid-central vowel?[edit]

According to the vowel chart here, the "a" sound from European Portuguese mentioned in the article is not a mid-central vowel. It's pretty close to being one, but it's slightly more open. FilipeS 21:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It is between mid and open-mid, therefore can be listed either here, or on open-mid central unrounded vowel. I'd say leave it here. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 17:25, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Rename[edit]

This article should be renamed Mid central vowel, and what is currently at Close-mid_central_rounded_vowel#Mid_central_rounded_vowel should be brought here. From the discussion here, it is clear that the IPA symbol ə can stand for a rounded or unrounded vowel. This includes both the mid central unrounded vowel and the mid central rounded vowel. FilipeS 14:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

But isn't the ə used for a rounded vowel a schwa rather than specifically a mid-central vowel? I'm not sure if we need to merge the rounded and unrounded varieties. Do any languages contrast a rounded mid central vowel with an unrounded one? Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

This is one of Kwami's replies, in the discussion I linked to:

[ʊ] and [æ] are defined as rounded and unrounded in the IPA Handbook ("near-close near-back rounded vowel" and "near-open front unrounded vowel"), but [ɐ] and [ə] are not ("near-open central vowel" and "mid central vowel"). Open vowels seldom have rounding contrasts, so that isn't much of an issue for [ɐ], but [ɐ]* could be rounded too. With [ɘ̞] you're clearly saying that the vowel is unrounded. With [ə] you're not (it could be [ɘ̞] or [ɵ̞]), and moreover only [ə] has the connotation of being a reduced vowel. For example, the Handbook says of French [ə] that it has "some rounding". kwami 08:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

*I think he meant to write [ə]. FilipeS 21:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Schwa[edit]

Please explain in the introduction how this is related to / different from the Schwa. As it is, the beginning of the article is very confusing for non-experts, and it gets worse when they look at Mid_central_vowel#Occurs_in for help. --Espoo 09:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, isn't this the vowel that is used in General American English for practically any vowel character (as in the <a> in "about", the <e> in "item", the <i> in "edible", the <o> in "common", and the <u> in "circus")? Why isn't General American usage listed here? Isn't this also the same "uh" noise from German that is used with an <e> at the end of a word (i.e., "danke" or "Porsche")? The way this article is written, it makes it sound like it isn't in those languages. Yet you are directed here from the schwa article. RobertM525 (talk) 08:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
This page indicates that it is used in both General American English as well as in German. I have added German to the article. I'm not quite sure what the best way to add GAE to the article would be... RobertM525 (talk) 01:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

RP example[edit]

I'm planning on removing the example of RP to Open-mid central unrounded vowel. See Talk:Open-mid central unrounded vowel#Received Pronunciation for my booksnooping notes. – ishwar  (speak) 05:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Aye, as of this writing, the RP transcription does not contain /ə/! It's a bit of a problem... -sche (talk) 22:48, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Does this count as a Mid-central vowel?[edit]

In the English word wood which is pronouced (wud) sound very similar too (wəd), and the Hebrew word יין "wine" which is pronouced (jajin) sound very similar too (jajən). does this mean that (wu) and (ji) are the same as (wə) and (jə)?, does those count also as Mid-central vowel?

It depends on the language. "Sounding similar" is subjective and doesn't necessarily mean the sounds are the same. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 19:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

West Frisian[edit]

Did someone else noted that it is represented in both rounded and unrounded columns without explaining? Lguipontes (talk) 05:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

French[edit]

Missing: le, de, ne,.... --Pierrejcd (talk) 01:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

French is there in the second table. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 04:38, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Swedish[edit]

Energi is very rarely pronounced as it says in the article. The majority pronounce it with a clear /ɛ/ and the N is not long. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.255.182.142 (talk) 20:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it does look a little funny. I changed the example. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 20:57, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Romanian[edit]

The sound example given for "măr" sound nothing like the word. If you would pronounce it like that to a Romanian all you would get is funny looks. The given example sounds more like "meârrr", â being ɨ, and the e being very short; the r is also unusually long and overly pronounced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.105.140.131 (talk) 07:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hyphen in title[edit]

The hyphen in the title (mid-central rather than mid central) is inconsistent with the titles of other vowel articles. In all other titles (I think), the hyphen is placed in the words for either height (near-close, close-mid, open-mid, etc.) or backness (near-front, near-back). Placing a hyphen between the height (mid) and backness (central) is confusing. The article should be renamed Mid central vowel for consistency. Do others agree? — Eru·tuon 17:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

It is also inconsistent with logic. The "mid" does not refer to "central", but to "vowel", as in mid vowel. A dash might make sense logically, but I don't know if that would fly. --JorisvS (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I do agree. I actually thought about raising this issue a few months ago. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 18:14, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I tend to agree too. I don't think a dash would help either. But I see from the logs that the page was originally titled "mid central", and was moved in 2010 - perhaps User:Kwamikagami, who moved it, had some reasons for doing so? W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Here, let us ping, just in case: @Kwamikagami:. — Eru·tuon 21:35, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
My reason was that it is not a central vowel that is mid (a mid central vowel), as opposed to a mid vowel that is central (a central mid vowel), but a vowel that is simultaneously and equally mid and central, with neither taking precedence. I believe that hyphens are typically used for such things. In other vowel names, the frontness and height seem like to independent dimensions; here they're more like a single right in the middle. But I'm not going to argue if someone moves it. — kwami (talk) 19:56, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Hm, I am puzzled by your reasoning; we don't write, for instance, mid-front rounded vowel or mid-back unrounded vowel. I think the height and backness of a vowel are always considered to be coequal characteristics, with neither taking precedence. I suppose what you're saying is simply that the mid central vowel is equally central in both height and backness, but I'm not sure why that should make it unique as far as naming is concerned. — Eru·tuon 20:15, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not persuaded by Kw's reasoning either - well, certainly not by the first reason, which would apply to all other vowels as well, if it were valid. As to the second reason, I'd only be persuaded if it could be shown that significant reliable sources use a hyphen in this case while omitting it in the others as we do. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
By kwami's reasoning we should use a dash (in all these articles), not a hyphen nor a space. --JorisvS (talk) 23:02, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Would you write "a nice–warm day" or "a big–ugly dog"?? W. P. Uzer (talk) 08:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

So, is there a general consensus that moving it back to Mid central vowel makes sense? Any objections? It looks like it can be done without administrator's help. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Apparently no objections, so I've done it. W. P. Uzer (talk) 20:59, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Italian[edit]

Hi, does anyone know if Italian use the same vowel (ɘ ~ ə) to reinforce or emphasize final consonants as Central Valencian? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 00:26, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

In Italian and French, final voiced consonants can have an "exaggerated release" (not sure how to call it...) with a short [ə]-type vowel, but I'm not at all sure about its exact quality. Maybe it's variable, maybe it's not. Peter238 (talk) 12:45, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I think it's ɘ/ë in Italian because it's unstressed (perhaps it could become ə in some cases). — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 05:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
It's not necessarily a good argument, because it's just a short, epenthetic vowel that has no phonemic status (it's just a part of release of final voiced consonants, and psychologically (or subconsciously, not sure to call it), native speakers treat it as such). I'd expect it to be variable in quality. Maybe Canepari has more to say about that, try to dig up that info on his website. AFAIK, he's not considered a reliable source here, but he makes some interesting points in his writings. Peter238 (talk) 06:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Check this ([1]), it explains some cases in Italian. ([...] filobus [ˈfilobus] diventa localmente [filoˈbusːə], lapis [laˈpisːə], cognac [koˈɲakːə], vermut [verˈmutːə]; tale adattamento avviene anche nei nomi propri come in David [daˈvidːə]. Questo fenomeno è distribuito in tutto il territorio italiano, Toscana compresa (Tagliavini 1949).) — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 10:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
And it seems it's variable:
Anche nei dialetti italiani l’epitesi è presente e si realizza in maniera differente da nord a sud. Ad es., i prestiti stranieri subiscono epitesi: in Toscano bus e frac diventano [ˈbusːe] e [ˈfrakːe] con epitesi della vocale -e e rafforzamento della consonante finale; in calabrese club diventa [ˈglubːu] con epitesi della vocale -u; a Napoli lapis è [ˈlapːəsə]; in Salento, bar dà [ˈbarːa], film dà [ˈfilmi], ecc., con epitesi dell’ultima vocale; nell’Italia centrale tram sarà [ˈtramːe] [...]. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 11:07, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
There's your answer then, it seems I was right. Thanks for the link. Peter238 (talk) 12:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome. And you were right, but they can also occur after voiceless consonants. Shall we add Italian then? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 20:25, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
Is lapis a good example or perhaps we should choose another term? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 20:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
You mean using it as an example word? Sure. Peter238 (talk) 20:49, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

ə̹ vs ɵ̞[edit]

This subject is only to talk about the edit wars that opposes me to ip 89.72.244.110.

So. My main argument is that ə being nearer of ə̹ than ɵ in the IPA chart, we should use ə̹ instead of ɵ̞ . BeKowz (talk) 11:59, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

(89... speaking)
  • Not all possible vowels have a separate symbol. For instance, the unrounded equivalent of [ʊ] (which, unlike [ə], has a defined rounding ("rounded") in the official IPA) is best transcribed [ɯ̽]. The same applies to the so-called true-mid vowels (or simply "mid vowels"), which are often transcribed (see the established IPA transcriptions for e.g. Spanish, Hebrew, Finnish, Estonian, Turkish languages) with the symbols for the corresponding close-mid vowels ⟨e, ø, ɵ, ɤ, o⟩ (the unrounded mid central vowel tends to be transcribed simply with ⟨ə⟩). In our other articles (mid front unrounded vowel, mid front rounded vowel, mid back unrounded vowel, mid back rounded vowel) we transcribe them in our tables as [e̞, ø̞, ɤ̞, o̞], which is one of two valid ways of transcribing them narrowly, the other two being raised open-mid [ɛ̝, œ̝, ʌ̝, ɔ̝]. However, we're opting for [e̞, ø̞, ɤ̞, o̞] because (excluding ⟨ɤ̞⟩) [e̞, ø̞, o̞] are modifications of the symbols [e, ø, o], which, in case of transcribing the vowels that phonetically are between close-mid and open-mid, are preferred by the IPA itself (see Handbook of the IPA, cited in the article) due to the fact that they're the same letters as, respectively, English ⟨e⟩, Danish/Norwegian ⟨ø⟩ and English ⟨o⟩, which makes them very easy to type (especially in case of ⟨e, o⟩). Using ⟨ə̹⟩ instead of ⟨ɵ̞⟩ introduces inconsistency in this regard, though we could also think about changing ⟨ə⟩ to ⟨ɘ̞⟩. See also Wells (2009a), maybe also Wells (2009b).
  • As far as I can see, we have two languages (Danish and Luxembourgish) in both sections. It is, in my opinion, better to use a symbol that looks noticeably different (⟨ə⟩ vs. ⟨ɵ̞⟩) than to rely on one diacritic alone (⟨ə⟩ vs. ⟨ə̹⟩). The issue is much more serious in case of the Chemnitz German dialect, because not only is that dialect present in both of our tables, but the example word we use contains both rounded and unrounded schwas!
  • Because of the extreme similarity of the symbols ⟨ə⟩ and ⟨ə̹⟩, one can imagine the rounded allophone of /ə/ being transcribed with as [ɵ̞] (or simply [ɵ], with verbal clarification that the sound in question is phonetically true-mid) in narrow phonetic transcription. The reverse (e.g. transcribing New England English/Swedish /ɵ/ or Belgian Dutch /øː/ as [ə̹(ː)]), however, just does not happen (although such transcription would be valid). In case of e.g. New England English/Swedish, it makes no sense, because all you need to do is to apply a "lowered" diacritic to the symbol ⟨ɵ⟩. This argument may not be the best one though, because, for the sake of consistency and simplicity, in our vowel tables we often ignore the common transcription practices if they're at odds with the most common symbol the vowel in question is transcribed with, and consider a verbal explanation (e.g. "Typically transcribed in IPA with ⟨ɞ⟩.") to be good enough. Besides, "Diphthongized to [ə̹ə̯] (...)" - seriously? That looks really ugly...
  • You can't speak about "ə being nearer of ə̹ than ɵ in the IPA chart", as [ə] in the kosher IPA does not differ in anything but (potentially) rounding - [ə] in kosher IPA can be either rounded or unrounded, though more often it denotes an unrounded sound. Therefore, as far as the kosher IPA vowel chart is concerned, [ə] shares exactly the same place of articulation as [ə̹].
  • Each edit you've made contains a mistake in the edit summary and/or messed up one of the transcriptions, which doesn't really help your credibility. Please watch that next time. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)