Talk:Middle East

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

poop skeet

Spelling of transcription of Arabic "Middle East"[edit]

The article lists "Asharq Al-Awsṭ" as the transcription of Arabic الشرق الأوسط, "the Middle East."

The second word should be rendered something like "'awsaṭ."

I sometimes hear Arabic students incorrectly say "awsṭ," and I think this is why.

A more appropriate transcription would be "aš-šharq al-'awsaṭ." The (') should hook toward the left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 17:06, 9 April 2013

Inclusion (or not) of Cyprus in the Middle East and a vandalism report[edit]

I don't know if the general consensus for Cyprus is to be considered part of the Middle East or not. If it is, then the Greek population of Cyprus should be mentioned in the lead paragraph where a series of ethnic groups are noted. If not, then references to Cyprus should be removed altogether (there are five now). By the way, there seems to be some vandalism going on (search for 000,000 within the article and you will see what I mean). — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:11, 7 December 2017 (UTC) (adding my signature -- I accidentally made the comment without having logged in first...) Rentzepopoulos (talk) 11:18, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

As I did not receive any comment pro or against, I moved and performed the changes that in my opinion should be made to the article (as also backed by the existing sources). Rentzepopoulos (talk) 13:11, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Cyprus is usually always referred to as being part of Europe, not the Middle East. It's also part of the European Union, so it should definitely be excluded from this article.

Northern Cyprus is a bit more complicated. Since the whole island is commonly referred to as part of eruope, that includes the north too. So I think that country should be removed as well, until anyone lists a reliable source that states it's usually referred to as part of the Middle East. Dank Chicken (talk) 14:31, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chicken, Cyprus is part of the Asian continent, not European. Cyprus is south of Turkey. Membership of an economic union, such as the EU, does not change the geography. Turkey may one day join the EU (though with Erdogan, that seems less likely) but that wouldn't move it from the Middle East to Europe. I think you are the one that needs to provide a reliable source that Cyprus is not part of the Middle East. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

All of the following sources list Cyprus as a European (one also states "geographically Asian") country, but makes little to no mention of the Middle East. [1], [2], [3]
Calling Cyprus a Middle Eastern country is debatable at best. I propose Cyprus be removed from the list, and Cyprus along with European Turkey be made light-green on the lead map. Dank Chicken (talk) 16:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chicken, the first source you listed, CIA Factbook, says that Cyprus is in the Middle East. Expand the location tab. The second, Wikitravel, cannot be used as a reliable source, but it only says "politically European". The third, a map on Commons (again not a reliable source), is a map of the EU, not Europe. Look at Commons' map of Europe here and Cyprus is not included. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 16:48, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
An example can perhaps draw parallels for you. Greenland is an island of Denmark and thus part of the EU. However, it is in North America, not Europe. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 16:52, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

No, the CIA factbook states "Cyprus views itself as part of Europe; geopolitically, it can be classified as falling within Europe, the Middle East, or both".
Because of that, and the fact that no source clearly states that Cyprus is a middle eastern country, we should make a "sometimes also included" list consisting of Cyprus and northern Cyprus, below the list of countries. That's still a compromise weighing heavily in your favour. Dank Chicken (talk) 18:07, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chicken. What you are citing is the note. The statement about Cyprus is "Location: Middle East, island in the Mediterranean Sea, south of Turkey". The Middle East is a geographical description. It is not affected by politics, language, ethnicity, religion or "people's feelings". That also means that Cyprus should not be divided just because some of it is Turkish. If you are going to play the game "one of these is not like the other" then why is Israel in the Middle East? And you are wrong. There are sources, well respected sources, that say Cyprus is in the Middle East. Encyclopedia Britannica has this Middle East entry (second paragraph). And as I pointed out, the CIA Factbook also states that Cyprus is in the Middle East. I think your position is the one that is lacking sources. --SVTCobra (talk) 19:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Since you really belive that the only factor is geography; I'll have you know that Cyprus is actually above the Eurasian tectonic plate, not the Arabian or African.

Also, the CIA factbook first and foremost states that Cyprus is in Europe (see the map and text in the lead), and later on states in its geography paragraph that Cyprus "can be classified as falling within Europe, the Middle East, or both".

Finally, "Middle East" is a geopolitical and not geographical term, so I don't see why it should be all about geography. Here are three more reliable sources placing Cyprus in Europe, [4], [5], [6], which even strengthens my proposal that the list should state "sometimes also included". Dank Chicken (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chickien. I believe you are talking yourself into black hole. Many countries (if not most) in the Middle East are part of the Eurasian tectonic plate. And what difference does it make if the CIA Factbook shows a map of the EU with Cyprus included? Their statement is: "Middle East, island in the Mediterranean Sea, south of Turkey; note - Cyprus views itself as part of Europe; geopolitically, it can be classified as falling within Europe, the Middle East, or both". That is their full statement. They do not say it is not Middle East. At best (for your position) it is both. Where is your source for Cyprus not being part of the Middle East? At this point, I also have to question your motive. It is obviously not a matter of being factually accurate, since you are grasping at straws. Do you, for some reason, feel that it reflects poorly on Cyprus if it is included in Middle East? (Added by SVTCobra)

I don't have any sources saying that Cyprus isn't part of the Middle East; nor do I have any sources saying the sun isn't blue. But perhaps you missed my last edit to my post above, where I added three additional sources positioning Cyprus in Europe. The hypothesis that I would somehow think the country is poorly reflected if counted as Middle Eastern is preposterous. As you noted before, Israel is in the Middle East, and I think that it is a very nice country. It has rich history, wonderful climate, and cool people, just like Cyprus. I am simply trying to be factual. If you'd agree to make a list of "sometimes also included", I'd recommend also adding Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, as they're part of (southern) Caucasus, which is sometimes counted as Middle Eastern. [7]
Dank Chicken (talk) 16:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh, you added more while I wrote what you see directly above. Three (3) more sources, you say. Well, two (2) of them are travel guides. That makes sense for them since Cyprus is part of the Schengen Agreement and travel is all about being legally able to enter a country. But if you take this position, then suddenly the UK and Switzerland are not part of Europe. Now the third is a reliable source. Britain's BBC. But the problem is that they only included that story in their "Europe" news because it was important to Europeans and the EU. Yes there was and edit-conflict and again now you added more. I will respond immediately, but posting this first. --SVTCobra (talk) 16:29, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
If I agree to "sometimes included". Well, that is a double-edged sword. Greece is sometimes included, too. Sometimes countries on the eastern coast of Africa are described as "Middle East", too. You have changed your argument completely, however. First you wanted to exclude Cyprus, now you want include a bunch of other countries.SVTCobra (talk) 16:49, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

To be clear; I want to make a list named "sometimes also included", consisting of Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan.
I've never heard of Greece being considered as Middle Eastern, and if it is, it's most likely rare enough not to be considered "sometimes".
Dank Chicken (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

OK, Dank Chicken. Compile your list and return with a suggestion for the "Sometimes included". That will not get Cyprus excluded, however. But let me be the first to help you compile your list. Here is Encyclopedia Britannica saying that Greece is sometimes in the Middle East, third paragraph. No need to thank me. --SVTCobra (talk) 17:20, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Nah, don't be modest, I'll thank you anyways! So are you in favour of adding Greece along with the countries I listed above to such a list? And making a ref-note to Cyprus stating it's usually considered to be European and/or Middle Eastern?
(To be perfectly honest, my main motive for the change is to be factual. But actually, I'm also thinking of making a top and bottom three nations by region, to the article Democracy Index, and was unsure if I should place Cyprus with Eastern Europe or the Middle East. I still think the country is more identifiable with the former than the latter, wouldn't you agree?)
Dank Chicken (talk) 17:38, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

No. I would opt for keeping it as is, but if someone made such a list, I guess I wouldn't object, Well, I have not seen Democracy Index, but it sounds like a political article. If so, you can easily place the nation of Cyprus in Europe or EU without changing anything here. SVTCobra (talk) 23:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

By the way, the Middle East is not a "geographical fact" like people on here stated and even though the majority of the Middle Eastern Nations are situated in West Asia, it certainly does not mean that the Middle East and West Asia are synonymous!! So much ignorance it is sad. Anyways, The Middle East is a man made geopolitical region which means the region's geographical makeup was literally determined by man solely based on shared politics, culture, language and shared history rather than a shared continent and that is why the countries of the Caucasus such as Armenia and Azerbaijan, which are in west Asia, are not considered in the Middle East while Egypt, which is in Africa, is considered to be in the Middle East(but to my shocking realization I found out that the CIA website thinks Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia are in the middle east which shows that the level of ignorance is even reaching the damn CIA.. GOD HELP US ALL!! Mind you, those are the people that we think are masterminds conspiring against us and controlling our every move, did 9/11, killed Kennedy, hiding Aliens from us, and are calling the shots for significant international events ). Anyways, the Middle East region was created way before the European term "Middle East" was invented. The region's concept was originally created by Arab Historians and geographers such as Ibn Khaldun in the Middle Ages as a division between the Western Berber Maghreb region(Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco) from the Eastern part of the Arab world(Egypt, the Levant, the Arabian peninsula and Iraq) and in the 19th and 20th century when the Europeans invented the term “Middle East” to refer to the same region, they added the non Arab countries(Iran, Turkey, Israel and Cyprus). Also context is very important when we are talking about those regions because in the modern context when we mention “North Africa” we are strictly just talking about the Maghreb region and not the actual entirety of North Africa. When will people be educated about this already? We are heading towards 2020 and people still think the Middle East is continental based when in fact it is a transcontinental region like it mentions in the article. Thank God for the few educated people on here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArabPride (talkcontribs) 07:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 June 2018[edit]

Add Cyprus coat of arms to table. Change blank to File:Coat of arms of Cyrpus(old).svg Wikiemirati (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D ( • ) 00:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2018[edit]

I have Nicosia's skyline photo, it would be nice if added in the end along with the other Middle Eastern city photos. Thanks.

Nicosia, Cyprus

N236ik (talk) 17:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done Kpgjhpjm 07:29, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Request to update outdated population + gdp to 2017 estimates (the article is from 2012)[edit]

- ! Country,
with flag ! Area
(km²) ! Population
(2017)[1] ! Density
(per km²) ! Capital ! Nominal
, bn (2017)[2] ! Per capita (2017)[3] ! Currency ! Government ! Official
languages ! Coat
arms Marjdabi (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Not done You need to provide the full text you wish to replace the existing information. Fish+Karate 13:34, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
@Fish and karate: I've updated it Marjdabi (talk) 00:46, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Request to update population and GDP - Didn't show up first time, here is it is. @Fish_and_karate[edit]

Territories and regions[edit]

Territories and regions usually considered within the Middle East[edit]

Traditionally included within the Middle East are Iran (Persia), Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, the Levant, the Arabian Peninsula, and Egypt. In modern-day-country terms they are these:

with flag
(per km²)
Capital Nominal
, bn (2017)[5]
Per capita (2017)[6] Currency Government Official
 Bahrain 665 1,410,942 2,121.7 Manama $35,307 $23,655 Bahraini dinar Absolute monarchy Arabic Emblem of Bahrain
 Cyprus 9,250 1,221,549 132 Nicosia $21,652 $25,234 Euro Presidential republic Greek,
Coat of arms of Cyprus
 Egypt 1,010,407 97,041,072 96 Cairo $235,369 $2,413 Egyptian pound Presidential republic Arabic File:Coat of Arms of Egypt
 Iran 1,648,195 82,021,564 49.7 Tehran $439,514 $5,415 Iranian rial Islamic republic Persian Emblem of Iran
 Iraq 438,317 39,192,111 89.4 Baghdad $197,716 $5,166 Iraqi dinar Parliamentary republic Arabic,
Coat of arms of Iraq
 Israel 20,770 8,299,706 399.6 Jerusalema $350,851 $40,270 Israeli shekel Parliamentary republic Hebrew,
Emblem of Israel
 Jordan 92,300 10,248,069 111 Amman $40,068 $4,130 Jordanian dinar Constitutional monarchy Arabic Coat of arms of Jordan
 Kuwait 17,820 2,875,422 161.3 Kuwait City $120,126 $29,040 Kuwaiti dinar Constitutional monarchy Arabic Emblem of Kuwait
 Lebanon 10,452 6,229,794 596 Beirut $51,844 $8,524 Lebanese pound Parliamentary republic Arabic Coat of arms of Lebanon
 Oman 212,460 4,613,241 21.7 Muscat $72,643 $15,668 Omani rial Absolute monarchy Arabic National emblem of Oman
 Palestine 6,220 4,543,126 730.4 Ramallaha $14,498 $3,095 Israeli shekel,
Jordanian dinar
Semi-presidential republic Arabic Coat of arms of Palestine
 Qatar 11,437 2,314,307 202.3 Doha $167,605 $63,506 Qatari riyal Absolute monarchy Arabic Emblem of Qatar
 Saudi Arabia 2,149,690 28,571,770 13.2 Riyadh $683,827 $20,761 Saudi riyal Absolute monarchy Arabic Emblem of Saudi Arabia
 Syria 185,180 18,028,549 97.3 Damascus n/a n/a Syrian pound Presidential republic Arabic Coat of arms of Syria
 Turkey 783,562 80,845,215 103.1 Ankara $851,102 $10,541 Turkish lira Presidential republic Turkish Emblem of the Republic of Turkey
 United Arab Emirates 82,880 6,072,475 73.2 Abu Dhabi $382,575 $40,699 UAE dirham Federal Absolute monarchy Arabic Emblem of the United Arab Emirates
 Yemen 527,970 28,036,829 53.1 Sana'ab
Aden (provisional)
n/a n/a Yemeni rial Provisional presidential republic Arabic Emblem of Yemen

a. ^ ^ Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of Israel and the actual location of the Knesset, Israeli Supreme Court, and other governmental institutions of Israel. Ramallah is the actual location of the government of Palestine, whereas the proclaimed capital of Palestine is East Jerusalem, which is disputed.
b. ^ Controlled by the Houthis due to the ongoing war. Seat of government moved to Aden.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2018[edit]

Justsul (talk) 11:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

whatsup motherfockers

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 11:58, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Median hyperlink needs to be changed[edit]

The hyperlink on 'Median' under the History of the Middle East goes to the mathematical term Median, which is obviously incorrect, as it should refer to the Median people of Medes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charliemccombie (talkcontribs) 16:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done --SVTCobra (talk) 23:53, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 December 2018[edit]

Israel sits on the African tetonic plates and is undoubtedly part of the African continent, same as Egypt, as there is no such country or location named Middle East. The Middle East is a geographic construct created by Western nations to identify countries within a region that are desirous for rule by Western nation. 2605:6000:8A50:9F00:5DAB:494F:2E8:578F (talk) 00:49, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

"Middle East" - etymology[edit]

Dear all,

It might be useful to update the "Terminology" section as far as the origin of the phrase "Middle East" is concerned.

In the book Dislocating the Orient (p.210), Daniel Foliard mentions an article from 1895 in Blackwood's Magazine where Alexander Michie uses the term, almost a decade before Mahan ("Foreign Affairs," Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, 158 (962): 930). Other pre-1902 occurences are mentioned as well.

With very best wishes, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dayyanel (talkcontribs) 10:22, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Request to add link to new page[edit]

The link is Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa. A good place for it would be in the Demographics section with the other "see also" links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mh4011 (talkcontribs) 19:30, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Palestine link[edit]

change ((Palestine)) to ((State of Palestine|Palestine))

 Done Fixed, thanks! aboideautalk 14:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2019[edit]

In Gallery:

  • Change "Muscat, Oman" to "Muscat – Oman" to match rest of gallery captions
  • Change "Nicosia , Cyprus" to "Nicosia – Cyprus" to match rest of gallery captions

anthologetes (talkcontribs) 15:35, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done Sceptre (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Including unrecognized states in the list of countries[edit]

State of Palastine does have large international backing but is not a formally recognized country. Northern cyprus is only recognized by the republic of turkey. Both should be removed from the list. Chevington (talk) 17:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

  1. ^ "COUNTRY COMPARISON :: POPULATION". Retrieved 12 September 2018.
  2. ^ "GDP (current US$)". World Development Indicators. World Bank. Retrieved 12 September 2018.
  3. ^ Data refer mostly to the year 2017.[8] Selecting all countries, GDP per capita (current US$), World Bank. Accessed on 12 September 2018.
  4. ^ "COUNTRY COMPARISON :: POPULATION". Retrieved 12 September 2018.
  5. ^ "GDP (current US$)". World Development Indicators. World Bank. Retrieved 12 September 2018.
  6. ^ Data refer mostly to the year 2017.[9] Selecting all countries, GDP per capita (current US$), World Bank. Accessed on 12 September 2018.