Talk:Mikael Agricola

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Finn / Swede[edit]

This is another Finland-Swede whom the Finnish nationalists at English Wikipedia try to make into a Finn. And his name was Mikael Olofsson, not Mikael Olavinpoika (which is simply a direct translation to Finnish of his name Mikael Olofsson, Mikael Son of Olof). Den fjättrade ankan 18:08, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC) Den fjättrade ankan 18:08, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hahahahhahaaa, there WERE no Finland-Swedes before the end of the 19th century, read this: "Allt hade sin begynnelse i slutet av 1800-talet. Då var begreppet finlandssvensk obekant. I Finland talade man svenska eller finska. Det var ingenting märkvärdigt med det." (the writer is the former leader of the Swedish People's Party) So Agricola was no "Finland-Swede", but a Finn. Why do you think he was so interested in the Finnish language then??? So please, stay away from things you have absolutely no knowledge about. Don't ruin Wikipedia with you're Swedish nationalist propaganda. --Jaakko Sivonen 14:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course there were no Finland-Swedes before the end of the 19th century, there were only Swedes: Swedes (such as Mikael Agricola) living in what is today Finland but was until 1809 Sweden, and Swedes living in what is today Sweden, and also was at that time Sweden. Why he was interested in the Finnish language? Because he wanted the Finns to be able to read the Bible in their mother tongue, so he learned Finnish and so he could translate the Bible to Finnish. As simple as that. Den fjättrade ankan 16:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Please kindly submit us further evidence about Agricola's language and his parents' language, as well as in which particular socken and by (village) he was from. such information may help to determine the factual content.

I must remind you that it is of no big evidential value to know in which form his name was written in contemporary documents, since most of those were kept in Swedish anyway, and practically nothing in Finnish. Latin was the other alternative.

When having researched bunches of old church archives of Finland (for example for genealogical purposes) I have found endless number of persons having Swedish name forms ("Mikkel Olofsson") in those writings, but in cases where it is fully clear that they have been fully Finnish-speaking persons. Such facts can be known for example from the fact in which village the person lived.

Even in cases where the name happened to be a Finnish (or in Carelia, Russian-like) name, without Swedish equivalent, the priest had written it a bit oddly, like to conform to swedish language. not Marya, not Teuto, not Pasi, not Vehka (but Weck or Veck..) and of course the sveticized Natascha.

Thus, only your word that his name was "Mikkel Olofsson" instead of "Mikael Olavinpoika", is of no value. We need substantiation of that claim. Likelihoods or certainties. 22:30, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actually, this debate whether he was from Swedish-speaking home or Finnish-speaking hime, is ages old.

However, let me ask: How would Agricola, if fully Swedish, learned as fullständig (perfect) Finnish as he showed and needed when making his literary works. After all, at that time,

(1) there existed no "written Finnish". Thus, no books or likes for him to learn Finnish from. However, he collected and made "written Finnish" into books by himself.

(2) Finnish was nowhere taught.

Agricola in his school, university and later years lived in environment which used Latin and Swedish. Not Finnish. All people coming to contact with this more or less high-rankin person, had an incentive to use Swedish or Latin, not Finnish. Agricola himself had practically no incentives to learn Finnish, if he did not have a command of it already.

However, Agricola is known to have an unerred and full command of Finnish. And he needed it to make his works. He even invented new words, since there were not all needed concepts in contemporary Finnish. Words invented by him were no sveticisms, they suited rather well to Finnish language. A Swede by domestic language would probably have made sveticisms.

The answer must be, in extremely high likelihood, that he was either Finnish-speaking or fully bilingual. 23:07, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the conclusions of the IP-number above. I remove that category for now. // Habj 02:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the relevancy of what language Mikael Agricola spoke in his home. He spoke both Swedish and Finnish. I recently read in an article in Kyrkpressen that he was actually somewhat of a genious on languages. In the same article they concluded that he was probably from a home where they spoke swedish. His home village was Torstila/Torsby in Pernaja/Pernå. His father was a fisherman and his name was Olof Simonsson. His mother might have spoken finnish, but there are theories that she could have been estonian. But I don't see why his mother toungue is such an issue for so many. This competition on who spoke what in Finland is a bit sad really. (BTW, Agricolas finnish was not without errors. I don't know where people get this idea that he had "full command" of the language.) Ostrobothnian 22:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it possible to determine which language was spoken in Pernå Parish in the 16th century and thereby determine his first language? Today this area is bilingual, with majority being Swedish and minority Finnish speakers. Since the Swedish language has been on decline in Finland for (at least) the last 200 years, I would guess that the primary language in Pernå in the 16th century was Swedish. Perhaps Mikael Agricola was bilingual and had one parent speaking Finnish and the other parent speaking Swedish? The term Sweden-Finland is by the way anachronistic. Finland was a part of Sweden in the same way as Norrland, Svealand or Götaland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I wonder how anyone living before 1809 (when Finland gained its first autonomy) can be called Finnish? Neither the nation nor nationality existed back then. Of course there were people who spoke Finnish, just like there are Swedish speakers in Finland today. Why are the Finland Swedes considered Finnish? Answer: Because they live in Finland. And according to the same logic, everyone who lived in Sweden before 1809 should be considered Swedish regardless of language. Aaker (talk) 17:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Sweden sucks, Mikael was a Finn:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:33, 18 September 2012 (UTC)