Talk:Military of the Democratic Republic of the Congo

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Mi26[edit]

Is the Mi26 used by the DOC? QZXA2 16:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the IISS Military Balance 2007, the Air Force has 1 Mi-26 Halo; the IISS usually puts a little mark next to the entry if the aircraft is unservicable, and there's nothing there. This means that it might be flying, which would be a bit of a surprise for the DRC. Buckshot06 09:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Article Sandbox/Workspace[edit]

  • The planned centres were to be at N’Zumu, in the 1st Military Region; at Kitona (2nd Military Region); at Bokala and Gbadolite in the 3rd Military Region of Equateur; at Katende in the 4th Military Region of Western Kasaï; at Katenda and Lucha in the 5th Military Region of Eastern Kasaï, at Kamina and Mura 6th Military Region of Kabanga, at Luama (Kindu) in the 7th Military Region of Maniema; in the 8th Military Region of North-Kivu at Mushaki (Goma) and Nyaleke (Beni); in the 9th Military Région of Lukusa at Bunia; in the 10th Military Région of South Kivu at Luberizi.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAFR620012007?open&of=eng-COD

  • Point de situation du Brassage :

Le brassage de la 15ème Brigade intégrée s’est achevé et les 2837 hommes qui la composent attendent d’être déployés. Le brassage de la 16ème Brigade se poursuit pour les 4401 hommes présents au camp de Luberizi et devrait s’achever le 24 juin 2007. Enfin, à Kamina, 4139 hommes sont en attente du début du brassage de la 17ème Brigade. (MONUC, 29 May 2007, from http://fr.allafrica.com/stories/200705301111.html)

  • 12th and 13th Battalions of 17th Brigade - http://www.mamboafrica.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7368&Itemid=26 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Buckshot06 (talkcontribs) 20:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Resources: A key issue for the Congo's military is the lack of resources. The lack of money restricts the Military's capabilities by not allowing the Government to fund proper training, wages and weapons. This lack of resources has been an ongoing issue throughout Congolese history, despite its vast natural resources, due to inadequate governance and corruption, and increased since the U.S. cut support for the Mobutu government at the end of the Cold War. Most of the infrastructure which existed circa 1990 was destroyed during the two wars, thereby restricting the mobility and logistical ability of any new Congolese national military establishment.

Resources sub-sandbox[edit]

  • Start with Africa Research Bulletin: Economic, Financial and Technical Series and their cultural series (Africa Research Bulletin: something else). There is a newsstand magazine on African business, also.
  • If you get a day at a university library running through the last 10 years of Africa Confidential would pay off more than any thing. It's just short articles 3 columns/page, 6" of a column on some event or another from other sources, listing the sources. Sorted by country. Any university library with an electronic subscription would allow you to simply print out the 2-3 relevant pages on DRC of each issue.
  • For databases I use the ones in the economics and public health libraries at the local university.

Commanders-in-Chief sub-sandbox[edit]

Source: Histoire générale du Congo: de l'héritage ancien à la République Démocratique, De Boeck Université, 1998, Par Isidore Ndaywel è Nziem,Théophile Obenga,Pierre Salmon, p.687, via Google Books [1] ANC

  • Victor Lundula, July-Sept 1960
  • Mobutu, Col./Gen Major, Sept 1960-Nov 1965
  • Louis Bobozo, Gen Maj/Gen Lt., Nov 1965-Jul 1972

FAZ

  • Maoso Bumba D., GCA, Jul 1972 - 1977
  • Babia Zangi Malobia, GCA, Sept 1978 - 1981
  • Singa Boyenge Mosambay, General d'Armee, 1981-1985
  • Eluki, GDiv, 1985-Oct 1987
  • Lomponda wa Botende, Admiral, Oct 1987-1989
  • Manzembe Ma Ebanga, General d'Armee, 1989-91
  • Mahele Lieko Bokungu, GCA, 1991-1993
  • Eluki, GCA, 1993-1996
  • Mahele L B, GCA, 1996-Mai 1997

Listed sources: F.B. 1952:518, informations arabes

FAC units sub-sandbox, 1997-2002[edit]

Source: Prunier, From Genocide to Continental War, 2009

  • General Ndenga wa Milumba, new 4th Brigade commander of the Kivus and Maniema, p.158. Nearest ref is IRIN Bulletin no.227, August 12, 1997
  • August-September 1997 FAC in Goma & Bukavu, IRIN Bulletins 240, 243, Sept 3-8, 1997
  • Banyamulenge unit at Bukavu mutinies after being ordered to break up, p.176. No very useable refs.
  • 10th Bde sent to Kivus to restore order, p.177. No very useable refs.
  • Commander of '10th Bn,' Goma, Sylvain Mbuki, declares revolt, ref 2 p.181. Clear from other data (see main article) that 10th is 10th Bde, Goma
  • 10th Bn, 222nd Bde (Prunier appears to be wrong here: 10th Bde and 222nd Bn), 25th Bde, p.182 G. de Villers, J. Omasombo, E. Kennes, Guerre et politique: Les trente dernier mois de L.D. Kabila (aout 1998-janvier 2001) (Tervuren, Belgium, CEDAF, 2001), p.18
  • Jean-Pierre Ondekane, commander 10th Bde in Goma, June 1998. p.184. Jean-Claude Williame, Nouvelle Crise dans le Grands Lacs, Geneva, Writenet Report, August 1998. See also probably J.C. Williame 1999.
  • 6th Bde, p.232 AFP Kinshasa, April 22, 2000
  • See also incidental details p.263, 306, 324 (last is army numbers a la ICG 2006)
  • For FAZ see also Erik Kennes, 'La guerre au Congo,' in F.Reyntjens and S. Marysse, eds., L'Afrique des Grands Lacs: Annuaire 1997-98 (Paris: L'Harmattan, 1998), 247.

ANC and FAZ[edit]

Is this article a suitable place to discuss the former Congolese National Army and Zairean Armed Forces? There is a Force Publique article that discusses the immediate post-independence era of the Congolese armed forces, but there seems to be a gap for the history of the forces under Mobutu. W. B. Wilson 15:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again Mr Wilson. I have been thinking this could be a good place to put details of the former FAZ and FAC etc, but I haven't started it; there's too much to fill in on the current situation which needs doing first. Cheers Buckshot06 15:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Greetings Buckshot06. I'll add a stub section noting the origins and pointing to the Force Publique article. Cheers, W. B. Wilson 16:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. I've just removed a redundant re-re-direct at the bottom of the FP article so it now points to this page directly. Buckshot06 16:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. It may not fit well as it is with the structure of the article so please edit it as required. Cheers, W. B. Wilson 17:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Informal review[edit]

Buckshot06 has asked me to do an informal review of this article. Because I'm a pushy jerk I've also done a copyedit as well. In general, I think that this article is off to a good start and can be expanded along its current lines to reach A/FA status. The choice of topics to cover seems good, and the assessment of the military is fair and draws on highly reliable sources. Some specific comments and suggestions are:

  • The overall structure of the military needs to be outlined upfront, even if this is currently very murky. For instance, the existence of an air force isn't mentioned until almost the end of the article and it's not mentioned whether the DRC currently or has ever had a navy or Army riverine force.
  • Can anything be said about the civilian organisations which support the military? Is there or has there been a department of defence or any local defence industries?
  • The presence of foreign troops and foreign military aid missions is mentioned in the introduction, but not in the body of the article. Sections on these topics would be great.
  • It might also be worth including a dedicated section on how the military is being rebuilt, as this is a little bit buried at present.
  • More citations are needed, especially to support and illustrate statements such as 'according to some internet references' - these references should be mentioned, especially when they contradict each other.
  • the term 'brassage' needs a definition
  • it might be worth including a map showing the DRC's provinces/regions as these are probably totally obscure for most people who read the article but are frequently mentioned in the article. This kind of thing tends to be frowned on for some reason though.
  • Is a reliable list of the Army's equipment available? - I suspect not, but if it is it would be worth including in some form.
  • Is the list of Chiefs of Staff complete? If not, this should be stated.
  • Has the Army played any role in DRC politics since Mobutu Sese Seko siezed power? - eg, did it play a role in supporting his rule and choosing his successors? --Nick Dowling 09:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Air Force aircraft and navy organisation[edit]

Information in the most recent Jane's publications conflicts slightly with with the information on the DRC's air force and navy in the article:

  • Jane's World Air Force's 2007 can only confirm that the air force has four aircraft in service (2 C-130, 1 DHC-5D, 1 Boeing 727) and a unknown number of Su-25s (no more than 8 in the air force's fleet following losses), C-47s, MB-326GBs and possibly some MiG-23s. It is also stated that the aircraft which aren't currently in service are generally in so poor a state that they couldn't possibly be repaired. I think that the table on the air force needs an extra column which draws on one or more of the available estimates of the Air Force's actual strength to highlight the fact that deliveries don't equal aircraft in service as is discussed in the article's text.
  • Jane's all the World's ships states that the navy is organised into four commands which in turn come under the command of the Army. The commands are: Matadi (coastal), Kinshasa (riverine), Kalemie (Lake Tanganyika) and Goma (Lake Kivu). Is this a better source to draw on than the source which states that there are 5 naval districts? - I have no real affection for Jane's (which suffers from sloppy and lazy editing IMO) so it's quite possible that this information is out of date or wrong. --Nick Dowling 03:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV[edit]

"this process is being hampered by corruption, the near-impotence of the government, and inadequate donor coordination." Doesn't seem very neutral. 207.138.98.253 (talk) 13:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It's cited and fair. The DRC is pretty chaotic. --Nick Dowling (talk) 23:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I would be interested if the contributor had a source that said otherwise. Neutral does not mean "nice," it simply means it represents various viewpoints rather than favoring a particular one. Not even the combatants themselves seem to be saying other than this. --Blechnic (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Other sources[edit]

This is a good article, and it was nice to see it on the main page of Wikipedia. But the authors missed tons of information about combatant forces in Central Africa published in scholarly economic and less scholarly business journals. Every issue of the various African economic journals I read carries something about DCR and usually about the fighting in the East because of the mineral riches of the area and current interests and activities in exploiting them. If you are interested in more information on this topic, try doing area-limited scholar and economic database searches. --Blechnic (talk) 06:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Brassage[edit]

Do you have an English language source that uses this word? And "mixage?" Can you quote specific passages that show this is the proper use in English of this word? It makes sense in context in translation when translated from the French, but not when used in English. It seems you are just discussing the various stages of disarmament in DRC, but then it seems only the final stage every time this word is used. It is very confusing. --Blechnic (talk) 23:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I can find it used as "brassage center" also, but this seems also just to be pidgin. --Blechnic (talk) 23:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Brassage is indeed the final step of the DDR process; it is the integration of up to six factions' troops within a new integrated brigade. As used in English, it is all over the DDR/technical literature, but if you want a specific cite, see Cite 31, the 2006 International Crisis Group SSR report. The 2006 ICG report, which I believe I linked in the bibliography, is the best single source for the FARDC. For mixage's use in English, see Cites 32 and 33. Happy further reading! Buckshot06 (talk) 03:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, reintegration is the final step in English, of the DDR process, whether mixage or brassage . I downloaded Cite 31, the ICG SSR report and they do not have a single instance of "brassage," but do use the terms integration and reintegration a total of 80 times. [2] Citation 32[3] uses the term a single time in italics because it is a foreign word in English (it's archaic and means something completely different in English than its meanings in French). In citation 33 "brassage" is used 13 times and italicized each time to indicate that it is a foreign term, not English.[4] "Mixage" is likewise usually italicized, although, once in block capitals it is not.
This is an English language general encyclopedia and its readers should be able to look up words in an English language dictionary, but in this instance they cannot because it is a French word with Congolese militaristic jargon nuances. As it is used in the security sector it can be used and defined in the article, but since it is jargon, it should be rigidly defined, and probably the English word should be used instead in most instances. The military and private security communities and international aid communities extensively use jargon and mixed-language jargon in particular because they work in unusual circumstances and in mixed command groups. I've sat around with people and had conversations in of English, French, Italian and German with admixtures of single words that serve their purposes across all languages. As it stands in this article, though, rather than explaining what is going on, the article simply leaves the English language reader wondering what is meant by brassage. Going to a dictionary is useless.
Please consider clarifying by simply using the terms integration and reintegration, and putting brassage in italics like your sources do, and explaining that the process of reintergration is either of putting Nkunda's troops into the FARDC or of breaking up fighting units after disarming and demobilizing and building a newly integrated army out of troops once heavily divided along ethnic, political and regional lines. This gives the reader the definition of these terms, along with their proper usage in the securities sector, and explains what is going on with the reintegration of troops in the DCR to form a single fighting force for the current government. Rather than what is happening in the article now where the use of the term brassage clouds out the actual content, and appears to fail to grasp the meaning. --Blechnic (talk) 04:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll italic-erise it, and work through your other recommendations. Of course, you're correct, reintegration is the final DDR step; I was meaning the final step for those destined for the FARDC. How do those changes look? Buckshot06 (talk) 05:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Huge inconsistency[edit]

Wikipedia maintain that the population of Kongo is near 5 mill in 2005. But they maintain 11 mill in military: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_the_Congo

OktoberStorm (talk) 04:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The Republic of the Congo and Democratic Republic of the Congo are two different countries. Also, the number of people who are available for military service in a country is very different from that country's active military personnel. - BanyanTree 04:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Biographies[edit]

  • General Gabriel Amisi Kumba, or 'Tango Fort' has been reported as deputy commander of the Congo military. Buckshot06 (talk) 16:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
  • As the Chief of Staff of the ground forces (infantry), Gen Gabriel Amisi Kumba aka Tango-Fort is the number two most senior officer of the FARDC, after Gen Didier Etumba, the General Chief of Staff. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:08, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Gabriel Amisi Kumba Yala/Tango Four [5]

In late November 2004, wide-scale violence broke out again. General Nkunda's men were reinforced by Rwandan soldiers and they initiated attacks across North Kivu. However, FARDC reinforcements were quickly airlifted in and after they joined forces with the Bahunde Mayi-Mayi militias, they were able to recapture control of Walikale Territory. General Gabriel Amisi, the FARDC's Ground Forces Commander who once fought alongside General Nkunda in the 2nd Congo War, cut a deal with the Mayi-Mayi to allow the cargo flights to Goma to resume. In exchange, the Mayi-Mayi were allowed to share in the profits. The deal cut out FDLR/FOCA, who previously had a profit-sharing agreement with the FARDC in Walikale Territory. Without a source of income, some of the FDLR/FOCA soldiers migrated to northern Masisi Territory and Lubero Territory. FDLR/FOCA was not the only one who was upset with General Amisi seizing de facto control of Bisie. According to an internal company document I received from a mining firm that used to operate in North Kivu, Modeste ordered a hit on General Amisi and even fronted $15,000 for the job. However, a loyal intelligence agent leaked the plot to General Amisi. Mr. Makabuza reportedly found out that the plot was leaked and he fled to Rwanda before any retaliatory action was taken against him.


Amisi [is a] former Mobutu officer from Maniema, recruited into the AFDL in 1996, then joined the RCD in 1998, eventually rising to the head of logistics for the RCD (hence the name Tango Four: the head of logistics was the T4). He became famous for helping command the repression of a mutiny in Kisangani in May 2002. He was later promoted to head of the 8th military region in Goma and then, eventually, to become commander of the land forces in Kinshasa.

Amisi is the owner of Maniema Aviation, as well as of the AS Maniema Union soccer club in Kindu. There have been many reports linking him through Col Etienne Bindu, the chief of staff for the 8th military region, to mining operations in North Kivu, in particular to the operations of Colonel Samy Matumo, the former commander of the 85th Brigade that occupied Bisie mine for several years. So this might not be his first expedition into the land of mineral rackets.

Source: Congo Siasa, November 2010

Le général Mbuza Mabe est décédéà Johannesburg en Afrique du Sud[edit]

Kinshasa, 20/05/2009 / Politique Mort du Général Félix Mbuza Mabe Nkumu Embanze à Johannesburg en Afrique du Sud où ce haut officier des FARDC commandant de la base de Kitona dans la province du Bas-Congo suivait des soins en ytraite.ent d’une longue maladie

Le général Félix Mbuza Mabe Nkumu Embanze n’est plus. Il est décédé la nuit de mardi à mercredi à Johannesburg en Afrique du Sud, des suites d’une longue maladie. A sa mort, il était commandant de la base de Kitona, dans la province du Bas-Congo, rapporte radiookapi.net

Originaire du district de la Mongala en province de l’Equateur, Félix Mbuza Mabe était diplômé en criminologie de l’école royale militaire d’Anvers en Belgique. Cet officier des forces armées zaïroises sous le régime Mobutu fut d’abord instructeur puis commandant à l’école de formation des commandos de Kotakoli.

Il deviendra successivement officier de la garde rapprochée du Président Mobutu, commandant de la 41è brigade commando de choc de Kisangani et commandant de la Région militaire de Matadi dans le Bas-Zaïre. Il se rapprochera de Laurent-Désiré Kabila qui le nomme le 4 septembre 1999 commandant de la 6e région militaire couvrant le Kasaï Occidental et le Bandundu. De ce fait, il lui sera conféré le grade de Général de brigade.

Le 24 février 2002, Mbuza Mabe est nommé commandant de la 8è région militaire au Sud Kivu. Il remplace le 10 mars 2004 et provisoirement, le commandant Prospère Nabyolwa et confirme sa notoriété d’un grand combattant lors de la prise de Bukavu par les éléments de Laurent Nkunda et Mutebutsi entre le 26 mai et le 8 juin 2004. Jusqu’à sa mort, Félix Mbuza Mabe Nkumu Embanze exerçait les fonctions de commandant de la base militaire de Kamina, poste qu’il occupe depuis le 7 juillet 2005. Il était âgé de 65 ans. Le progra..e de rapatrie.ent de la dépouille du défunt ainsi que de ses obsèques sera annoncé plus tard.

Also: UN ENVOY HAILS CONGOLESE MOVE TO PURSUE RAPE CASES AGAINST TOP MILITARY OFFICERS, New York, Mar 29 2011 7:10PM

  • Mustapha Benchenane, Les armées africaines: préface d'edmond jouve, Publisud, 1983 - History - 221 pages

Paul MUKOBO Mundende[edit]

Le général Paul MUKOBO Mundende7: cet officier général des FAZ est rangé par ses pairs d’armes parmi les rares meilleurs officiers-généraux, si pas le meilleur, que la RDC n’a jamais connu. Il est un des premiers africains avec entre autres le colonel OMBA Pene Djunga, les généraux ELUKI, IPOMA, ILELA, VUADI… qui ont été admis à la prestigieuse académie militaire belge ERM. Il a connu une riche carrière militaire en dents de scie et semée d’embûches sous le règne de Mobutu, l’ayant conduit à de nombreuses relégations, victime de la tribalisation des FAZ. Commandant de la division KAMANYOLA avec le grade de général de brigade de 1982 à 1984. Lors de l'éclatement de la deuxième guerre de MOBA en 1984, appelée MOBA II, il fut désigné commandant des opérations au cours desquelles ses troupes portèrent un coup fatal aux éléments armés de LD Kabila. Il devint ensuite commandant de la Ière Région Militaire (Katanga) puis chef d'état-major de la force terrestre de 1985 à 1987. Chef d'état-major adjoint chargé de la logistique des Forces armées zaïroises (FAZ), avec le grade de général de division, il est promu, en 1993, général de corps d'armée. Peu après avoir été quasi le seul, aux côtés du général Mahele à rétablir l’ordre et l’encasernement des militaires, après la vague des pillages de 1991 et de 1993. Commandant de la 7ème Région militaire à Mbandaka et gouverneur de la province de l'Équateur en 1997, la seule à ne pas être tombée entre les mains des troupes de l’AFDL avant la prise de Kinshasa, le 17 mai 1997. Ce qui servit de zone de retranchement à Mobutu avant son exil pour le Maroc, puis de terrain propice pour le MLC. Personnellement, c’est le type d’homme encore capable de permettre à la RDC de réussir une profonde et efficiente réforme des Services de Sécurité ; si on veut un jour croire en l’avènement d’une armée réélement Nationale et républicaine en RDC.

Objection to File:Congolese soldier.jpg[edit]

Originally posted at Wikipedia talk:Help desk -- John of Reading (talk) 13:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

ERROR IN THE PAGE CONCERNING CONGOLESE ARMY

DEAR EDITORS, THE PHOTOS OF CONGOLSES SOLDIERS IN THE PAGE OF OUR BELOVED ENCYCLPOPEDIA IS WRONG. LOOK THOSE SOLDIERS IN THE BORDER NEXT TO A CAR ARE NOT CONGOLESE BUT TUTSI RWANDESE. PLEASE REMOVE THEM SOON AS YOU CAN. IT IS UNACCEPTABLE THAT AMERICAN IRAKIAN SOLDIERS MAY BE CALLED AMERICAN SOLDIERS. PLEASE HELP US REMOVE THEM SOON AS YOU CAN. LOOK AT GENERAL KISEMPIA AND YOU WILL SEE THE FACE IS DIFFERENT. REMOVE THEM PLEASE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.146.231.51 (talk) 12:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

There is further background at [6], including another photo of the same group of soldiers.

Kpama Baramoto[edit]

"Among the dozens of Mobutu cronies living in South Africa are a former army chief of staff, Gen. Kpama Baramoto Kata. The general emerged from the notoriously corrupt Mobutu era with a vast fortune, and he now lives with his wives and children in Johannesburg's northern suburbs. Baramoto's telephone number is listed; a woman who answered Tuesday said the general had gone to Cape Town on business. Baramoto allegedly planned to use his wealth to fund a last-ditch effort to prop up Mobutu's regime with a small army of South African mercenaries."

Spelling labourious[edit]

Labourious is an old British English spelling no longer in the Collins Dictionary. So I've changed it to laborious which is. Feel free to revert but would be interested to know what dictionary supports the spelling. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 13:49, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Put "today" at the start and "History" at the end[edit]

My thoughts are that if I looked up "DRC Army" I'd want to know about the army of today - how many soldiers - how well trained - where are they deployed/equipped, etc etc. To wade through the "Once upon a time there was a king in Belguim calle Leopold ..." So, I think that the stuff about NOW should be first and the history - even though it's fantastically fascinating - should be at the end. In fact ... I think it should be condensed and put as a separated article. Any support? Francis Hannaway (talk) 08:27, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Strong oppose. One cannot understand the reasons why the FARDC is the way it is today without the history, especially of the Force publique. Anyone who wants to scroll right down immediately can easily do so. Not all readers will want to know about today's army, and it is most logically explained in chronological order. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)