Talk:Mind–body interventions

Merges

Mind-body interventions during labor and Mind-body interventions during pregnancy should both be merged here. Famousdog (talk) 10:11, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Nobody raised any issues so I merged these two articles and NPOVed them a bit. Famousdog (talk) 12:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Concerning rewrite and dubious information

Someone went to town with about 10 template messages at the top of this article. The original writer definitely made some assumptions, but the problem is that this type of medicine, by nature, is not going to have a lot of viable scientific references. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. The article just needs a little more of the other point of view, and some better references, not to be rewritten completely.Editfromwithout (talk) 04:02, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the fact that "this type of medicine [sic] is not going to have a lot of viable scientific references" does mean it shouldn't be included on Wikipedia. Read WP:MEDRS. Since no improvements have been made in response to my tagging of this article, I'm going to start deleting content soon. Famous_dog 10:29, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

For sources that provide descriptive information (but not MEDRS research study level of sources - in other words, not for proving health benefit), we can look to the type of book that summarizes various modalities. Mirka Knaster's book Discovering the Body's Wisdom talks extensively on this subject, enough that I wasn't actually able to find an easy way to plug it as a source here (the book goes into a lot of detail and this article is extremely general in giving the big-picture overview). I hope to spend some time working on this for the Somatics article (which is being re-written by a different editor) and when that article is improved, a re-direct may be appropriate. --Karinpower (talk) 05:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

How does the list on this page relate to the Category list?

Perhaps this reveals something I don't yet understand about WP, but doesn't this page essentially duplicate the list at Category:Mind–body_interventions? There are some items missing from each of these lists, and I don't understand why this list is being maintained separately. If someone can spell this out for me, or link to an appropriate explanation, that would be appreciated.--Karinpower (talk) 05:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge from mind-body training

It's unclear how mind-body training is anything more than a synonym for mind–body interventions. One of the spam links for 2Mynds has been removed from the external links section in that article; two remain, purporting to be references. Flapjacktastic (talk) 21:51, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support merge, particularly per the claims in Mind-body training that say It is used interchangeably with the term mind-body interventions or as a subset thereof. Either way, the content should be merged into this article. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:26, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Some considerations regarding merging or keeping it separate

Let me start by clarifying that I would like to stay away from actual editing, because I have a very close connection with the subject (I developed 2Mynds). That also means I know quite a bit about mind-body interventions and mind-body training, so I am happy to contribute in this section and leave the editing to the author and others who do not have a vested interest. I agree that mind-body training could be merged into mind-body interventions. However, if that route is taken I suggest to present it not simply as a synonym, because some authors (see the Cochrane review by Gendron for scientific publications) see it as a subset - a specific type of training that alternates mind and body components. This is potentially also an argument to leave it as it is - as a short separate entry.

Two arguments to keep it separate:

1. Training is not the same as an intervention. Training is a type of intervention. For example, hypnotherapy would generally not be considered training, but it is an intervention. Similarly, prayer is considered a mind-body intervention but should not be classified as mind-body training.
2. Mind-body training, as used by some authors, is reserved for training that alternates physical and mental components (in order to train the mind under higher stress conditions). This is described in the mind-body training article. This is different from virtually all mind-body interventions, which train physical and mental components simultaneously, i.e. yoga, taichi, autogenic training, biofeedback or mind-body interventions that solely train mental components, like imagery, and meditation.

In summary, even though there is overlap, there are logical considerations to see mind-body training as a subset of, and not simply a synonym for, mind-body interventions. If this can be presented well under mind-body interventions and if merging would not hinder finding mind-body training as a topic, I believe it can also make sense to merge. AlwaysLearning (talk) 07:53, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding references

I believe the reference to the online link about mind-body training on the 2Mynds site is informative (reference 5). It explains in detail how mental and physical components are alternated and how physical components are used to introduce stress and increased heart rate. There are not many other public references that explain this. However, I agree that reference 11 is not needed. It also seems that it is not referenced in the text. The same is true for reference 12. Again, because I want to stay as impartial as possible and not get involved in editing, I will not make edits, but I do concur that references 11 and 12 can be taken out. AlwaysLearning (talk) 07:53, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support merge - Article was previously merged, then un-merged. The distinction between training and intervention is negligible and could easily be covered within an article. As noted above, this article even states the terms are used interchangeably. Hugsyrup (talk) 10:15, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support merge I appreciate User:Leonbax's input above (and their good practice in not editing the article directly); it appears that a merge could be done without burying or misrepresenting either facet. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 21:12, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support —PaleoNeonate – 04:45, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support merge - I also made it way easier to actually do the merge if a consensus is reached. I replaced the strange referencing scheme with proper inline citations, scrubbed the promotional material (Although I did leave in the reference 5 referring to 2Mynds, albeit in a less promotional sentence), did some copyediting, and moved quite a few things around.Rap Chart Mike (talk) 18:49, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I think there is a consensus? I'm going to leave this alone over the weekend but if there are no objections by Monday I will go ahead and make the merge, currently don't have another project in mind. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

This will be ready to go in the next day or so but I want to have time for further comments to lessen the chance of a reversion. before I do the mechanical merge stuff I am doing the actual editing of the content here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rap_Chart_Mike/sandbox and if you all would like you can check that out and leave an concerns on my talk page. As stated it'll be a day or two before the editing there is complete but that's where the process is occuring so that it can be a complete move rather than hacking the thing apart here. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 15:44, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Main thrust of merge performed. I will continue pecking away at the minutia of copyediting and tweaking the sections but I think this ia decent sythesis and rewrite of the material. Rap Chart Mike (talk) 14:26, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe the integration of mind-body training into mind-body interventions by Rap Chart Mike represents a big improvement. Again, I don't want to get involved in editing because I am too close to the subject, but I do have two comments / suggestions:

1. I think everybody, especially those with medical background, will agree that interventions are not the same as training. Interventions can be undergone passively (medications, surgery), while training requires an autonomous and active component. Interventions are characterized by an intent to influence an outcome - in epidemiology we call them determinants of outcomes. If they do influence the outcome, they alter our prognosis of that outcome. Training, if it is aimed at changing an outcome, can therefore be an intervention. However, there are many other things that are interventions that are not training. Thus, mind-body training, if defined properly, should be seen as a subset of mind-body interventions. Unfortunately, many of my colleagues in the medical field do not care as much about semantics and ontology as I do, so you will find plenty of papers in which MBT is used interchangeably with MBI. However, many people using the terms wrongly doesn't make them right. It would be nice if a little more nuance regarding this could be seen in the definition section of the MBI wikipedia entry.
2. Reference 30, referring to the 2Mynds online article that explains why alternating mental and physical components makes mind-body training more effective (if the objective is mental skill development) is incorrectly cited as Afrikaans. Probably an easy fix.

Again, I think the MBI entry has improved and the MBT merge is a good solution to the duplicity. AlwaysLearning (talk)

Source

The source give me warning plus it is not sufficient IMO:

"In the 2017 pro-use of mind-body treatments, the documentary Heal directed by Kelly Noonan Gores states "that our thoughts, beliefs, and emotions have a high impact on our health and ability to heal." "

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

References

181.118.137.64

@181.118.137.64 and Willondon: let's discuss about the pseudoscientific claim here. In my opinion, labeling pseudoscientific to the whole idea is incorrect, and 181.118.137.64 have to provide sources why they think it is pseudoscientific. As 181.118.137.64 is the party that made change, I will revert to stable version first. Please remember the WP:3RR rules, only 3 reverts/day is allowed. SunDawntalk 05:46, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Oops, I guess we had the same idea at the same time. Great minds... _signed, Willondon (talk) 05:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Is pseudo-science relevant to this article?

One editor favours calling Mind-body interventions pseudoscience in the lede [1]. Granted, MBI falls under alternative medicine, which covers plenty of things that are pseudo-scientific, but that's not the same thing as non-scientific. The first three mentioned, yoga, tai chi, and Pilates are not pseudo-scientific, because they don't claim to be based on science or evidence-based medicine, as some other therapies are. So you can't cover all of mind-body interventions with the same brush as some specific instances of it. In favouring calling it pseudo-scientific, they draw on the Pseudoscience article with "often characterized by contradictory, exaggerated or unfalsifiable claims; reliance on confirmation bias rather than rigorous attempts...". This doesn't apply to many of the things discussed in this article. I don't think this article needs a prominent mention of pseudoscience, broadly applied, or any mention at all. _signed, Willondon (talk) 05:49, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed with your arguments. Yoga, tai-chi, etc. did not claim to be based on science, and by adding the pseudoscientific claim it gave the wrong impression that yoga etc. are also pseudoscientific, which they are not. SunDawntalk 06:09, 14 February 2022 (UTC)