Talk:Mahatma Gandhi

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Raghupathi Raghava Raja Ram[edit]

Hi everyone. I am too new to Wikipedia to make any suggestions or big edits. But while passing time and reading many talk pages of big articles, I have read the chats on this page. I just feel like telling this. As many of you may know, the first thing that comes to the mind of every Indian when he hears the name Gandhiji is "Raghupathi Raghava Raja Ram.. Ishwar Allah tero nam, sab ko sanmati de bhagavan". I am really not exaggerating. That is the most remembered message of Gandhiji in India. It was also one of the most favorite bhajans of Gandhiji. It used to be a part of his daily prayers.[1] It was sung by him and his followers during Salt March also.[2] On Gandhi Jayanthi it is the first thing that is played in all schools, colleges, offices, other public places etc in India. It is often played during national ceremonies also, as the symbol and salute for Gandhiji. (Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram at Beating Retreat on Rajpath) It has been always used as a reference to Gandhiji, also in so many Indian movies and dramas. But this page does not mention this song anywhere. It is also labelled as good article. Someone please mention this thing. I asked Tyler Durden to do this, but he said that he is not interested and asked me only to mention. He is always lazy for everything, but I cannot edit this big page because there is this page lock for new users like me. I still cannot do this nicely also. So somebody please mention this one thing for me when you are free. Thank you for your time. Signature: Marla Durden (talk) 11:08, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

HI Marla Durden and welcome to Wikipedia! I am not Indian and I don't really know much about Gandhi so I have no idea whether what you are saying is correct. But if you want to say that this song is very relevant to him, you will need to provide secondary sources that say that it is (as opposed to sources saying that it was one of his favourite songs, or that it was played during a national ceremony.) Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 13:16, 22 June 2017 (UTC) ────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Absolutelypuremilkif you are interested to add it to the article, here are some secondary sources.
"Gandhiji will be remembered as great saint, social reformer, truthful and religious person. "Raghupati Raghav Raja Ram Patit Pavan sita Ram" will be in the core of heart of all Indians and other communities."
"And while contemporary Hindu militants may promote an exclusivist and chauvinistic image of Rama-rajya, still more familiar to most north Indians is the conception of Rama articulated in the familiar bhajan text:
Raghupati raghava raja Ram patita pabana Sitaram
Ishvar Allah tero nam, sab ko sammati de bhagwan.
(King Rama of the house of Raghu, savior of the fallen.
Whether your name is Ishvar Or Allah, let everyone give respect.)"
"Interviews conducted in Noakhali in April and November 2000 found residents retaining precise memories of Gandhi — his shaven head, pocket watch, vigorous walking, his drinking of goat's milk, and work as a doctor. Recollections always mentioned 'his granddaughters' as also his work for Hindu Muslim peace. The memory of him seemed to be fresh and near the top of people's minds, and many recalling him spontaneously recited or sang 'Raghupati Raghav Raja Ram ... Ishwar Allah Tere Naam'."
"The day (Gandhi Jayanthi) is marked by prayer and tributes to Mahatma Gandhi. An all-religion meeting is held at Rajghat, the samadhi of Gandhiji in New Delhi, which marks Gandhiji's respect for all the religions and communities. Verses and prayers are read out from the holy books of all the religions. Gandhiji's favourite song, Raghupati Raghava Rajaram is invariably sung at all the meetings associated with him. Gandhi Jayanti is observed in all government and non-government forums all over the country."
"Gandhi Jayanti is a national holiday in India to honor the life and work of Gandhi, celebrated on October 2, Gandhi's birthday. The term jayanti means "jubilee." Many commemorative ceremonies, festivities, and prayer services pay tribute to Gandhi and nonviolence. On this day, political leaders often visit Raj Ghat, Gandhi's memorial in New Delhi. One of Gandhi's favorite devotional songs, titled "Raghupati Raghav," is often heard."
"This tradition of devotion is carried on in modern times most obviously by figures like Ramakrishna Paramhansa and Gandhi.For instance, his famously favorite bhajan, "Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram," contains an evocation of the same principle, "isvara allah tere nam, sabko sanmati de bhagvan" — isvara and allah are your names grant everyone good intention/faith."
"It is now fashionable to do interfaith prayers. It was dangerous in '47. And this interfaith prayer of his (Gandhi): 'Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram, Patita Pavana Sita Ram.' These two verses are from Tulsidasji. Then the ashram community of Gandhi added two verses of an extraordinary kind: 'Ishvara Allah Tere Nam, Sabko Sanmati De Bhagvan.' Now, 'Raghupati Raghava' it means that the divine has form. Raghupati, he is from the dynasty of Raghu. And he is not only male, he is also a female. He is the divine with form and with attributes—'patita paavana', that's an attribute. So the whole notion of the divine with form and attributes, that is announced.
Ishvara, in the Hindu tradition, dissenting traditions and even mainstream traditions, is mostly used for the nirakara (formless) conception of the divine. In the Arya Samaj, you will find this. You will find it in other traditions also. I imagine in the Lingayat tradition also you will find Ishvara used more to denote the nirakara. And Allah, of course. So Ishvara Allah are also tere naam. Now I want to suggest the advaitin import of the 'tere' , your names. 'Tattvamasi, Shvetaketu.' He is saying to the self that Ishvara Allah are also your names. Each one of you. There have not been many prayer meetings like that in this world. Raghupati Raghava Raja Ram, Patita Pavana Sita Ram. Tulsidasji is right. Ishvara Allah Tere Nam. So,that is the divine, without form. But with attributes, the attribute of mercy, the attribute of compassion. This is Koran, this is the Bible, this is Sikhism, this is everything. It's also Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj. Just because something is more recent doesn't mean it is less important. Just because something is very old doesn't mean it's more important. It's the idea that's manifested. And he includes this, and then finally, Sabko Sanmati De Bhagvan. Now 'sanmati' in Hindi, in common usage, means goodwill. But it is sat plus mati, isn't it? 'Sat' is reality, not satya, which can be truth about reality. 'Satmati' is an orientation, is a reality orientation, that's self-realization also. 'Sanmati' is self-realization, it's Svaraj. Sabko Sanmati De Bhagvan. So, that's a composite prayer. So he doesn't give all this up."
Amitabh Bachchan, who plays a Gandhian in the film (Satyagraha (film)), says the director's vision makes him feel patriotic. "We have all lived with certain songs we will never forget. There are some songs that every nation has, which are like anthems for them. Raghupati Raghav Raja Ram is one such. All these songs are ingrained in us and every time we hear it, we get goosebumps," says Bachchan.

202.62.86.30 (talk) 15:03, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Rajendra Kumar Sharma (7 January 2016). India at a Glance. Partridge Publishing India. p. 9. ISBN 978-1-4828-6835-7. 
  2. ^ David Ludden (April 1996). Contesting the Nation: Religion, Community, and the Politics of Democracy in India. University of Pennsylvania Press. p. 128. ISBN 0-8122-1585-0. 
  3. ^ Rajmohan Gandhi (2006). Gandhi: The Man, His People, and the Empire. University of California Press. p. 567. ISBN 978-0-520-25570-8. 
  4. ^ K.R. Gupta & Amita Gupta (2006). Concise Encyclopaedia of India. Atlantic Publishers & Dist. p. 1004. ISBN 978-81-269-0639-0. 
  5. ^ Ellen Mahoney (1 August 2016). Gandhi for Kids: His Life and Ideas, with 21 Activities. Chicago Review Press. p. 365. ISBN 978-1-61373-125-3. 
  6. ^ Alfred Stepan; Charles Taylor (11 February 2014). Boundaries of Toleration. Columbia University Press. p. 264. ISBN 978-0-231-53633-2. 
  7. ^ Ramchandra Gandhi (22 May 2015). The Seven Sages: Selected Essays. Penguin Books Limited. p. 113. ISBN 978-93-5214-016-9. 
  8. ^ "Gandhiji’s Raghupati Raghav modified for 'Satyagraha' - Times of India". The Times of India. 

Allegations about racism[edit]

There seems to be a concerted effort to conceal the fact that Ghandi has been accused of racism by a number African academics. Per WP:CENSOR, we should include this information even if it we find it offensive. The sources for this section all meet WP:RS. If you feel otherwise then explain here. ReusGang (talk) 10:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@ReusGang: The article already covers racism allegations in the Africa-related sections. There is no need to repeat. Al Jazeera, other newspapers / blogs / opinion columns / tabloids are not WP:HISTRS and we must rely on high quality, peer reviewed / scholarly reliable publications as sources for this article. If you find WP:RS that state something new and not summarized already, we can include it. But, please avoid edit warring over allegations based on non-HISTRS sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:25, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch:, I am suggesting the addition of the following text:
"In 2016, a group of Ghanaian academics, students and artists called for the removal of a statue of Mahatma Gandhi from a university campus. They accused Gandhi of being racist towards black people by holding the view that Indians were higher than them." This is sourced from The Washington Post and Al Jazeera. These sources are not "tabloids" or "blogs" but mainstream news agencies. They certainly fulfill the conditions of WP:RS. If you think otherwise then provide your reasons here.
Further, you quote WP:HISTRS, yet this is not relevant here as we are not talking about a historical incident but a recent event in that Ghanaian academics have accused Ghandi of racism. Also, WP:HISTRS is not a policy but an essay and essays are only for advice.
I have also suggested adding the following:
"This view was also held by two South African professors Ashwin Desai and Goolam Vahed who claimed that Gandhi described black Africans as “savage,” “raw” and living a life of “indolence and nakedness”. Gandhi also demanded separate entrances for blacks and Indians at the Durban post office while he was living in South Africa". This is sourced from The Washington Post. Again, there is no reason to remove the information as the source is reliable. Further, the above is found in the following book: The South African Gandhi: Stretcher-Bearer of Empire, Stanford University Press, pp.37-44. Again, this is reliable.
The article at present makes little mention of the fact that Ghandi "not only rendered African exploitation and oppression invisible, but was, on occasion, a willing part of their subjugation and racist stereotyping" Ref: The South African Gandhi: Stretcher-Bearer of Empire, Stanford University Press, pp.22. It is a key point in Ghandi's views whilst he was in South Africa and ought not to be censored. What reasons do you have to remove the above? ReusGang (talk) 04:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
ReusGang: Ashwin Desai and Goolam Vahed source states a lot of things, and we cannot cherrypick and quote them out of context. NPOV is important. This article already cites and summarizes Desai and Vahed. It already states the part "his [Gandhi] behaviour was one of being a willing part of racial stereotyping and African exploitation.[75]" The article does not censor. There is no need to repeat. No, newspaper sources are not reliable as sources of history / scholarship. Yes, they can be reliable source of news and recent developments. Please see the following note from admin Nyttend, which I copy paste from a wall of text elsewhere:
Be careful with newspapers/etc as sources
Ian.thomson saw my comments elsewhere and asked me to chime in here. Journalists virtually never have scholarly training in history/anthropology/ethnography/etc. — they're generalists as far as this kind of thing goes, not knowing more than what's needed for background purposes, and as such we mustn't consider them reliable sources for such fields. Exceptions can exist, of course, and we can't discount a journalist merely because of his job (e.g. he could be an avocational anthropologist so dedicated to the field that he's a member of a learned society), but even then we should only trust his writings if they've gotten reviewed by other experts; the most scholarly journalist will have his newspaper writeups reviewed by nobody except the newspaper's editors, whom again we can trust to know a lot about news reporting but we can't trust to know much of anything about "olds" reporting. We can take newspaper reports as authoritative if we're writing a middle school report for our teachers, but encyclopedia writing demands better sources: whether they're written by professional academics, journalists with a lot of experience in scholarly work, or anyone else, they need to have gone through a scholarly review process. Of course, all this applies if there's no significant dispute; a faithful adherence to WP:NPOV will demand that we use the best sources from (or about) each position, and we can trust a journalist to report on the rise of a new popular movement that advocates a different perspective on such-and-such an idea, but journalists being primary sources in such situations, we shouldn't use them to interpret something about the different perspective. – Nyttend
HISTRS is an essay, a good one. It is consistent with wikipedia policies. Feel free to take this to RSN. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: You claimed that "Ashwin Desai and Goolam Vahed source states a lot of things, and we cannot cherrypick and quote them out of context". Can you explain how I have "cherrypicked" or quoted them "out of context"? My summary is taken directly from the book The South African Gandhi: Stretcher-Bearer of Empire which is published by Stanford University Press and ties in with summaries by journalists in The Washington Post and also the official Stanford University Press summary of the book which states that: "Ashwin Desai and Goolam Vahed unveil a man who, throughout his stay on African soil, stayed true to Empire while showing a disdain for Africans. For Gandhi, whites and Indians were bonded by an Aryan bloodline that had no place for the African. Gandhi's racism was matched by his class prejudice towards the Indian indentured." So no, this isn't cherry picking - it's an accurate statement taken from academia. Further, you haven't actually given a policy reason for it's removal. If you have a policy reason then please provide it here. Likewise, if you think that this is not WP:NPOV then please explain. You cannot simply make an accusation without providing evidence.
You also state that, "No, newspaper sources are not reliable as sources of history / scholarship." I didn't claim that they were so this is irrelevant. Then you state that "Yes, they can be reliable source of news and recent developments." Which is precisely what I am doing. It is a recent development that Ghandi has been accused of racism by academics. I am using the newspaper articles to show that "In 2016, a group of Ghanaian academics, students and artists called for the removal of a statue of Mahatma Gandhi from a university campus. They accused Gandhi of being racist towards black people by holding the view that Indians were higher than them." Newspapers are perfectly reliable and acceptable for statements such as this. Have a look at WP:NEWSORG for details. Note this is NOT a historical statement but a statement regarding an event that took place in 2016. (i.e. recently). If you do not consider the sources reliable then I can take it RSN. Please confirm that this is your objection. ReusGang (talk) 18:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Have you read the Europeans, Indians and Africans section in this article. Doesn't the article already state this and more from Desai and Vahed, as well as other RS?Why repeat? Desai and Vahed also mention between pages 22-38 that Gandhi suffered persecution, people there called him a parasite, semi-barbarious, canker, squalid coolie, yellow man, would spit on him, etc. They and other RS also mention the years when all this happened (Gandhi was aged 24 when he wrote the legal brief using Aryan theory, for example). You created much repetition and did not include all this from Desai and Vahed. Further, NPOV requires us to summarize the different views in multiple RS, without taking sides. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:00, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2017[edit]

'Bold text'

Munesh Sonwane (talk) 03:38, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Not done: Nothing requested. Simplexity22 (talk) 05:45, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Alma Mater in Infobox[edit]

In the infobox under the "alma_mater" parameter "University College London" has been mentioned whereas in the main article no where it states Gandhi passed out from this university its quit confusing. Although he did passed out as a barrister from "Inner Temple". @Ms Sarah Welch: any help. Check his britannica biography also.--Anandmoorti (talk) 04:51, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

@Anandmoorti: See this, this and this, for more information. The infobox needs a source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: I've read but not sure what to do, should I put both "University College London" and "Inner Temple" in the infobox of alma_mater parameter or keep only "Inner Temple". Please advice me.--Anandmoorti (talk) 04:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
The Inner Temple is where the overwhelmingly unanimous majority of the sources say he became a barrister. It is true that even in Gandhi's day a Briton typically first went to college and then became a barrister. Gandhi was an Indian, in the first generation of Indians who in large numbers were studying in England. Gandhi spent one term in Samaldas College in Bhavnagar before he went away to England. Whether or not he formally went to college at UCL, went somewhere else, or took some kind of a correspondence course, UCL is mentioned nowhere in Gandhi's autobiography, in all the standard biographies of Gandhi, including that of Louis Fischer, who interviewed Gandhi, to BR Nanda's in the 1970s, to Joe Lelyveld's of a few years ago. He did take the University of London's matriculation examination (see Rajmohan Gandhi's biography) If UCL is claiming, some 120 years later, that he was formally enrolled there when he took that examination, it is really unimportant for us, because, again, the overwhelming majority of sources make no mention of UCL. Obviously, we can't mention UCL on the strength of a few blogs and by reading the tea leaves in Britannica article on the Inns of the Court. We can mention Samaldas College, where Gandhi went for one term before he left India, and the Inner Temple. In fact there is no reason why we can't mention his high school, Alfred High School, Rajkot. Perhaps we can mention the University of London instead of UCL, because we do know he took the exam. So, one possibility would be Alfred High School, Rajkot, Samaldas College, Bhavnagar, University of London, Inner Temple. UCL is a part of the University of London. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:44, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Inner Temple makes sense. I am fine with adding the rest or embedding/clarifying the rest in a ref-note. Please do cite RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:52, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree Inner Temple is fine but avoid school degree's generally alma_mater should be college or university degree. Most biography articles avoid school degrees. Thanks--Anandmoorti (talk) 05:22, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2017[edit]

39.36.71.206 (talk) 10:56, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Dark side of gandhi It was found recently that gandi raped his 17&19 year old grandniece, in 3 letter which he wrote to his brother in which he admitted that he do with his grandniece.

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DRAGON BOOSTER 11:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)