|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Monarchy article.|
|Monarchy has been listed as a level-3 vital article in Society. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as B-Class.|
|WikiProject Politics||(Rated B-class, Top-importance)|
|Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team / Vital|
- 1 Update Map
- 2 North Korea: Communist Monarchy
- 3 Organization of "current monarchies"
- 4 Map is wrong
- 5 "Monarchia stanowa" in English
- 6 Moanarchy vs. Dictatorship
- 7 Flimsy definition
- 8 Bhutan
- 9 Cool to have a comparison of wealth between Kingdoms
- 10 Rule king/queen monarch
- 11 Empire of Ghana
- 12 Reigning until death or abdication
Why is Asiana the map of jarod? I think this version is better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Monarchies.png
North Korea: Communist Monarchy
Perhaps North Korean should also be listed within this article hundred the heading of communist monarchy.:
"I'm a sociologist, by discipline. Or indiscipline, do I hear you sneer? True, my subject has its share of what one eminent sociologist, Garry Runciman, has called attitude and platitude. Plenty of obfuscating jargon, too. Nor is it half as trendy as when I first got hooked, back in 1968 - when I mixed it up with Marxism. These days, subjects like psychology, history and even economics (despite our present discontents) are more highly regarded than sociology.
But my trade has its uses too, as I shall now try to demonstrate. Take Kim Jong-eun, newly crowned dauphin of North Korea. A communist monarchy: that's a strange beast indeed, and a contradiction in terms. But sociology, I contend, may shed some light here. What is going on? How on earth did it come to this? And can such a peculiar system survive?
Communist monarchy Communist monarchy: what a grotesque paradox. Yet there is a double logic to this. First, at the end of the day who can you trust? Especially in a culture that prizes filial piety, your own family looks the best bet. Kim Jong-il certainly thinks so, promoting not only his son but his sister - Kim Kyong-hui also becomes a full Politburo member - and of course her husband Jang Song-taek, now an alternate Politburo member as well as a vice-chair of the National Defense Commission (NDC), the highest executive body of state outranking the Cabinet.
Second: In a state barely 60 years old, but preceded by centuries of Confucian monarchy and (more immediately) four decades of emperor-worship under Japanese occupation (1905-45), keeping it in the Kim family presses powerful buttons. Or to put it more sociologically, this mode of essentially patriarchal legitimation of rulers is familiar, indeed deeply ingrained.
On October 8 Yang Hyong-sop, a veteran Politburo member aged 85, told Associated Press Television News (APTN): Our people take pride in the fact that they are blessed with great leaders from generation to generation... Our people are honored to serve the great president Kim Il-sung and the great general Kim Jong-il. Now we also have the honor of serving young general Kim Jong-eun.
He sounded deeply traditional: a loyal courtier to his kings. But North Korea's communist origins mean it can't admit it has become a monarchy, so this isn't quite enough. Both the ruler, and even more his successor, have to justify their rule in some other way. This is the third factor, and it takes two forms - or more precisely, stages.
The first is a cult of personality: originated by Stalin, extended by Mao, and pushed to its extremes by Kim Il-sung. Hey, if a guy claims absolute right to rule, he'd better be special. This is what the German sociologist Max Weber called charisma: a term which has entered the language in a looser sense. Or if he's not so special, you make up stories to pretend he is. These may be ludicrous, but woe betide anyone rash enough to giggle or cast aspersions.
Yet as Weber saw, as a mode of rule charisma has problems. Unlike traditional authority - a monarchy proper, for instance - charisma is vested in just one exceptional individual. What happens when they die? The challenge, in Weber's rather ugly term, is to routinize charisma."Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 15:11, 29 December 2011 (UTC) and 2012
Regardless of whether the position of leader of North Korea has effectively been passed down from father to son (although neither Kim Jong-Il nor Kim Jong-Un have ever been formally Head of State of North Korea; (at any rate, a monarchy doesn't have to be hereditary, it can also be elective.) he constitution states that the people are sovereign (and thus the country is a republic), rather than the sovereignty being vested in the Head of State (which would make it a monarchy). That, and the fact it's called the People's Democratic Republic of Korea.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:42, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Organization of "current monarchies"
I've done some CE on the "current monarchies" section, but I'm wondering where the justification is for this particular subdivision. In particular I would question the division into two sets of constitutional monarchies. Do we have a WP:RS authority for this division, or is it just something one of us made up? Mangoe (talk) 21:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Map is wrong
On the current map New Caledonia and Vanuatu shown as constitutional monarchies instead of Tuvalu and Tonga (I think, that Tonga remains an absolute monarchy). Please somebody exchange the map. CrazyRepublican (talk) 22:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
"Monarchia stanowa" in English
Polish wiki has an article on pl:Monarchia stanowa, defined as "a type of monarchy common to the late middle ages period, characterized by the formation of distinct social classes. In particular, the classes of nobility, priesthood and to a lesser extent, townsfolk, would gain some representation in the government, and limit the rulers powers." The direct translation of "monarchia stanowa" would be "class monarchy" (stan -> (social) class in Polish), but I am not seeing anything like this in the English sources on Google Books. Any ideas? PS. On a related note, en wiki is also missing an article on the patrimonial monarchy (pl:Monarchia patrymonialna, I redirect it to patrimonialism for the time being). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 16:01, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Moanarchy vs. Dictatorship
From the first few paragraphs of this, there appears to be no difference beetween monarchy and dictatorship. Then come charachteristics of monarchy, none of which seem to distinguish it from other governments. Dictatorship usually has a republican government behind, but what about modern constitutional monarchy. This blurs the line beetween monarchy and dictatorship. --Questions99 (talk) 10:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Some now-existing monarchies are most certainly not dictatorships.
- Queen Elizabeth II of England is a monarch, and she is a figurehead in the secular realm of power. She appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury, and he in turn is the head of the Anglican Catholic Church. As monarch, she is a constitutional officer of the British state, but has no secular power, and is in fact mainly a religious leader for the recognized denomination (the UK is an officially Christian state).
- King Juan Carlos (or King John Charles, if you wish to translate the name he assumed in office) of Spain, unlike Elizabeth II who at least has a religious investiture power, is a true figurehead. Spain is also an officially Christian state, but a Roman Catholic one rather than Anglican Catholic. The Pope assigns all other Bishops to their Dioceses ever since the Investiture Controversy back in the 1100s, and is himself elected, not appointed. This leaves the modern Monarch of Spain with no power, secular or religious, except for his symbolic significance.
- So, Queen Elizabeth II and King Juan Carlos are by no means dictators, yet they are monarchs. I hope that answers your question. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
"A monarchy is a form of government in which sovereignty is actually or nominally embodied in a single individual (the monarch).
Forms of monarchy differ widely based on the level of legal autonomy the monarch holds in governance, the method of selection of the monarch, and any predetermined limits on the length of their tenure."
By this broad definition, you could argue that all heads of state are monarchs if by another name, especially with the part about "any predetermined limits on the length of their tenure," or in other words, term limits. Even without that part, though, there are many dictators in office for life who are not traditionally considered monarchs (historical examples range from Adolf Hitler to Joseph Mobutu, and currently Robert Mugabe and others; and at the time this category would have included Emperor Augustus, despite his being often thought of today as a monarch).
With the term limits part, the definition is even more problematic. For example, the President is not referred to as a monarch, and yet he is the Head of State of the USA, and he is inarguably the very personification of Article II in the country's Constitution.
So, how do we tweak the definition of a monarch so that we don't end up including these men as monarchs: Barrack Obama, Vladimir Putin, Filipe Calderon, and others; and formerly Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Joseph Mobutu, Momar Al Kadaffi, Idi Amin, Milton Obote, Manuel Noriega, and others? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say the defining characteristic of the monarch is that they inherit the office, as opposed to acquiring it through purely political means. That doesn't mean that pure primogeniture determines who the monarch will be, but it does mean that a) the monarch can only come from a select number of individuals whose ancestry and birth has placed them within the small ruling class of the country or society in question. Even for elective monarchies (such as the Holy Roman Empire and the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth) the monarch was elected by the ruling class and elected from the ruling class, and access to the ruling class was determined by heredity: You could only be elected King of Poland if you were born to the right people. In contrast, dictators aquired power solely through conquest and/or political processes; it has nothing to do with accident of birth. --Jayron32 14:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
- In that case, shouldn't we amend the Article definition to say that a monarch must be partially hereditary if not directly so?
- Also, this makes Vatican City a non-monarchical dictatorship, on the grounds that there are no birth circumstance or social class qualifications to be Pope. On the contrary, any male Roman Catholic (in theory any male Christian) can be legally and validly elected Pope, although once elected he must be consecrated as a Bishop in order to serve. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Regardless of the fact that the title of the 1562-1791 Polish Commonwealth's Head of State was 'King', the sovereignty of it was considered to be vested in the szlachta, the Polish nobility (who claimed to represent the Polish nation as a whole) and not the King; whose power they severely circumscribed. For those reasons, it can be considered a republic rather than an elective monarchy.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:46, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Their are two historical inaccuracies about Bhutan in the article. Firstly Bhutan is mentioned as a kingdom which had never been under European subjugation. This is false as Bhutan remained a protectorate of the British Indian Empire until 1947 and secondly Bhutan is mentioned as being a Theravada Buddhist nation whereas it is actually Vajrayana Buddhist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 19:56, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Cool to have a comparison of wealth between Kingdoms
Rule king/queen monarch
- rule throne king/queen candidate, there are two options:
- only male child from the sequence; or
- the sequence child and gender sex (from above to below)
- The particulars of succession varies in each monarchy depending on which laws of succession are in place there. Anyway I am not quite sure which part of this article it is that you suggest improving, you will have to be a bit more specific. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:51, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Empire of Ghana
Reigning until death or abdication
- http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/LJ22Dg01.html "For the Kims, the weakest link is family"