Talk:Montserrat Caballé

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Where is she born?[edit]

The Article lists her birthplace as both Catalonia AND Barcelona. Somebody please clarify this. Seir Corall 02:30, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Barcelona is the capital city of the province of Catalonia in Spain -- 13:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Catalonia is not a province but an autonomous region

More specificaly, Barcelona is the capital city of the province of Barcelona wich is part of the autonomus region of Catalonia in Spain. So she was born in Barcelona an was born in Catalonia in the same maner if you are born in San Francisco you then you are born in California. (talk) 22:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project[edit]

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:14, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Non-Neutral Point of View[edit]

No doubt Caballe is one of the great sopranos of our time, and I've been lucky to play for her in the orchestral pit a couple of times. However, claims of greatnes and importance and expressions such as "world famous", "admired", "important", even when properly sourced, are highly unnencyclopedic and should not be in the article. This is the reason why I removed "admired" . (ww?) from the intro and why I will remove it again. Thank you. --Karljoos (talk) 18:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the whole introduction is not very encyclopedic. Any suggestions about how to improve it? --Karljoos (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the changes by FTGHSmith (15:59, 5 June 2009): Please try to make changes that improve the article. A good article is objective and enncyclopedic.

Her second family name is spelt 'Folc' but in the sign shown in the photograph it is 'Folch' —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Caballé is no ordinary soprano and should not be described as such - it's not gushing it's a fact and misleading not to mention it - all opera dictionnaries and encyclopedias I have consulted say so (by the way Brittanica uses the word "admired" in the article about her). --Marleau (talk) 16:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Opinion in Lead[edit]

An IP insists on putting the following sentence in the lead: "Although she sang a wide range of operas, she is best known for the bel canto repertoire, notably the works of Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti and Verdi." Previously, the lead stated Caballe's contributions to bel canto in a more neutral way: "As an exponent of the bel canto repertoire, Caballe is well-known for her interpretations of the works of Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti and Verdi." The source for the sentence does not support the "best known" opinion. I've undid the IP's changes a few times, but the IP persists. I've put a comment on the IP's Talk page and am putting this here. As I explained to the IP, even if many people agree that Caballe is "best known" for bel canto, we can't put that kind of opinion in an encyclopedia article. We don't state opinions about people. We can, when appropriate, report on opinions with sources to back up the report. I'm not reverting the IP's change for the moment because I don't want an edit war. However, unless the IP can source the opinion, I will undo the change one more time and seek a block if the IP persists.

I also note that this kind of issue has come up before with this article and hyperbole has been appropriately removed.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:28, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry but I fail to see how "best known for" can be taken as a personal opinion - it is merely stating a general fact. I wonder who is the "opiniated" one here ! -- (talk) 16:54, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Also perhaps you could explain to me the difference between "best known" and "well known" which you seem to favor !?!? -- (talk) 17:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
The previous version doesn't just say well-known, it puts it in the context of her as an exponent of the bel canto repertoire. The body of the article makes it clear that she sang many bel canto roles, which supports the proposition that she was well-known for doing so. Your statement is saying that of all the kinds of operas in which she sang, she was best known for singing bel canto. That is a much more aggressive statement. It is not supported by the source (in the lead), and it is not supported by the body. Also, if it is a "general fact" that Caballe was "best known" for singing bel canto, then you should be able to support it with a reputable source, in which case there's no problem. Otherwise, it's just your opinion - and even perhaps the opinion of many others - that it's a "fact". Wikipedia is not supposed to function as a vehicle for expressing the opinions of its editors.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:40, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
"Aggressive statement" I can't believe this ! Your explanation sound more like pettiness to me than serious editing. Anyway I will not push this any further for it is too silly. -- (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm going to assume that by not pushing it any further, you mean it's not worth fighting over and will permit me to reinstate the original language of the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It means that you obviously think you are right and that I am wrong. I disagree with your explanations, I do not find them valid. My phrase gives a brief overview of Caballé's career which is discussed in more details in the article and in no way does it express a personal opinion. Yours can easily mislead a reader in thinking that Caballé sang exclusively bel canto which is untrue. I do not wish to fight over this and you can have me "blocked" as you have threathened to do but it will be nothing else than abuse of power. -- (talk) 06:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I personally dislike both leads. According to the The Grove book of opera singers By Laura Williams Macy, Caballé was one of the leading Verdi sopranos of her generation. Unlike what both lead versions seem to indicate, Verdi was decidedly not a bel canto composer (indeed if you take the time to read the bel canto article he was one of the composers who started a major shift away from bel canto). Caballé's close association with that composer and his works clearly indicates that she was not "best known for singing bel canto". Further, at many of the major houses she was heard more often in works by Verdi, Mozart, Strauss, Wagner, Puccini, and Gounod than in works by the bel canto trinity (including the Met, Glyndebourne, and the Royal Opera House). However, she clearly had great success in the works of Donizetti, Rossini, and Bellini. To me the Grove article describes her better as "the successor to Maria Callas" (i.e. a singer who performed with great success in an unusually broad repertoire; and a singer who carried on the bel canto revival which began with singers like Callas, Sills, and Sutherland). While her achievements in bel canto are a very important part of her career (particularly since it is the repertoire which initially brought her fame), she certainly managed to carve out a place for herself as a great interpreter of other kinds of roles. Let's not minimize the other aspects of her career.4meter4 (talk) 13:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
To further illustrate the point. Take a look at the Met Opera Archives. If you do a search for Caballé you will see that she sang only one bel canto role at the Met: Bellini's Norma. Her other Met roles included 8 Verdi heroines, 3 Puccini heroines, Gounod's Marguerite, Strauss's Ariadne, and Cilea's Adriana Lecouvreur.4meter4 (talk) 14:09, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
The IP added the phrasing back in to the article with a misleading edit summary. I agree with just about everything you said, 4meter4. Caballe is well-known for both bel canto and for many much heavier (and later) roles. I believe she sang a lot more bel canto in European opera houses, even after she was known here. I also think that early Verdi operas are arguably bel canto. Those small quibbles aside, 4meter4, rather than my reverting the IP's change (which is simply not encyclopedic and unsourced), it would be great if you would take a stab at rewriting the intro. Please bear in mind that whatever you say in the lead has to be either borne out by the body or sourced, and please try to avoid superlatives unless you're attributing them to a source - and forgive me if what I'm saying are things you already know. Would you be willing to do that?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, you are repeating things I already know; but no offence taken. I'm currently busy helping get L'Orfeo ready for FA (although its really Brianboulton who is spearheading that). But I'll take a crack at Caballé later. The article as a whole could really use some weeding for OR, weasel words, etc. Ideally the lead should be a summary of the main body and shouldn't have any citations per the guidelines at WP:LEAD (unless there are quotes in the lead). I agree with your assessment of Verdi; although even his early operas show glimmers of where he ultimately ended up going. They're bridge works. Regaurdless, Caballé sang the traditional Verdi warhorses which are well out of the bel canto overlap. 4meter4 (talk) 00:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with everything you said, including the lead. I'm very pleased that you're willing to revise the article. For the moment, I'm going to leave the IP's change in place (just to avoid a silly edit war) with the knowledge that you're going to fix everything. :-) Thanks!--Bbb23 (talk) 00:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, I'm not perfect so I don't know about fixing everything... but I certainly will give it a whirl. I almost always work on the lead after the rest of the article is done, so don't expect my red pen to fly any time soon either. Any assistance you care to give is also welcome. Cheers.4meter4 (talk) 00:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I added the smiley after "fixing everything" so you would know I was only, I dunno, 85% serious? Working on the lead after the body makes perfect sense. If you don't mind, I'll wait until you've done your revision before assisting. I'm better at the proofing, rewording, and other gnome-like activities than at major writing. Or at least it's less work - and better you than me (add another smiley here). In any event, your approach sounds very good to me. I won't hold my breath, though, because I understand you're busy.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:30, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation: Catalan and Spanish[edit]

WP:IPA for Catalan and Spanish are conceived to represent standard phonetic pronunciations of these languages at Wikipedia, steaming and created from their respective phonological studies (check Catalan phonology and Spanish phonology). Names of living persons, places, etc. can be trancribed in their local/native language(s) (WP:PRON). Jɑυмe (xarrades) 15:08, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I left in the Catalan pronounciation, even though I think it's clutter. However, I reversed the order of the two pronunciations, and I removed the addition of Catalonia from the early life section as unnecessary.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:10, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I beg your pardon? Why is it unnecessary to add she is from Catalonia? This is a first-level political division of a country. There is no reason to exclude the word Catalonia from the text. Barcelona is located in Catalonia, and Catalonia is located in Spain, whether you like it or you don't.
You shouldn't reverse the order of both pronunciations, her name is spelt according to Catalan spelling. I will call an administrator. You make changes quite deliberately... Jɑυмe (xarrades) 15:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
By your logic, every time we mentioned a city (like Barcelona) in Catalonia, we'd have to include Catalonia in the article. Makes no sense.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:30, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Not every single time, no.. At least once in every article. Spain is a highly decentralized country with different regional identities, are you aware of this? You shouldn't avoid mentioning the Spanish autonomous communities (first-level political division of the Kingdom of Spain). Jɑυмe (xarrades) 15:40, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I've opened a topic on these issues at WP:BLPN, which may not be the best place to discuss them. That said, feel free to contribute.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:13, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't see the point of the "Spanish" pronunciation. All it is is an approximate pronunciation by people who speak a language that doesn't have the phonemes to pronounce it properly and by people who don't know the initial "o" is pronounced as a "u". It seems as illogical as adding a French pronunciation to show how the French pronounce it.-- (talk) 11:47, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Any chance of an Infobox?[edit]

I've just come across this page, and there doesn't seem to be an infobox on it. Would someone who knows more about the subject than me be able to put on in place? Thanks. drewmunn talk 17:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

As I recall, the opera project guidelines discourage infoboxes for opera singers.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
OK, didn't know that ta. drewmunn talk

Referenced "Official" website is not official at all.[edit]

Under "References", #2 is called "official website (in Spanish)". It seems clear to me that it is not. It doesn't say "official"; no contacts or the like; it presents a poll no sane artist would do; and it has some links at the page bottom that have nothing to do with her, or even with music.

I don't know how to handle that, though. There is a text passage (the reference anchor) that couldn't stand without the reference; and I'm not a native speaker. Would someone please have a look into that? (talk) 16:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)