Talk:Mount Kazbek

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Is this a better image?[edit]


Who owns the summit?[edit]

Georgia and Russia also, according to [1] Viewfinder (talk) 13:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Kazbek is on the Russo-Georgian boarder. Taamu (talk) 14:04, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Taamu, but the above map comes from the same ultimate source as mine. I would like to see an official Georgian map of the area. Even if the summit is wholly within Georgia, part of the mountain is probably still in Russia. Over to you, DP/Nakh. Viewfinder (talk) 17:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I double-checked a couple of other sources, and while the Georgian Soviet Encyclopedia states that the peak lies within the Kazbegi District of Georgia (present-day Stepantsminda district) under the articles of Mt. Kazbek (Mkinvartsveri in Georgian) and Kazbegi District, I looked up other maps (both Georgian and Russian maps) that show the peak lies on the border. Nevertheless, that is no excuse for placing the mountain solely on the North Ossetian map, which could be used for political purposes (the map that is used on the Kazbek page resembles a political map instead of a physical map). I therefore suggest using a more inclusive, physical map that places Kazbek on the international boundary. This should make the page more neutral and hopefully avoid political overtones.

D.Papuashvili (talk) 18:05, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no such rule that would say that if a mount is on the international boundary, a regional map cannot be used. But at the same time you can add a second map (the location map of Georgia). That is not forbidden. Furthermore, I cannot understand this kind of edits. Taamu (talk) 05:54, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I have no strong views about which language should come first, and do not really want to get involved in any edit conflict on the subject. But it would appear that Kazbek is well outside South Ossetia, and that the greater part of the mountain is in Georgia. Therefore I would be inclined to put the Georgian first. Viewfinder (talk) 08:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
So have I. I dont know any criteria to make georgian first in the set. But surrounding territories mostly are populated by ossetians (see Ossetians in Georgia or Truso. There are a lot of ossetian legends about Kazbeg. Culturally it is bart of Ossetia.--Bouron (talk) 09:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
In no way shape or form is this mountain culturally a part of Ossetia. As a political entity, Ossetia did not even exist when Georgia controlled the area, including large parts of what is now North Ossetia. Do not try to portray the mountain as somehow being a part of the cultural heritage of Ossetia and politicize this issue. As for Russia, the latter simply conquered the North Caucasus and subjugated the people living there, so Russia's claim towards the peak's name and its language reference should be even less that than of the Alans. This is geography and not politics. The Georgian Soviet Encyclopedia which was fairly biased towards Russia and Moscow in general, says that the mountain is a part of Georgia. This article also says that the mountain geographically within Georgia.

D.Papuashvili (talk) 11:30, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Tell this hug-wash to your children. This is encyclopedia. If you are so crazy on georgian place in the set put it to the top. It is not principal for me where ossetian name is.--Bouron (talk) 13:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Both Google Maps and Google Earth show the summit on the border, in line with my link at the start of this section. Viewfinder (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I have checked the location given in the edit summary by Gaesar and its distance from the marked border is well within the error margin of Google's international border data. Viewfinder (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Nothing of the sort. the mountain is away from the border--Gaeser (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Now Google is mistaken :))) Funny.--Gaeser (talk) 12:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Google is not mistaken, but there are error margins in its international border data. See the maps linked to the top of this page. In any case, this article is about the mountain. Do you deny that part of the mountain is in Russia? Viewfinder (talk) 12:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
YES, I do. Is the question closed?--Gaeser (talk) 12:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

and, by the way, this map also shows that peack is in Georgia. Also, there was demarcation of border between RF and Georgia, and Kazbegi stayed within Georgia.--Gaeser (talk) 12:27, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

One of your links does not cover the mountain at all. The other shows it on the Russia-Georgia border. Viewfinder (talk) 12:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaeser (talkcontribs) 12:37, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect the map that you have just uploaded shows that the border passes directly over the summit! Viewfinder (talk) 12:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Are you kidding? The border is in 2 km from it!--Gaeser (talk) 12:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

No I'm not kidding! Click on the map to enlarge it. The 5033m summit is clearly shown on the marked border.Viewfinder (talk) 12:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The best map that I could come up with is leaf 44 in the 1990 edition of the Times Atlas of the World [Comprehensive Edition]. The summit of Kazbek is marked just South of the border, and if they haven't changed this in the last 20 years, I'd say it still is. Sorry that I'm not able to provide you with a map by Freshfield. I will keep looking though. Qwrk (talk) 13:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Please have a look at this map [2] and tell me what you're thinking. [I know the border says 'approximate'.] Qwrk (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It does indeed state "approximate" and therefore should not be regarded as reliable compared with the Soviet mapping uploaded to this page. I find the claim that the Soviet map shows the summit 2km from the border to be astonishing!!Viewfinder (talk) 13:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The map that User:Qwrk provided definitely places the summit within Georgia. On the other hand, there might be a region of the mountain, particularly the portion of Kazbek's northwest slope that descends into North Ossetia. I know that the Kolka glacier which lies in the valley to the north of Jimara and Kazbek is in North Ossetia and a minute portion of that glacier could be connected directly to Kazbek in addition to some secondary mountain in the region.

D.Papuashvili (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The map does not definitely place the summit within Georgia; it states "approximate" and is therefore not a definite source. By contrast, the map on this page does definitely place the summit on the border. Viewfinder (talk) 13:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Viewfinder, I'm referring to that particular map, where the summit is located to the east of the Georgia/Russia border. According to that map, the Maili Glacier which is to the north and northwest of the summit is well within Georgian territory too. On a different note, all of these maps seem to be somewhat archaic, because I've seen several newer atlases (1989 onwards) that show the elevation of Kazbek to be at 5,047 meters asl. The older maps that I have all indicate a height of 5,033m. D.Papuashvili (talk) 13:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Gaeser, on your map, "kazbeg" is sure in georgia. But that is just a title. please study "how to use topographic maps". On your map R-G border runs accurately over highest elevation area.--Bouron (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

We have clear maps that shows that Kazbek is on the boarder. There is nothing to discuss. Taamu (talk) 13:52, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The skimountaineer map qualifies the border as "approximate" and therefore is not a reliable source for its course. It would be great to see a detailed post-Soviet map but until we do, I think we have to go with the Soviet map. Re the elevation, a regular e-contact of mine, a DGPS expert, is headed for the Caucasus, I will ask him if Kazbek is on his itinerary. Viewfinder (talk) 14:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

One of the editors asked me to check Google maps. Google maps are the secondary data. I provided the Soviet map (when Georgia was a part of the USSR). At the same time there is no border demarcation agreement signed (since the collapse of the USSR), that is why we are facing this kind of problem. Taamu (talk) 14:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I repeat: the border data used Google Maps and Google Earth are low resolution, with an error margin greater than their distance from the summit. No evidence has been provided that Georgia disputes the border shown on the Soviet maps. Viewfinder (talk) 14:46, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Exactly! As I see now, the main poin is that Georgia controls larger part of the mountain. Since when this aspect began to predominate over the logic? Is it a key factor or what? If yes, then we have to calculate which country dominates over a mountain (that is on an international boarder) and change each and every location map. If not, then let's keep the status quo. Taamu (talk) 15:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Logic? Georgia dominates over a mountain and controlling some areas near the mountain by RF doesn't make it Russian/Ossetian. –BruTe Talk 15:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, but I didn't understand what you mean. What areas controlled by Russia are you talking about? The summit of the mountain is on the border. Taamu (talk) 15:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
It seams BRURE and David simply dont understand Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Five pillars.--Bouron (talk) 16:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
I can now see Georgian and North Ossetian location maps. What a good solution! But mention of Russia/Ossetia should not have been removed from the lead section. BRUTE, please can you provide a good reason for this edit or agree to restore my version. Thanks. Viewfinder (talk) 16:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Bouron, bravo! That will be the best solution. Both the wolves have eaten much and the sheep have not been touched ;) Taamu (talk) 16:53, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks!) --Bouron (talk) 17:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Freedom comes with responsibility. The longer you have it, the better you come to understand the uselessness of fighting small-minded nationalistic fuelled petty wars. It might serve a purpose and even appear to give you the upper hand for a moment, but that'll only be for a very short moment indeed. In the end history will judge, as it has always done.
If Wikipedia were to do itself a favour for the long term future, it'd ban IP-only editors forever and put the severest possible restrictions on pushing nationalist agendas.
Qwrk (talk) 15:44, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Maybe my english is not perfect, but can you specify this message. --Bouron (talk) 16:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
The problem is that in higher art forms, the integrity of the message is as much dependant on the artistry of the recipient as that of the sender. Seek a wiser fool.
Qwrk (talk) 17:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry that this issue has come up again and in particular that some editors have been editing the article without discussing the issue here first. Encyclopedia Britannica correctly states that Kazbek is a mountain in north Georgia, but does not deny that part of it is in Russia or claim that the summit is wholly within Georgia. Viewfinder (talk) 09:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I had a chance to look over the geography of North Ossetia and the highest mountain of North Ossetia (even according to Soviet sources) is Jimara and not Kazbek. Therefore, the only part of Kazbek that could even potentially be considered to be in North Ossetia is the northwestern slope of the mountain and not the peak. There is no reason to suggest that this mountain is in North Ossetia at all with the possible exception of the mountain's northwestern slope. I highly doubt that both the old Soviet sources as well as Britannica are both wrong about the location of the summit, especially its peak. D.Papuashvili (talk) 09:29, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
You mention Soviet sources but do not give any. Soviet maps are clear - the border passes over Kazbek's summit. Viewfinder (talk) 09:36, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Again, let me clarify. The Georgian Soviet Encyclopedia is a Soviet source, and again, under the article for North Ossetia, in the geography section, the highest mountain that is listed for North Ossetia is Jimara (a.k.a Jimaray-Khokh in Ossetian) and not Mt. Kazbek. The article for Mt. Kazbek also lists the peak as being located in Georgia as I mentioned on this talk page last year. D.Papuashvili (talk) 09:57, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Does the GSE or any other source actually state that Kazbek is wholly within Georgia? It sounds to me that the exact course of the border has never been agreed - a not uncommon situation. But while the only detailed maps (Soviet, Google) of the area show a shared summit, I oppose the deletion of North Ossetia from the Kazbek article. Viewfinder (talk) 10:32, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
No, the GSE does not state that the mountain is wholly within Georgia. It refers to the peak as "a mountain in Georgia." It seems to me that the mountain's northwestern slope is located in North Ossetia. So, let's keep the text the way it is for now and wait for further clarification. D.Papuashvili (talk) 10:47, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. If you can uncover verifiable evidence that Georgia officially claims the whole of Kazbek, or perhaps even that Russia has conceded it, then we should edit the article appropriately. Viewfinder (talk) 14:40, 1 September 2011 (UTC)