Talk:Muawiyah I

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Recently removed content[edit]

HyperGaruda you recently removed some text from the Muawiyah_I page that we spent years collecting and writing.

HyperGaruda you should have consulted everyone who contributed to this page. We all spent a lot of effort collecting this content.

HyperGaruda this page touches on many other articles too in wikipedia. I have been collecting books and will be looking at the pages surrounding it in the next few months.

While building this article, we went through a huge discussion and had to do a lot of work;. The reason why this article got so long was because we had to use quotes from Sunni books because the Sunnis did not know what Sunni books said and we used quotes from the Shia books because many Shias did not know what their books, hence they kept on arguing. Even though the earlier books had similar content. By using so many references, we managed to stabilise the article and illustrated what the various books actually said through the ages.

Books written by western academics were also extensively used. Hence the article remained stable for around 2 years, event though it covered some very contentious issues. HyperGaruda over the next few months I will be working with you on various articles. HyperGaruda it will be good to work with you to improve these article. If you have something to contribute you are welcome to do so. If your objection is that the page is too long, then I will reinstating some of the content and created new pages. But just arbitrarily deleting content that took years to collect and write does not serve the interests of the Wikipedia users. This article covers some very complex history, missing pieces out of that history, distorts the history.

I had to go through thousands of books while working on these pages. I started off in The London School of Oriental and African Studies library, where I worked and the British Library and I then ended up crossing continents in search of books. You find a book and then you discover that you need to search for another ten. I spent the last 5 years in search of books. The important thing is that you keep an open mind. Many of the books that we look for are also very old, therefore its even harder to find them and its like looking for a diamond in a diamond mine.

Some stories are also changed as they are re-told through the ages. You discover that people manipulate history to financially benefit them selves. They say victors write the history books. Some authors / story teller also manipulate and mould stories to suite their interests and their sponsors interests, this necessitates that we cover the subject from every angle. These pages also cover "power and money" hence you need to show all the angles and you need to illustrate what the various books said through the ages; to give the reader a better understanding of the subject. There are many pages on wikipedia that are very long when covering such complex issues. The important thing is that we remain open minded, honest and impartial in persuit of the truth. HyperGaruda I look forward to working with you --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:30, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for this epic monologue. I have spent weeks making this article look encyclopedic, mostly by moving out "history" that is from before or after Mu‘āwiyah's life, i.e. irrelevant to this article. Where possible, I moved those parts to more relevant articles, but most of the time, the exact same content was already present there. So do not worry that your contributions have disappeared into cyberspace; they are still somewhere on Wikipedia, on pages where they belong. By the way, I'd love to see what these rare and old sources are, because most quotes in this article came from modern books of the last 10-20 years that I could even find at my local library. - HyperGaruda (talk) 20:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
We had to use some modern books because people were complaining that some of the older books were primary sources. Therefore we had to use both modern and old books. --Johnleeds1 (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

So I know that my comment isn't relevant to content deletion but I'm hoping it is ok to post here since you two seem to be the primary curators of this article. I am wondering why the dating system changes multiple times between AD and AH? For the sake of most visitors to Wikipedia being primarily familiar with the AD system used in the majority of countries and populations, could the article be edited to reflect a single dating system that does not require readers to learn a new one or constantly do math to figure out when events happened? Rs180216 (talk) 02:53, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

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Early Life - Correction[edit]

It is not confirmed who is the actual father of Muawiyah

Hind daughter of Atabah, known of secret prostitution before Islam , she is the wife of Abu Sufian.Her son Muawyah is claimed by four other possible father

  • Musafer son of Abi Amr son of Umaya
  • Amarah son of Alwalid son of Al Mugherah
  • Al-Abbas son of Abdel Muttaleb
  • Al-SABAH a singer for Amarah son of Al-Walid

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian10 (talkcontribs) 20:18, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I made a quick glance and I see no sources to back up his claim, not only that we know Muawiyah's father, read the article it is Abu Sufyan. Stop playing this game Alexis Ivanov (talk) 20:38, 29 August 2016 (UTC)


  • (وقال الاصمعي وهشام بن محمد الكلبي في كتاب المثالب ( 8 ) : إن معاوية كان يقال إنه من أربعة من قريش : عمارة بن الوليد المخزومي ، ومسافر بن عمرو ، وأبي سفيان ، والعباس بن عبد المطلب ، وهؤلاء كانوا ندماء أبي سفيان ، وكان كل منهم يتهم بهند ، فأما عمارة بن الوليد فقد كان من أجمل رجالات قريش ، وهو الذي وشى به عمرو بن العاص إلى النجاشي ، فدعا الساحر فنفث في إحليله فهام مع الوحش ، وكانت امرأة النجاشي قد عشقته ( 9 ) ، وأما مسافر بن أبي عمرو فقال الكلبي : عامة الناس على أن معاوية منه ، لانه كان أشد حبا لهند ، فلما حملت هند بمعاوية خاف مسافر أن يظهر أنه منه ، فهرب إلى ملك الحيرة وهو هند بن عمرو ، فأقام عنده )

AL_ASMAI and Hisham bin Muhamad said in the book ALMATHALIB (8):It is said that Muawyah is from four from KURAISH, AMARAH son of ALWALID MAKHZUMI, MUSAFER SON of AMR, ABU SUFIAN< ABBAS SON OF MUTTALIB, and those were companions of ABU SUFIAN,and they were all accused of HIND.........But MUSAFER most people said he is the real father ....and when HIND got pregnant with MUAWYA , MUSAFER scared of being accused , so he ran away to the king of HIRA HIND SON OF AMR and stayed their. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian10 (talkcontribs) 05:30, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

  • ALZAMAKHSHARI is important source of the Islamic history said:(وقال الزمخشري في ربيع الابرار ( 12 ) : وكان معاوية يعزى إلى أربعة : إلى مسافر بن أبي عمرو ( 13 ) ، وإلى عمارة ابن الوليد ، وإلى العباس بن عبد المطلب ، وإلى الصباح ( 14 ) مغن لعمارة بن الوليد ، قال : وقد كان أبو سفيان دميما قصيرا ، وكان الصباح عسيفا لابي سفيان شابا فدعته هند إليها ، فغشيها )

Also ALZAMAKHSHARI in his book RABIE AL ABRAR (12):MUAWIAH was said to be from one of four,.....and SABAH .....said: ABU SUFIAN was short and Ugly,while SABAH was good looking young , HIND called upon him and he slept with her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian10 (talkcontribs) 05:40, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

It is well known that there are lots of Giftpilz-type books demonising Hazrat Muawiyah. Historians stopped taking such books seriously in the late-19th Century when proper historical sources such as Tabari were published in European languages.-- Toddy1 (talk) 06:53, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Al-Zamakhshari is regarded as good reference, including Wikipedia:(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Zamakhshari)who says about him ( He was a great authority on the Arabic language as well as a rationalist theologian ).
  • Al Asmai as well is well regarded by Wikipedia:(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Asma%27i ). Wikipedia says about him ( As-Asmaʿi, was an Arab scholar, philologist and anthologist. He was one of the earliest Arabic lexicographers and one of the three leaders of the Basra school of Arabic grammar).
  • Osama Anawar Ukasha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_Anwar_Okasha)also is an Egyptian film maker of integrity , he brought the issue of refusing to follow religious propagandas of promoting figures from history in a way that might lie about history .
  • Who is Abu Sufyan : (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Sufyan_ibn_Harb). He is Sakhr son of Harb from BANU-ABD-SHAMS . mentioned in Wikipedia and in Tabari . It is know about Arabic peninsula tribes that there were tribs of honor like (Bani Hashem and Zahra and Makhzom etc ) and tribes known to live from what their women bring them like (Banu Abd-Shams and Sulul ...), that explain the behavior of ABu Sufyan hosting his companions .(اشتهر الزنا عند العرب في الجاهلية والاسلام على حد سواء، يروى ان قبيلة لما ارادت الاسلام سالوا الرسول الاعظم (ص) ان يحل لهم الزنا لانهم يعيشون على ماتكسبه نسائهم .

انه ليس من الصدفة ان يبدا الصراع في الجاهلية بين اولوا الشرف من العرب كبني هاشم ومخزوم وزهرة وغيرهم وبين من اشتهر بالعهر والزنا مثل بني عبد شمس وسلول وهذيل والذي امتد هذا الصراع الى مابعد دخول كل العرب الاسلام .

), (http://mufakerhur.org/?p=11173)
  • AL-Tabari has an interesting story, where Moawiyah is technically accusing his father with prostitution. Tabari Story states that Muawiyah told ZID-IBN_ABIH ( who's name means Ziad who's father is unknown) that he knows that Abu SUFIAN is the actual father of Ziad and he considers him as a brother.

Syr10 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian10 (talkcontribs) 13:45, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Syr10