Talk:Muddy Waters

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The London Muddy Waters Sessions[edit]

In this page it says that the album released in 1970, while in the album's page is says 1972. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Corrected: April 1972 according to discography in the Chess box; also added to Muddy Waters discography. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:35, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Electric Mud[edit]

The only reference in Gordon's bio connecting Electric Mud and Hendrix is parenthetical:

(Pete Cosey was later told by Jimi Hendrix's valet that before he'd perform, Jimi would play "Herbert Harper's Free Press News" from Electric Mud for inspiration. "The first guitarist was aware of was Muddy Waters," Hendrix said. "I heard one of his old records when I was a little boy and it scared me to death, because I heard all of those sounds. 'Wow, what is that all about?'")[Gordon 2002, p. 206]

Cosey was one of the guitarists on EM; in his notes, Gordon identifies the valet as James Finney.[p. 354] Hendrix biographers identify Finney as a celebrity hairdresser, who Hendrix sometimes used around late 1969 and 1970. Miles Davis was also a client, for whom Posey recorded several albums.

EM was released in October 1968, about the same time as Hendrix's Electric Ladyland and well after Are You Experienced (5/67) and Axis: Bold as Love (12/67). If indeed Cosey's/Finney's claim is true, the EM track only "inspired" Hendrix late in his career. However, in researching several Hendrix biographies (Henderson, Shapiro, McDermottt (3), Murray, Mitchell, Redding, Brown, Black, Roby (3), Shadwick, and Cross), none mentioned that Hendrix was inspired, influenced, or even aware of EM. Hendrix often cited Waters as an influence, including in one of his earliest interviews in January 1967, shortly after his first record "Hey Joe";[Roby 2012, p. 6.] the quote that Gordon uses is from a Rolling Stone interview published in March 1968.[p. 326]

Hendrix is discussed as an influence on Cosey and the recordings with Miles Davis: "Hendrix haunts Agartha [Davis' 1975 album] from start to finish; Miles invokes him ceaselessly, both through guitarists Pete Cosey and Reggie Lucas and his own wah-wah processed trumpet and organ. Cosey launches into a series of ... Hendrix's onomatopoeic guitar improvisations".[Murray 1989, p. 202.] In any event, the statement in the article "Nonetheless, various musicians have cited the album's influence, including Jimi Hendrix,[25]" is not supported by Gordon or other available sources.

Also, the reference for Led Zeppelin and "Black Dog" appears to be from a user-generated website ("Since we can't cover everything we'd like to all by our lone-some, we'd like to invite online music fans to submit work for our magazine ...") and should have a better source, preferably an actual quote from Jones.

Ojorojo (talk) 14:52, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

I did a web search, and this random post on a Led Zeppelin forum may shed some light: it says that John Paul Jones did actually say several times that he got the riff from Electric Mud, but that someone figured out that he must have actually been talking about Howlin' Wolf's rendition of "Smokestack Lightning" from the similar The Howlin' Wolf Album, then tracked down Jones and got Jones to admit that he had confused the two albums. Of course, it's just a random internet comment, but he cites some published books, and if you listen to the song, it does seem to check out, rhythm-wise. So I think it's fine to drop the Led Zeppelin thing.
Probably fine to drop the Hendrix reference too - as you note, he had already fully developed his style by the time Electric Mud came out. Korny O'Near (talk) 15:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
Sometimes even the pros get it wrong?!? Here's a different "Smokestack" connection. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:57, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

9/17 addition of unreferenced material[edit]

Several statements have been added without citations to reliable sources. These include opinion-type claims "a then-unknown Buddy Guy", "not a commercial success, but it was lauded by critics", "perhaps due to the album's commercial success", "longtime fans of Waters whose desire to play with him was the impetus", "It was the most successful album", etc.

Their are several biographies and encyclopedia entries about Waters – there is no reason these can't be used to support additions to the article. Perhaps a review of WP policies, such as WP:Verifiability, WP:Identifying reliable sources, and WP:Citing sources would be helpful. This would help cut down on a lot of the original research found in music articles.

Ojorojo (talk) 14:07, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes - for the most part I got lazy and just copied/paraphrased content from the Wikipedia articles about those 60s albums. You're right that it all needs to be cited. Korny O'Near (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
MusicTAP doesn't appear to be a RS (reader-submitted content with no indication of editorial oversight) – I've replaced with Gordon. Also the access dates were indicated as January 28, 2012 and February 13, 2011 for the Billboard ref. The dates the citations are added should be used. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:19, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
Alright, good point, and thanks for adding good references. Korny O'Near (talk) 20:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
The EM material really is more appropriate for the album article(s). Plus I'm unconvinced about Hendrix – why isn't his "embracing" mentioned in any of the many bios I cited above? The NPR ref is tentative: "was apparently one of Jimi Hendrix's favorite Muddy Waters records" (my emphasis). Also what is "Traces of its raggedly fuzzy ethos have informed music by The White Stripes and Black Keys, among others" supposed to mean? That the writer hears it in their music? —Ojorojo (talk) 23:46, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
I don't know... having some familiarity with all of the music involved, I also can't imagine how NPR can specifically tell that these bands were influenced by Electric Mud and not one of the hundreds of other blues + psychedelia albums of the time. Maybe there are some quotes from the artists involved. Personally, at this point I'm about to ready to drop all the "reaction of other musicians to Electric Mud" bits. There's no strong evidence that this album had much of an impact, certainly not compared to his 50s material. Korny O'Near (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
I see now that you had already deleted those parts when I wrote that. I guess we've reached some consensus, then. Korny O'Near (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2017 (UTC)