Talk:Muhammad

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Good article Muhammad has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Allah or God[edit]

In the Quran the name of the Creator of all the univers comprising Jesus PBUH, is Allah, and so it is in the Gospel And all the Scriptures sent by Him, there is no God except Allah. Rgabido (talk) 03:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Some prefer one of these terms and some the other. We follow the Wikipedia Manual of Style, which favors "God". See WP:ALLAH. Eperoton (talk) 03:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, but what I mean is that Allah is a proper name, God is a common noun, we all have a proper name, and Allah deserve one that never been claimed by anyone. Rgabido (talk) 04:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Allah deserving such a name is your religious viewpoint. Here on Wikipedia, we strive to write articles from a secular POV.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 16:16, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Allah is not really the name of God, as God in Islam is immune to any specific qualifiers. In fact, naming God (as is done in Judaism, where God has a name) in Islam is similar to idolatry unless the source and the name are separated; like with the Alawites in their divine triads [1] or Christianity. Yaḥyā ‎ (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

"Allah" is the Arabic word that is always used for "God" or god. The generic word for "god" is "allah". The word literally translates as "god" and that is why we translate "Allah" as "God". See WP:ALLAH. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 14:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to this discussion. As per the Wikipedia style guide, we use God, not Allah. The connotations of Allah in Islamic theology or Arabic linguistics is irrelevant to this discussion.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 16:16, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Do you think Zeus is an allah? You may want to check ar.wikipedia.org. The generic god in Arabic is "ilah", not Allah. As in "La ilah ila Allah" - no god except Allah. 91.155.195.247 (talk) 11:15, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Allah is the Arabic for "God" (as in the one and only); ilah is the Arabic for "god" (as in what is believed by the Arabs with their multiple gods). Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:15, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

@Rgabido: This is the English Wikipedia. Here, we use English terminology. We use the English proper name "God" with a capital G. The common noun is "god" with a lowercase g. This article is making the correct distinction. The Arabic phrase "La ilah ila Allah" would correctly translate to English as "no god except God." People who are unfamiliar with English often fail to realize that "God" with a capital G is a proper noun. This is a common misunderstanding that has been discussed multiple times in the archives of this talk page. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Would "no god except Zeus" translate to "no god except God" as well? 91.155.195.247 (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
It would not, as this carries a Monotheistic connotation, whereas Zeus is a polytheistic god. In the case of Allah vs. God, Islam is a monotheistic Abrahamic religion, and thereby there is no need to use specific terminology for clarification purposes.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 16:16, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
No. That would translate to "no god except Zeus", as it is the same language. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Rgabido: About English terminology, there is a big problem, god mean the name of the Creator or simply a god of gods? Ok with capitalized "G" we make the difference, but what if it is only an autocapilization of a computer, what if a Hindu who worship his cow wanted to address his god by God, what about Christians when they address God, did they mean the Father or the son or the Holly ghost, if God is a proper name, then it would be of one of them. Yes Zeus is a proper name, but it is not our God, it's Greek mythology, which exist before Jesus, and in our Scriptures we found no such things there. god in Arabic is 'إله' /ˈɪlɑ:h/, 'my god' will be; 'إلهي' it's transcription will be /ˈɪlɑ:hi/, as you can see 'i' is added to mean 'my', and الله Allah is coming from إله ˈɪlɑ:h like our scholars says like Ibn Qayyal-Jawziyyayya, the root of 'Allah' is the 'Illah' and then it is transformed to Allah like it is common in Arabic language, and it is the same in Hebrew and Aramaic; the language of Jesus Pbuh, and as you know Jesus never says God or god because He never speak English, He says Allah and Ilah, the proof is in the Bible, the real name of Allah is still there, Bible > Matthew > Chapter 27 > Verse 46 'About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").' 'i' in end of the word like /ˈɪlɑ:hi/ meaning 'my god' ,Aramaic and Arabic are alike in some extent and I'm sure that Jesus was crying using Allah's name. If you see in the previous verse of the Bible, 'g' of 'my God' was in capital, god here is a proper name or a common name ? It's a common name because we can substitute my by other pronoun like 'their'. The cause of this matter is coming from the translation of proper nouns, like Messiah translated to Christ, although the translation should be honest and keep the names unchangeable, and that why the prophecy of the coming of the prophet 'Ahmed' was translated by it's meaning and it's meaning is translated to others, Even Jesus, do you know that He never heard such name, you don't believe me, have I a proof? Yes. In Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary Jesus Jesus BrE [ˈdʒiːzəs] Play NAmE [ˈdʒiːzəs] Play (also ˌJesus ˈChrist) noun = ↑Christ See also: ↑Jesus Christ

Word Origin: [Jesus] from Christian Latin Iesus, from Greek Iēsous, from a late Hebrew or Aramaic analogous formation based on Yěhōšûă‘ ‘Joshua’. Why did you change his name? That's not amazing that we can't anymore find ever the name of Allah the Almighty God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgabido (talkcontribs) 22:27, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Words, including names, are different between languages. Even when a word is borrowed from one language into another it will often change in spelling, pronunciation, and even meaning. In English, "God" (so capitalized) means specifically the deity described in the Bible (including the Hebrew scriptures). For comparison, the English word "god" is a general term for "deity". Zeus, Ptah, Frey, etc are all "gods" but none of them are "God". This is (admittedly) a bit strange, but the English language is full of strange things. As for your comment about Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, a Christian sees them as aspects of one. They are all, equally and simultaneously, God. --Khajidha (talk) 00:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Again, Islamic theology is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It is clear from a reading of this article by a fluent English speaker that there is no need to address ambiguities via usage of special terminology, as is the case with God vs. Zeus. As you have yourself stated, Allah translates as God, and we strive to use English terminology in English language articles wherever possible. This question has been stated many times in the history of this article, and the general consensus is to use God, not Allah.

Okay, "God" and "god" are different words in Arabic. But this should be discussed at WP:ALLAH. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 14:26, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

"Allegedly"[edit]

Should we put words like "allegedly" in the text? Or should we state everything like they are facts? Like that his marriage was happy, or that he did housework. I added allegedly but others didn't like that? So I guess it's better to get support than 'edit-warring.' Also, are synonyms allowed? Or should we just use the same words over and over so no one gets offended? El cid, el campeador (talk) 20:47, 9 June 2017 (UTC) Was this revert in good taste: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=784717976&oldid=784716304 El cid, el campeador (talk) 20:57, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Allegedly could be appropriate in some cases but inappropriate in other cases. Only the undisputed facts should be treated as facts, but we should not hide or be biased towards to unproven statements. Depends with synonyms too, but if removing the Arabic transliteration then we should only use the same translation of a term and not synonyms. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:27, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
WP:ALLEGED and similar words are identified in MOS as a term that can introduce editorial bias through unsourced expressions of doubt. They should be used if it's used in the citation(s). If there's a disagreement between RSs, there are better ways to convey it, e.g., A says that X is true but Y says that it's not. If a source fails under WP:BIASED (e.g., if we're citing a notable religious view), that should be handled through attribution. Eperoton (talk) 00:00, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
I just don't think it can be a fact that anyone had a happy marriage. And saying they were outnumbered three to one but still won sounds like puffery. But I am done trying to improve pages only to be reverted. I'll go back to reverting vandalism and copy editing El cid, el campeador (talk) 01:16, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
The best way to avoid contentious biased words like "allegedly" is to attribute the claim to the source, like "So-an-so wrote in Hadith xxxxx that Muhammad had a happy marriage" or something similar. That's a factual statement, without making any judgment in Wikipedia's voice on whether the source is making a factual statement. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:58, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2017[edit]

"Muhammad[n 1] (Arabic: محمد‎‎; pronounced [muħammad];[n 2] c. 570 CE – 8 June 632 CE)[5] is the prophet and founder of Islam."

Correction: Muhammad (May Allah sends blessing and peace be upon him) is the last prophet/final messenger of Islam, he is not the founder of Islam (only non-muslim believed that he is the founder of Islam). Islam existed since time in memorial, since the first man set foot on earth (Adam (May peace be upon him) and Hawa (May peach be upon her)). Fizraqim (talk) 10:05, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia strives to be secular. Your religious opinions are not objective fact and should not be treated as such.--Ilikerainandstorms (talk) 16:17, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER 11:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Oh, it's perfectly clear what changes this poster wants to make. It is also clear that to make them would be highly inappropriate for this website. --Khajidha (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

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Cause of death[edit]

@Emir of Wikipedia: Thanks for adding quotes. I have three related, but distinct concerns here.

  1. First, regarding the cited sources themselves. I don't see where they assert that poisoning was the cause of death. If I'm reading it correctly, the first quote says only asks the question rhetorically and states that he was poisoned before death ("summa qabl al-maut"), as also narrated in Sunni hadith. The second quotes says nothing about poisoning at all. The quote is a bit garbled and seems to read in the original "... لما أن مرض " ("when the Prophet PBUH became ill with the illness in which God took him"). I don't know what the third source says.
  2. The second concern, which would be relevant only if we can convince ourselves that the sources you cite actually make that assertion, is about due weight in the infobox. One statement is sourced to a standard academic reference, while the other would be sourced to religious sources which can't be even properly be used to source statements of fact, and giving them equal weight certainly seems undue.
  3. The third concern is about putting a cause of death in the infobox at all. EI2 cited for the other cause uses speculative language: "Then Mumammad suddenly fell ill, presumably of the ordinary Medina fever (al-Farazdak, ix, 13); but this was dangerous to a man physically and mentally overwrought." We can reflect it appropriately in the text, but stating it as a fact in the infobox seems to be misusing the source. I would suggest removing that field for the infobox altogether unless we can find RSs willing to make a more definite statement.

Eperoton (talk) 14:18, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Apologies for the late reply
  1. I might have miscopied the second quote, but I thought that the word you translated as illness was poisoned (marad OR مرض). The third source was not a digital copy so I can't copy and paste it.
  2. I can understand your concern about using the religious sources, and under that basis I would accept removal from the infobox. What do you think about having it in the text body though?
  3. Shall we remove the cause of death from the infobox altogether?
Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
@Emir of Wikipedia: Yes on the last question. I'll move the EI2 theory to the appropriate section. We can use primary sources with caution, but so far I don't see a single source which asserts that poisoning was the cause of Muhammad's death. "Marad" is just the common Arabic word for illness, as one can verify in this selection of standard modern and classical dictionaries. Please let me know if I'm missing something. Eperoton (talk) 01:04, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
The third source uses the word بالسم ("beealism"). Am I correct in that this says poisoning or is it a mistranslation? Thanks for moving the other theory to the appropriate section. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:56, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
@Emir of Wikipedia: It looks like bi-l-samm (with the poison), but in what context does it appear? Can you please quote a passage that's long enough to see what it's about or a give me a page number in an available edition? In this version there's a 10-page section with the number 42 starting at p. 362, and its subsections don't seem relevant to the subject. If we do find this assertion there, I would still be concerned about basing a statement directly on a single primary source. Eperoton (talk) 23:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
@Eperoton: On that version it appears on page 363 (364] is the number in the PDF) in the second paragraph. I am having trouble copying and pasting from that so could you please take a look at it in the version you provided? I understand your concern about the single source. Could we change it to sayings that a hadith in The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays says that Mohammaed died of poisoning or something along those lines? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:59, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
@Emir of Wikipedia: Thanks. Here's what it says: "Ali ibn Abi Talib went up to Muhammad, PBUH, and said, crying: you are like father and mother to me, o Prophet of God; are you killed? He answered: yes, as your folk are witness, with poison. And you are killed with the sword, and your beard is tinged with the blood from your head, and my son Hasan is killed with poison, and my son Hussein is killed with the sword..." No modern historian or disinterested reader would take it for a historical narrative, and we shouldn't present it in a way that suggests otherwise. If this is a prominent Shia belief, then we may present it as such, but do we have any evidence that it's a prominent belief? If it is, we should be able to find references to it in secondary sources. Eperoton (talk) 01:31, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Extremely selective look at his military campaigns[edit]

Muhammed's military campaigns were a critical reason that Islam was able spread under the early caliphate, and deserve much more attention. Additionally, it is unacceptable that there is not a single mention of Muhammed's conversion of Khalid Ibn al-Walid, who was not only Muhammed's most dangerous opponent (having defeated him), but also the man most responsible for the conquests over the Persians and Byzantines under the first two caliphs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.247.69.66 (talk) 23:24, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Please provide sources in order to back up your claims. Religious canon is not a sufficient source for making such statements in a secular encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilikerainandstorms (talkcontribs) 16:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)