Talk:Music of Scotland

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Untitled[edit]

The Boards of Canada may be mentioned as a very successful electronic music act hailing from Edinburgh. - James Redfern


Information on all types of music should be at music of Scotland until that article is too long. This is preemptively splitting because now a topic of broad encyclopedic interest redirects to a narrow subsection of the subject. Where would I add info on Scottish rappers or heavy metal bands or immigrant folk music? Putting at music of Scotland would place a small amount of information about a tangential subject at the main page, with presumably a see also to an article on folk music, which actually discusses several non-folk kinds of music. This also does not fit in with the scheme being used at dozens of other articles, even ones that are exclusively about folk music. Finally, the new title is POV because plenty of reasonable people use one of the following definitions of "folk music":

  • Music made using long-standing traditional techniques passed down from generation to generation
  • Musical forms invented by people performing without the hope of recording for profit
  • Any music not rock-, metal-, punk- or hip hop-based, or pop or avant-garde, or electronic in origin
  • Any music made using only traditional instruments
  • Music meant primarily for performance and not recording

This article does not describe music that universally meets any one of these definitions.

An appeal to false authority like "Plenty of reaosnable people" holds no water. This is not a split; there is the same number of pages now as before the move: one. There *was* no information on rappers or heavy metal.Andy Mabbett 01:03, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If there was no split, why shouldn't we adhere to standards and keep this at "music of scotland"? Moving this page will limit the scope of the article when it shouldn't. --Jiang | Talk

Oh, you mean "Because Scotland has other types of music"? Then these types of music should also be mentioned! If we don't mention it here, then where? Sure, Wikipedia is not paper, but that pertains to equally viable alternatives. If you can make articles titled similarly, then we should. That's why we have something called Wikipedia:naming conventions. --Jiang | Talk 01:33, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The following is in response to Andy's comments before Jiang moved the page: It does mention music that is electronic in origin, however. I'm not certain if you are trying to deny that my above definitions are used, but here's a few quotes:

from here

  1. The music must be very old; that it is a particular style of music; that the author is not known. An art song is one that is written by a trained composer and is passed on in written form, whereas a folk song is one which is passed on in the oral tradition rather than in written form (Nettl & Myers, 1976).
  2. The International Folk Music Council adopted this definition at its Annual Conference in London in 1952. It is "music that has been submitted to the process of oral transmission. It is the product of oral transmission. It is the product of evolution and is dependent on the circumstances of continuity, variation and selection." The music may change and evolve as it passes from person to person (Karpeles, 1955, p. 6-7).
  3. Removed one that applies to American folk music
  4. Rhodes (1966) said that folk music could be defined by its sociological function because it is a kind of social behavior. "Interpreted in this light, it can reveal a great deal regarding the interests, thinking and feeling of the people" (Rhodes, 1966, p. 18).
  5. Bohlman (1988) talked about folk music's ability to "express the most profound of human values" (p. xii).
  6. Historically, both folk and popular music are learned through hearing and performing, but that performers of "serious" music have formal training in music theory, composition, and more (Denski, 1992).
  7. There are two kinds of popular music, the folk and mass forms. The folk form is performed live, and the mass form is recorded (Cutler, 1985).

1. Folk songs represent the musical expressions of the common people.

2. These songs are not composed in that they are not the works of skilled, tutored musicians. It is more accurate to say that they have been created rather than composed.

3. These songs are ordinarily the product of an unknown person or group of persons. The credits often read: Anonymous; American Folk Song; Traditional; or Southern Mountain Song. [But Forcucci notes that there are folklike songs where the author is known, but that these songs are "patterned to fit the mold of what typical American folk songs should sound like," p. 18.]

4. The words or lyrics of folk songs are usually colloquial in nature to reflect the speech patterns and expressions of a particular people or region.

5. These songs are highly singable, primarily because they were first presented with the singing voice rather than have been written down in musical notation beforehand.

6. Folk songs are simply structured, both musically and verbally. It is their naivete that gives them their charm.

7. These songs can be effectively performed without instrumental accompaniment. When they are accompanied, a less formal instrument (such as a guitar, banjo, accordion, dulcimer, or Autoharp) is considered appropriate.

8. Folk songs are indigenous to a particular region or people because they reflect the musical/verbal preferences of that people or region in their materials. (Forcucci, 1984, pp. 18-19)

In an editorial for Sing Out! magazine, editor Mark D. Moss noted that the folk magazine had wrestled with a definition of folk music for years. He said that "our community vehemently refuses to take responsibility for defining folk music" (Moss, 1995, p. 2). Moss prefers to think of folk music as an umbrella which covers blues, Cajun music, ballads, and "rooted" music from around the world, along with the music of the contemporary singer-songwriters (Moss, 1995).


from here

the traditional and typically anonymous music that is an expression of the life of people in a community


from here

Webster defines folk music as the "traditional and typically anonymous music that is an expression of the life of the people in a community." It is an excellent "quick and dirty" definition.

Folk music is music that has become part of a people's heritage through oral tradition. A true folk song has no known author. Because of its oral tradition folk music is fluid. Variations in both tune and melody developed as music was passed orally through counties and countries.

Folk music is also a current genre of music that includes not only traditional tunes but newly composed tunes. The definition is not a set one and classification of specific musicians and songs is subject to controversy. Musical genre is much more fluid now than it has been in the past, so the lines between folk, country, celtic and others are often blurred and crossed. The definition of a "modern" folk song is a "song with a soft melodic sound and guitar accompaniment."(1)


from here

Music in Brazil is usually divided in three categories: música folklórica (Folk music), música popular Brasilera or MPB (Popular Brazilian music), and música erudita o música de escola (art music). These terms are generally accepted as implying specific musical styles and social functions. In 1954, there was an International Congress of Folklore, which met in São Paulo. One of the questions on the agenda was the distinction between folk and popular music. Folk music was defined as "that music which being used anonymously and collectively by the unlettered classes of a civilized society, originates also from anonymous and collective creation from the group, or from the adoption and accommodation of popular works that have lost their vital functions in the source from which they originated.(2)" Popular music was defined by the same congress as "that music, which being composed by known authorship, is disseminated and used, with less or more frequency by all levels of the collective group."

(1) The Beginnings of Musical Nationalism in Brazil. Gerard Behague, page 3.



from here

Folk music is characterized by its integration into daily life or its function as a means of passing time while engaged in activities such as work or travel (2) The Music of Brazil. David Appleby, page 95.


The bulk of what this article describes is only debatably folk music. Scottish folk music is POV. Tuf-Kat 01:37, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC) And put me down as another vote for including info on this page on other types of music besides folk music. -Drstuey 05:40, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

links[edit]

The article "List of Folk Musicians" links to an article on "The Battlefield Band". That same group is mentioned in this article "Music of Scotland" yet it doesn't lead to that same article. Instead it links to "edit" ie it is empty. Is there any way of tidying up this loose end?

Clarification of edit[edit]

I just removed from the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s section a list of "important rock and alternative rock acts". It was getting rather long, and while some may merit special mention, it's ambiguous as to where to draw the line. I think, and in my experience this is reflected in other articles, that it's better to not have the list at all. If you have thoughts on the topic, please express them. -GlamdringCookies 05:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the subject to dive in and start editing myself, but if notable bands are to be mentioned, shouldn't Runrig be in there somewhere? As well as a bit about languages in the music (revival of Gaelic, etc). Its my understanding that their first album (Play Gaelic) was breakthrough in being entirely in that language, and that they've done a lot for the language.

{Above} Hear hear. Runrig definitely deserve a particular mention somewhere, though their significance is cultural rather than musical. Indeed it seems that Gaelic-lyriced songs were a minority of their output, and their popularity in any language, seems to be minor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuckwitt (talkcontribs) 12:39, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

A silly question but...[edit]

The paragraph about the bagpipe says 'having been imported around the 15th century'. Interesting. Fascinating. From where? Who by? I think a pair of sentences could develop this point.


I agree The burnanator 01:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by The burnanator (talkcontribs)

There are many allegations as to the origin of bagpipes -just one being that they were introduced to Britain and elsewhere by Roman armies, who used them as a battlefield signalling instrument, after having themselves adopted them from people they encountered in what is today Turkey, (which still does not exclude a Celtic origin). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuckwitt (talkcontribs) 12:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Another endless list of "top names"[edit]

So, the Wikipedia policy about lists is that the criteria for inclusion have to be clear and objective. I want to remove the part of the fiddle section that reads:

"The growing number of young professional Scottish fiddlers makes a complete list impossible. Top current names include Aidan O'Rourke, Bruce MacGregor, Catriona MacDonald, members of the band Blazin Fiddles; John McCusker; Duncan Chisholm of Wolfstone; Chris Stout, Kevin Henderson, Maurice Henderson, and Andrew Gifford of the Shetland group Fiddlers' Bid; Eilidh Steel, Iain MacFarlane, Pete Clark, Eilidh Shaw, Gavin Marwick, Anna-Wendy Stevenson, Angus Grant Jr., and Alasdair White."

I don't consider "top current names" to be clear and objective. I propose this section should be removed, and will do so shortly if no objection is voiced here. -GlamdringCookies 12:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Template:Scottish music[edit]

I made Template:Scottish music today - can you add things to the navbox please. Thanks --Montchav 18:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Folk vs. Pop and Rock[edit]

The following is in the Pop and Rock section:

More modern musicians include Shooglenifty, innovators of the house fusion acid croft, along with Peatbog Faeries. The Easy Club, jazz fusion bands, puirt a' bhèil mouth musicians Talitha MacKenzie and Martin Swan

I identify these performers as folk musicians, though certainly with a fusion element (but this is also true of groups such as Runrig and Capercaillie, which are mentioned under Folk). Should they be moved? An argument could be made for a new section. See Celtic_rock#Scotland. It may be counter-productive to try to label a given performer as folk, rock, or fusion, but I want this article to reflect the breadth and creative genius of modern Scottish folk-infused music. Paulmlieberman (talk) 13:06, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Rock: Jack Bruce[edit]

Somebody without a talk page edited the Pop, rock and fusion section extensively, with, I think, valuable additions. Some of this was on Jack Bruce of Cream fame, who had just died. The material is valuable, but too extensive for an article on Music of Scotland. Some of it would be better in the article on Jack himself. I edited this content heavily, but, I hope, without removing too much. Paulmlieberman (talk) 13:33, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Paul's edit seems appropriate, although the deletion of the mention of Bruce being awarded for his contributions by a Scotish academic institution seems it should of been left there. Per the Guardian Obit a "rehearsal hall at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama, Glasgow, was named after him, and two years later he was presented with an honorary doctorate of letters from Glasgow Caledonian University"
I added the Jack Bruce and Donovan mention years ago -- and today was surprised and a little sad to find someone had deleted my mention of these 2 important Scotish artists from the Music of Scotland.
Younger people may wonder why these 2 deserve their own paragraphs, but it should be remembered both artists competed with the Beatles and Rolling Stones not only for chart positions, but also in craft and nuance.
There was something about the previous tone of the article that may of left the concept that Scotland was a minor player in 60s music, Bruce and Donovan are well documented as being in the major leagues.
Remember Donovan sang and likely still sings Yeats and Burns, Bruce had songs with titles like 'Clear Out' and the 'The Weir of Herminston'. Bruce's contributions and participation in jazz sometimes are a footnote, for that subject lets leave it for a future interview with Carla Bley, Kip Hannahran, Cindy Blackman or Vernon Reid. And/or perhaps as Paul says its time to scan the Jack Bruce page for clarity and set the record straight.
Was sorry to see someone scratched Bruce completely from Scotish music history a few years back, but was also glad to see Paul had the respect to carefully edit the paragraphs yesterday with attention both for the persons and the flow of the article. Sorry to see Jack gone from the planet, he was no trivial figure in late 20th century music. He danced with (and even danced circles around) the giants and never lost his soul.
AnimalNorth (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2014 (UTC)