Talk:Nógrád County (former)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

[Untitled][edit]

Hi, we can discuss the matter here if you want. Tell me if your intrested and I will begin to outline my opinion on the matter. Hobartimus 10:52, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Basicly my main point is that historicly and legally speaking simple occupation of a territory does not mean "it becomes part of that country". So even if the Checz troops invaded Hungary as early as 1918, in the middle of a war usually we do not talk about the gains being already part of a country. Hobartimus 11:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia was founded on October 28, 1918. Two days later, the Slovak leaders declared Slovakia part of the new state. Subsequently, the territory of Slovakia became occupied by the Czechoslovak armed forces. The southern borders of Czechoslovakia had not been recognized by Hungary until 1920. But it does not mean Novohrad became part of Czechoslovakia only after the recognition of this fact by the Hungarian government. Tankred 11:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Right there we have a problem. Who were these "leaders", who voted for them? What legitamcy they had who put them in power? Also this declaration has nothing to do with the invasion of Czech troops and the subsequent war. I can tell you that Romanians also "declared" that Debrecen and everything east of the river Tisza belongs to Great Romania, but that declaration was also meaningless because in itself it's only a declaration. Also it's kind of nonsense to declare victory in the middle of a war or even more so to declare victory even before the war. Let me ask you a hipothetical question. Lets say a group of Mexican-American "leaders" get together and declare that Arizona, New Mexico and Texas now part of the new state of Great Mexico. Will this declaration change the internationally recognized borders of the United States of America or a little something more is needed to achieve that? Hobartimus 19:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

By that time, the borders of the dismembered Austria-Hungary were no longer internationally recognized. Tankred 21:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
We are not talking about Austria-Hungary here I think you can see that just fine. Im gonna rv. * Also you never addressed any of my points, from the question of legitimacy(of the so called "leaders") to the actual act that would change pre existing borders of Hungary. Hobartimus 22:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The "pre-existing borders" that you have mentioned ceased to exist together with their state - Austria-Hungary. Czechoslovakia, one of the successor states, was founded on October 28, 1918. As to the legitimacy, the Czechoslovak government was recognized by the Allied Powers. You keep deleting the sentence "In 1918 (confirmed by the Treaty of Trianon 1920), the part of the county north of the river Ipeľ became part of newly formed Czechoslovakia, and the southern part stayed in Hungary." If you do not agree with this description of the history, could you tell me please to whom the northern part belonged in 1919? And why do you think so? Tankred 12:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
(The legitimacy question was about the Slovak "leaders" you mentioned, not about the czechs) To answer your question in 1919 the northern part was actively contested in an ongoing war, and this is exactly why you cant claim it belonged to the Czhecz already. By moving the correct date around to 1918 you want to retroactively proclaim victory in a war earlier than the peace(which later turned out to be more like a truce) happened. I'm not sure how familiar you are with historical concepts such as the difference between occupation and annexation. I'm also not sure why is it so important to try to alter this date to make it two years earlier, when the war was not yet fought. Also I would be very intrested to hear what you think in this matter? In 1918 Slovak leaders already gave away all the land as a nice birthday present to the Czhecz, and the next day it was already theirs? Only Slovak leaders have this god given right or can German, Hungarian, Roma, etc etc etc leaders also give away some land to a neighbouring country? Hobartimus 22:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)