Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh

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Contemporary Issues[edit]

It has been some time since this article was last updated regarding the contemporary situation between Armenia and Azerbaijan in respects to the ongoing struggle over the Nagorno-Karabakh enclave. There has been many developments in the last few weeks. Given the recent statements by the president of the parliamentary assembly of the Organization of Security and Co-operation, it can be understood that the efforts to remedy the ongoing conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh are surely failing. Also in the past month there have been bilateral relations between the Azerbaijani parliament and the Moldovan parliament regarding the involvement of GUAM (Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Moldova) as an influential party in the peace talks between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the Nagorno-Karabakh region. This source was particularly relevant to the Article on Wikipedia because if contained statements and facts regarding the contemporary issues in the Nagorno-Karabakh area that the Wikipedia article lacked. I was unable to find any relevant information to the current positions held by the government officials of Azerbaijan and Armenia nor the Organization of Security and Co-operation in Europe.

Aliyev, M. (September 23, 2012 Sunday ). President of OSCE Parliamentary Assembly: Minsk group's activity not satisfactory. Trend News Agency, Baku, Azerbaijan.


On the 9th of July 2012 the president and parliament of Azerbaijan made desperate requests to the Assembly on the Organization of Security and Co-operation in Europe to step up the efforts to settle the ongoing conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia. This request from Baku comes after a twenty year period of no results from the OSCE which has led to current frustrations. As peace talks continue to be held, the Secretary General of the OSCE has put forward several proposals that aim to remedy the situation in conjunction with upcoming elections in Azerbaijan. Despite these attempts to bring a level of progress and achievement to the peace talks, Armenia has yet to implement any of the resolutions on the liberation of the Nagorno-Karabakh enclave suggested by the U.N. Security Council. I recommend this source and others like it to anyone who refers to the Wikipedia article in regards to contemporary issues in the Nagorno-Karabakh area. Recent developments have transpired in the ongoing efforts to arrive at an acceptable resolution of peace which the Wikipedia article lacks in information.

Mehdiyev, E. (September 11, 2012 Tuesday ). Deputy parliamentary speaker: Azerbaijan attaches great importance to cooperation with OSCE. Trend News Agency, Baku, Azerbaijan.


The ongoing conflict and lack of resolution between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the Nagorno-Karabakh enclave brings about several critical issues regarding the regions security and foreign investment in the development of industry there. Economic and environmental rights are and have been lacking in the Nagorno-Karabakh region for the last few decades regardless of Azerbaijan’s twenty year membership in the OSCE. The OSCE Secretary General Lamberto Zannier recently stated his support for a peacefully negotiated resolution Between Azerbaijan, Armenia and the OSCE over the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. If a level of peace is not established, economic development will not take shape either. The ongoing war in the South Caucasus has deterred many foreign investors from entering the region. Azerbaijan and Armenia wish to develop their economies and the only way to bring this about would be through developing foreign confidence by refraining from any acts that would escalate the conflict between them. It is evident that peaceful negotiations are the only way to develop progress and a permanent peace in the region. This source is relevant to the Wikipedia article and I would recommend it because it provides information about the threat to security and economic development in the Nagorno-Karabakh region. The Wikipedia article lacked any information regarding the contemporary issue of economic development and security. I believe that this information would be a great help to anyone trying to understand what sort of progress and achievements are being attempted in the region.

M.Aliyev, (July 9, 2012 Monday ). OSCE Secretary General: Nagorno-Karabakh conflict poses enormous threat to region's security. Trend News Agency, Baku, Azerbaijan.

(Veggietotalitarian (talk) 05:03, 3 October 2012 (UTC))

Intro[edit]

Intro is based on consensus. Any changes to the intro must be discussed and agreed at talk. So please propose and discuss any changes before making them. --Grandmaster 07:00, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

NKR's change of status as a state with limited recognition has never been part of any consensus by WP discussants. Nagorno-Karabakh changed its status from an unrecognized state to a state with limited recognition as a result of Aug 2008 Russian-Georgian war, and Russia's subsequent recognition of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia as independent states. Note, that Russia is a permanent member of UN Security Council. Its recognition of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia counts heavily. Also, NKR's independence is supported by 2 US states, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Sprutt (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
I also noticed Grandmaster'r revert comment "recognition by unrecogized states does not count as reognition." This is a reckless disregard of logic of someone else's argument. Abkhazia and S. Ossetia are not unrecognized states. Sprutt (talk) 15:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Agree with Sprutt. Recognition by any state recognized or with limited recognition stops the state from having status of unrecognized. 517design (talk) 17:42, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
And who will stop Sprutt from spreading his Armenian nationalist POV in WP? --E4024 (talk) 17:46, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
NK has no recognition from any internationally recognized state, a UN member. Recognition by unrecognized or partially recognized state is not recognition. South Ossetia could be called a partially recognized state, because it is recognized by Russia, a real state, but which real state recognizes NK? None. US states are not independent states, they are practically provinces of USA. Their recognition means no international status. Therefore, NK is unrecognized. This was discussed a few times in the past. Grandmaster 20:45, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
Criteria for being recognized as a state with limited recognition are the following -
1. have de facto control over a territory, a population, a government, a capacity to enter into relations with other states.
All of the terms are present in case of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. For international relations of NKR see Foreign relations of Nagorno-Karabakh and List of representative offices of Nagorno-Karabakh articles. Representing office in the US is registered in the US Department of Justice as Representative Office of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic.
2. be recognized as a state by at least one other state
This term is ok about NKR for South Osetia and Abkhazia are both "states". There is no obligatory precondition for any state to be UN member to be called a state. Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is not a UN member, is not an internationally recognized state, but it is a state with limited recognition, anyone want it or not. 517design (talk) 06:32, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
This is personal interpretation, and the issue has never been discussed in the context of Abkhazia/S.Ossetia's recognition of NKR. Recognition does not produce any "international status." There are states which are recognized such as NKR, Japan or Kosovo and there are states which are not recognized. Please read carefully the passage in List of states with limited recognition:
NKR meets both declarative and constitutive criteria of sovereignty. Please don't misrepresent your personal opinion as some sort of established view. Sprutt (talk) 23:59, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
According to that definition, NK is a self-declared state (declarative definition). We can mention it. But since NK has no recognition by any member of the international community, including Armenia, it is not a state de-jure (constitutive definition). So NK does not fit the second definition. What we are talking about here is that NK has no recognition from any de-jure state, a member of UNO. Therefore it is unrecognized. That makes it different from S.Ossetia or say TRNC, which have a recognition from a de-jure state, but not by the international community. Grandmaster 07:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

The international community appointed the Minsk Group, chaired by Russia, USA and France, to resolve the conflict, and they clearly stated: "the three Minsk Group Co-Chair countries ... reaffirm their support for the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, and thus do not recognize the independence of NK". [1] That means that NK is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, and not recognized as an independent state. This is the position of the international community, i.e. real, not quasi states. Grandmaster 07:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Grandmaster's comments are irrelevant. N.-Karabakh can be regarded as a recognized state. But we want to have a balanced view as required by WP:NPOV, and the best option is to call N.-Karabakh a state with limited recognition. That's fair. Almost forgot, Grandmaster - stop ordering around here, mind WP:OWN. Zimmarod (talk) 20:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
NKR is recognized by three entities that are separatist themselves and are not shown on maps as separate countries, just like NK. It's quite controversial to regard them as "states". UN has the upper hand here. Also, the Nagorno-Karabakh War ended in 1994, so Azerbaijan doesn't exercise power in NK since at least that year, not earlier. Brandmeistertalk 21:58, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
Abkhazia and S.Ossetia are recognized by Russia, perm UNSC member, and several other UN states. NKR is one step below that. "Unrecognized" is simply against the fact. Sprutt (talk) 02:15, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Recognition means recognition by the member of the international community, i.e. a country that has wide recognition and is a member of international organizations such as UN. That follows from your own definition. Abkhazia and S.Ossetia cannot be regarded as members of the international community. They are only recognized by Russia and Nicaragua. That makes them countries with limited recognition, but since they are not members of the international community, recognition by Abkhazia and S.Ossetia does not mean recognition by a de-jure state. The difference of the NK is that it has not been recognized by a single de-jure state. Therefore it still remains unrecognized, as Minsk Group Co-Chair countries stated. If Armenia recognizes NK as an independent state, then NK could be called a state with limited recognition, because it was recognized by a de-jure state, member of the international community. But unless that happens (very unlikely), NK will remain an unrecognized state. Grandmaster 06:30, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment If Abkhazia and South Osetia recognized NKR, then it should be stated and sourced that it has a limited recognition by Abkhazia and South Osetia. All the arguments about Abkhazia and South Osetia not being widely recognized is irrelevant, since the reader can click on their wiki links and read about them. George Spurlin (talk) 08:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

If all those three are played by the same "puppet master" the recognition among them does not count... --E4024 (talk) 08:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
That's not for me or you to decide, there is partial recognition and we should state the facts and move on. George Spurlin (talk) 08:54, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Grandmaster continues inventing terms like "de-jure state" etc. There are states that are not recognized, like Abkhazia or NKR before 2008, there are states with limited recognition (Abkhazia, NKR or Transnistria after 2008), and there are recognized states like Uruguay. "Unrecognized" no longer applies. Sprutt (talk) 16:28, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
De-jure state is not my invention, it is a term widely used in literature. Again, recognition by a quasi state, non-member of the international community cannot be regarded as international recognition. See how many scholarly sources from 2008-present mention that NK is unrecognized. It is not my opinion, it is sourced info. [2] Grandmaster 18:28, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
But there is recognition, right. We should find a neutral way of stating that fact, instead of arguing about for days. George Spurlin (talk) 13:12, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
The NK is internationally unrecognized, that is sourced info. So by saying that it is unrecognized we only follow the sources. Unrecognized means that it is not recognized by any de-jure state, member of the international community. At the same time, NK is recognized by 3 quasi-states, that have very limited recognition (S.Ossetia, Abkhazia) or none at all (Transnistria). The recognition by those 3 entities cannot be regarded as international recognition, as they do not have a status of a de-jure state. We can mention that while the international community does not recognize NK as a state, it is recognized by similar unrecognized or largely unrecognized entities. If you have any ideas on how to formulate it the best way, please propose at talk. But why recognition by those 3 is important for this particular article anyway? This one is just about the region. Grandmaster 19:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm in no way proposing a language that would state that NK is internationally recognized, but the fact that it's recognized by those 3 quasi-states must be included. I also agree with your point that this should be discussed at the NKR page and not here, unless of course if its already included in the NKR page. George Spurlin (talk) 08:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Finding a neutral way? Why? Are we in love with that unrecognised entity? We should just follow the academic views, and, if necessary eliminating ethnically Armenian or Azerbaijani writers... E4024 (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
I am trying to be flexible, and I propose to omit the question of status altogether (recognized, unrecognized, semi-recognized, etc.), mentioning that NK is a disputed territory, hence negotiations about its status. Sprutt (talk) 13:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Are they? I thought the negotiations were on how to end the Armenian occupation of Azerbaijani territories, including N. Karabakh, but not limited to it. (On the other hand, yes, you are more flexible then the Armenian govt, I wish you represented Armenia in those talks. :-) Any idea where the problem of the occupation, by Armenia of course, of Karki is being negotiated; could it be within the same process? So I believe the negotiations are not on the status of N. Karabakh. They are on how to return Armenian-occupied Azerbaijani territories to their lawful sovereign, Azerbaijan, in a peaceful way. (In those talks Azerbaijan has promised to give the highest level of autonomy to N. Karabakh, that is common knowledge; but is not negotiating anything on that autonomy.) In short, as you also know very well, N. Karabakh belongs to Azerbaijan and this article should handle it within this context. --E4024 (talk) 15:49, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
User:E4024, note that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a forum. Keep your personal opinion about world politics to yourself. Thanks. Sprutt (talk) 19:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
The fact that NK is internationally unrecognized as an independent state is a sourced info. I can cite hundreds of sources to support this statement. It is a fact that NK is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. See the statement of the co-chairs of the Minsk Group above. So why omitting verifiable facts? Here's a very recent book on the subject, it refers to all 4 quasi-states in the post-Soviet area as unrecognized states: [3] If the info about recognition by 3 quasi-states needs to be included, we can reach an agreement on the best way of doing it. Something like "The independence of NK is recognized only by unrecognized or largely unrecognized Abkhazia, S.Ossetia and Transnistria, none of which are members of the international community". Grandmaster 18:50, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Just because you can source it doesn't make it true. I can cite hundreds of sourced to support that the world is ending in 2 months. Again you all need to stop fighting about un/recognition and figure out way to properly and neutrally state the facts. George Spurlin (talk) 11:47, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. WP:VERIFY. If you can cite hundreds of reliable sources about the end of the world, you can include that info. Whether it is true or not is a different issue. In this case NK being unrecognized is verifiable info. Therefore it needs to be included. Grandmaster 18:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

@G. Spurlin: How many of those sources are RS, Mr Spurlin? I really would like to know. (You know we have articles on the end of times etc; we might use those sources...) --E4024 (talk) 18:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Consensus[edit]

This is Grandmaster's proposed wording. "The independence of NK is recognized only by unrecognized or largely unrecognized Abkhazia, S.Ossetia and Transnistria, none of which are members of the international community". I generally like most of it, but it seems too long and POVish. I propose removing the unrecognized, since all three mutually recognized each other and the last part seems POV. Wikipedia defines International community as a phrase used in international relations to refer to all peoples, cultures and governments of the world. My proposition is "The independence of NK is recognized only by largely unrecognized Abkhazia, S.Ossetia and Transnistria", or "The independence of NK is recognized only by largely unrecognized Abkhazia, S.Ossetia and Transnistria, none of which are UN member states". George Spurlin (talk) 12:01, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

The statement that NK is unrecognized needs to remain, as it is sourced info. It is my not my personal idea or belief, but something that is supported by tons of reliable sources. We can add a clarification that NK is unrecognized by any de-jure state. Also, Transnistria is not largely unrecognized, it is totally unrecognized. Not a single UN member recognizes it. There must be a distinction between recognition by de-jure and de-facto states, it is not the same, as recognition by de-facto state means no change of status. But in any case, what is the point in adding the info about recognition by quasi-states in the intro? It does not change anything in the status of NK, and means nothing at all. But if it is really necessary to add this info, then we should make clear that NK has no international recognition, and is only recognized by states that are unrecognized themselves. I propose to leave everything as it is, and just add the line that "The independence of NK is recognized only by Abkhazia, S.Ossetia and Transnistria, none of which are UN member states". Grandmaster 18:42, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Here's a good explanation of concepts of de-jure and de-facto states: [4] Grandmaster 19:12, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
The statement that NK is unrecognized should be removed because it is a contradiction to facts. Yes, some international actors still refer to NK as "unrecognized" but this is the result of two factors: inertia and Azerbaijan's corrupt lobbying - see this [5]. Sprutt (talk) 18:29, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Inertia? Now are we going to go even before the deeds? Interesting... --E4024 (talk) 18:35, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
A. The European official deputies has already started visits to NK (France, Switzerland, Slovakia). B. NK delegations have visited Paris, Moscow, the US Congress, UN headquarters in NY, OSCE mediators visited NK and met with elected authorities of NK, C. Every year the US Congress allocates funds to Nagorno-Karabakh, its an official document signed and sealed by the US Congress, D. NK was recognized as a party in the conflict in 1994, when the peace treaty between Armenia, NKR and Azerbaijan was signed. Hablabar (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Visits by individuals mean nothing, they do not represent their governments. NK delegations were never received officially by any head of state. Financial aid by US Congress does not mean that USA recognize NK, the USA officially stated that they recognize NK as part of Azerbaijan, see statement of the Minsk Group co-chairs above. And there was no peace treaty "between Armenia, NKR and Azerbaijan", there was a cease fire agreement, but that is not a treaty or anything that could imply recognition of any status, Azerbaijan officially stated many times that it regards NK as part of its territory. So all the above arguments invalid, and above all are OR. --Grandmaster 20:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Hablabar for mentioning the extra reasons of why the term "unrecognized" cannot be used anymore. Sprutt (talk) 17:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
You guys are just engaging in original research. That is not allowed. According to the rules, we must stick to what the majority of third party reliable sources say. --Grandmaster 20:25, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Really? I am afraid the concept of recognition as we know it does not help much with your nationalist editing Sprutt. BTW have you ever edited anything in WP that did not have absolutely any "Armenian connection"? Are you an SPA? --E4024 (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
Tones of reliable sources refer to the period before 2008 recognition of NKR by Abkhazia and S. Osetia. See my note above about obligatory terms for being considered as State with Limited Recognition. There is no precondition to be a member of UN to be considered a state. NKR is recognized by a State - two states Abkhazia and Osetia. It's not up to us to interpret precise definitions the way we are interested in. The situation changed today and it needs to be shown in WP too. 517design (talk) 07:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Again, I see that there are loads of recent third party reliable sources considering NK unrecognized. The recognition by 2 other quasi states does not change this fact. According to the rules, we follow the prevailing scholarly opinion, and it is clear in this case. Here's the source that explains what unrecognized state is, check page 3 and further: [6] --Grandmaster 08:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
NKR has not become a recognized state but it has graduated from the "unrecognized state" status, and the article should reflect that. Sprutt (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
How? Most of sources still refer to it as an unrecognized state. By simple logic, if it is not recognized, as you admit, then it is unrecognized. Grandmaster 19:15, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
No. It is tempting to call it recognized but as a concession I suggest to throw the unsustainable "unrecognized" label into the trash bin and leave "de-facto independent state." References that it is part of Azerbaijan should also be removed. NKR's status is work-in-progress. Sprutt (talk) 19:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
And what to do with WP:Verify? Ignore and engage in original research? I think I have already demonstrated that most scholarly sources refer to NK as unrecognized even after 2008: [7] Grandmaster 19:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
All these books you mentioned in the link are of limited relevance since none of them bothered to acknowledge recognition of NKR by Abkh. and S.Oss. Additionally, support for NKR's recognition by Rhode Island, Massachusetts and Australia's South Wales took place not so long ago and this is not reflected in Google Books. Sprutt (talk) 21:53, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
A new WP principle? "Books that do not respond to Sprutt's POV have limited relevance." Interesting... --E4024 (talk) 21:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
This is a very old WP principle. Blindly supporting lazy and outdated cherry-picks is wrong. For instance, a ton of books suggests that supposedly NKR population includes Assyrians. Well, this is nonsense - there have been no Assyrians in NKR, before or after the conflict, or ever. This can be verified by the USSR censuses. But lazy academics continue parroting one another and including this nonsense in their writings. Sprutt (talk) 22:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Then you should write your own book or books and get them published by a prestigious institution, a renowned university perhaps, then I would use those sources in WP. Maybe you can begin with some articles in the NYT or IHT... --E4024 (talk) 22:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Not really. One should just sort down sources on contemporary developments by their relevancy, expose incongruities and suggest a way to reconcile. Sprutt (talk) 22:19, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Well, you cannot discard the most recent sources. In particular, the one that I mentioned above, which is specifically dedicated to the topic of the unrecognized state, and is published in 2012. Before arguing that some statelet is recognized, it would be better to identify what is meant by unrecognized state. The source says, inter alia, that unrecognized state is defined on the basis of 3 criteria, and the criterion No 2 is:

They have not gained international recognition, or even if they have been recognized by some states, they are still not full members of the international system of sovereign states. We consequently include what we could term "partially recognized states", such as Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which have been recognized by their patron state and three other states, and even Kosovo, which has been recognized by 70+ states.

So even Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Kosovo are unrecognized, or alternatively they could be called "partially recognized", but that does not apply to NK, which was not recognized by a single de jure state. Recognition by another unrecognized state means nothing in terms of status. Grandmaster 07:15, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The status of NKR / Nagorno Karabakh is in dispute, and making definitive statements such as "recognized" or "unrecognized" runs counter to reality and to academic sources. Recognition by "partially recognized" states and local influential states in key countries does not mean that NKR is recognized but it means departure from the "unrecognized" status. That's why limited recognition is a more proper term. Another option is to avoid the difficult recognition/"unrecognition" altogether. Being stubborn and filibustering development of articles is not a way forward. Sprutt (talk) 17:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
I have already quoted academic sources, they say that NK is unrecognized. I see no reason for removing a fact that could be verified from multiple reliable third party sources. And departure from the "unrecognized" status is just your personal opinion. Grandmaster 20:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Another point: the present text says that NKR is a "de facto independent but unrecognized" state. This is redundancy and nonsense. Are there de facto independent states that are recognized? No. So, it should either be "de facto independent" alone or "independent but unrecognized." As you see I am suggesting a number of different way to built a consensus while Grandmaster and E4024 are just stubbornly filibustering every good faith talk and WP: OWN the article. Sprutt (talk) 19:41, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
The combination of words "de facto independent" and "unrecognized" is quite common in the scholarly literature: [8]. And even exactly the same phrasing as in the article is also used often: [9] All your suggestions are aimed to removal of the fact that NK is unrecognized, but that is not possible, as it would contradict WP:VERIFY. We do not include personal beliefs, only verifiable information. But you can ask third opinion, if you wish. Grandmaster 20:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

"Unrecognized state" (sic)[edit]

Please make this discussion at the TP of the article about that unrecognized entity, not here. --E4024 (talk) 18:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree, this article is about the geographic and historical region, not the political entity. --Grandmaster 19:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
I have no idea what that means. This is a composite article that mostly discusses political history of the region. Sprutt (talk) 19:30, 28 October 2012 (UTC)


Nagorny Karabakh IS NOT an "internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan" as your article pretend backed by notorious Azerbaijani commentors. The references made under that allegation do not actually contain appropriate provisions.

For instance, the Statement of the Co-Chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group [10] declares that the Group members "do not recognize the independence of NK" only, which can't be interpreted as recognition of NK being a part of its neighbouring Azerbaijan. I.e., if one doesn't recognize the Antartics independent, it can't be interpreted as a recognition of Antarctics being a part of Australia, Argentina or whatever neighbouring country else.

212.34.225.50 (talk) 12:02, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Any reliable sources to support your claims? Brandmeistertalk 18:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Removal of tons of sourced statements[edit]

Some editors are here on a deleting spree of sourced ledes, alinea's and statements fueled by WP:JDL, brining arguments such as "dubious sources" and "removed because IP editor". This is unacceptable. Bring it to the talk page, or put citation needed templates at the parts you think that are not correct. - 94.210.203.230 (talk) 20:31, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

What is unacceptable is rv base on "This is insane" attitude. The sources used are unreliable, as explained. Web sources such as http://www.sras.org/nagorno-karabakh are unreliable and are just replete controversial statements, such as "In ancient times Karabakh was populated by Caucasian tribesmen who spoke a Lezgic language." Zimmarod (talk) 10:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Zimmarod, 94.210.203.230 is a banned sock, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Beh-nam/Archive. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:50, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
    • ^ Thomas D. Grant, The recognition of states: law and practice in debate and evolution (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger, 1999), chapter 1.