Talk:National Rifle Association

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Endorsements[edit]

Hi Folks, the Endorsements subsection includes the following...

"In 2011, the organization declined an offer to discuss gun control with U.S. President Barack Obama. However, at the same time, LaPierre said that "the NRA has supported proposals to prevent gun sales to the mentally ill, strengthen a national system of background checks and spur states to provide needed data."[1]"

I removed it once after trying to find a better place for it, but it seems like a POV "I told you so" kind of comment to me. Someone has returned it. What relevance does this have in this section?

References[edit]

  1. ^ CALMES, JACKIE (JACKIE). "N.R.A. Declines to Meet With Obama on Gun Policy". New York Times. Retrieved 15 March 2011.  Check date values in: |date= (help)

Ambrose Burnside a "gunsmith"?[edit]

Burnside, a West Point graduate, did invent a breech-loading rifle (the Burnside Carbine), and arranged to have that rifle manufactured for sale to the US Army. While Burnside Carbines were manufactured and used by the Army, Burnside himself profited little and was working in an executive position with the Illinois Central Railroad in 1861. While Burnside might be fairly described as an industrial 'gunmaker', the term "gunsmith" suggests a craft that Burnside never practiced.

The NRA is not a RS for self-serving exceptional claims about itself[edit]

The user Terrorist96 reverted this edit[1], citing WP:ABOUTSELF. The edit rationale is extremely disingenuous and shameless, given that WP:ABOUTSELF explicitly says that self-published sources should only be used when "the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim; it does not involve claims about third parties; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity". I advise the user to revert this himself to demonstrate good faith. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:03, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The edit rationale fits perfectly (don't call my rationale disingenuous/shameless). Saying they are the oldest civil rights organization is not unduly self-serving. Saying they are the bestest of the best civil rights organization would be. And it's not an exceptional claim either. And there are no claims of third parties or reason to doubt its authenticity. This is long-standing content and you need consensus to remove it. The lead also contains a similar statement cited to a third party so your self-published concerns don't apply there.Terrorist96 (talk) 16:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
ABC-CLIO is a crap press. References to this press have been removed from other sources, including the Irish slave myth page. Please explain how a group that promoted sports shooting is a "civil liberties organization". The Wikipedia makes zero mention of the NRA fighting for the rights of gun owners or lobbying politicians until 1934. The claim has also been contested in this Salon piece[2]. Please find any RS that refer to NRA as the "oldest civil rights organization". I've been trying for some time and coming up with nothing except the NRA saying this again and again about itself to lend legitimacy to itself. If you can't reliably source exceptional claims, they go out of the article. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
This is an organization that has been extensively covered by scholars and news outlets. It should be absolutely no problem substantiating claims about the organization. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Sources that describe the NAACP as the oldest civil rights organization: NPR[3], Baltimore Sun[4], NYU Press book[5], JHU Press "oldest+civil+rights"+history+professor&source=bl&ots=GmaBwUKHtT&sig=gS2qMtPb0VL-f_9H5_rsjaY73Gc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL9on2-dTWAhXLiRoKHSeQAZI4ChDoAQgmMAA#v=onepage&q=naacp%20%22oldest%20civil%20rights%22%20history%20professor&f=false, Harvard University Press"oldest+civil+rights"+history+professor&source=bl&ots=IDUCGxl4ce&sig=GzdA2sAgLpjdt_xjGDN_UuI9940&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL9on2-dTWAhXLiRoKHSeQAZI4ChDoAQgpMAE#v=onepage&q=naacp%20%22oldest%20civil%20rights%22%20history%20professor&f=false. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Sources that call NAD the oldest civil rights organization: NAD[6], Routledge book"national+Association+of+the+Deaf"+oldest+history&source=bl&ots=oCJE7cyd34&sig=CJo2rb1-mVWRWqDjhpL0SyI1l_A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi40L_M-dTWAhWMDxoKHdLiBskQ6AEIYTAL#v=onepage&q=%22national%20Association%20of%20the%20Deaf%22%20oldest%20history&f=false. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
ABC-CLIO is a crap press. Kindly link me to the RSN consensus that deems ABC-CLIO a "crap press" that should not be used. References to this press have been removed from other sources, including the Irish slave myth page. That's irrelevant. Please explain how a group that promoted sports shooting is a "civil liberties organization". That's not my job. The claim has also been contested in this Salon piece[7]. Yes, and that's why the second half of the sentence makes note of that. Please find any RS that refer to NRA as the "oldest civil rights organization". We already have, the ABC-CLIO publication, plus their own website per WP:ABOUTSELF. If you can't reliably source exceptional claims, they go out of the article. If you want to remove sourced, long-standing content, you need consensus.Terrorist96 (talk) 17:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
I've cited multiple reliable sources that contradict that the NRA is the oldest civil rights organization. You have a ABC-CLIO book that regurgitates NRA's own description of itself. If the NRA is the oldest civil rights organization, why you can't find a single academic book from a reputable press, peer-reviewed journal article or reliable news outlet that describes it as such? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:29, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
Just to summarize:
  • (1) We have two weak sources (Salon, Media Matters) that conflict with two other weak sources (NRA, ABC-CLIO book) as to the claim that the NRA is the "oldest civil rights organization".
  • (2) We have lots of top notch reliable sources (NPR, good university presses) that describe the NAACP as the "oldest civil rights organization".
  • (3) Even though the NRA has received extensive news coverage and scholarly attention, nobody can find anything in a good reliable source that substantiates the claim that it's the oldest civil rights organization. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I've cited multiple reliable sources that contradict that the NRA is the oldest civil rights organization. Again, it's been noted. Both statements are retained per NPOV. If the NRA is the oldest civil rights organization, why you can't find a single academic book from a reputable press, peer-reviewed journal article or reliable news outlet that describes it as such? We have. But here's more: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. We're now going in circles. Feel free to start an RfC if you feel so strongly about this.Terrorist96 (talk) 17:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Is this some kind of joke? Of the three sources that were accessible through Google Books, the two academic presses explicitly say that it's the NRA that calls itself the oldest civil rights organization. The authors of the books don't call it that. Do you know the difference between describing something and quoting the organization's self-description? The third source that can actually be accessed is "American Cowboy" magazine, a magazine that neither you, me or anyone else has read or heard about. So in a desperate effort to come up with RS, you cited books that can't be accessed, books that don't describe the NRA as the oldest civil rights org (they quote the NRA) and some random magazine. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm ignoring the discussion above because it seems to be spectacularly missing the point. Our article says, and I quote, The NRA's website says the organisation is .... The NRA ref is referencing that claim, by the NRA itself, which is fine. We don't need a secondary source saying that the NRA claims they are X. Moreover, we are not saying The NRA is ... - in which case an NRA ref would be, clearly, unacceptable. As it is, I don't see an issue, be it a claim by the NRA or by the NAACP. Saturnalia0 (talk) 00:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

The lede also states it in Wikivoice. That said, we generally don't let organizations make exceptional self-serving claims about themselves even if quoted, so both the Wiki-voice stuff and the NRA's political rhetoric don't belong. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 08:14, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Recent edit[edit]

  • Comment -- even if attributed to NRA, I find this content to by WP:UNDUE:
  • The NRA's website says the organisation is "America's longest-standing civil rights organization"...
I don't think it's appropriate and neutral to include this claim. I've removed it, along with the associated commentary on NAACP etc.

I'm preserving this content here by providing this link. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Do you guys even look at the archives. This has been discussed a lot. Like this RFC: [8] or this discussion [9] Niteshift36 (talk) 16:44, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Niteshift36, where has consensus for this been established? The first case is related but not the same and the second has no consensus, and your input was "it shouldn't change, this is getting old". Also, consensus can change. Don't dismiss an as-of-yet unresolved issue. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 21:40, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

The removed statement was that NRA claimed that status, it was not even a statement that it has that status. North8000 (talk) 17:31, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Use those, and other discussions, to look at the sources discussed before. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:36, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I certainly agree with K.e.coffman and the others that this claim certainly cannot be present in Wikipedia's own voice. If attributed in-text ("The NRA describes itself as..."), it's less obviously ridiculous, but still undue in the lead section. The claim is mentioned in the body of the article, and this should be sufficient.
This is especially true because the claim is an extraordinary one. A brief mention in the body that this is the NRA's own claim is probably fine. Neutralitytalk 03:38, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
And I would note that this claim is expressly contradicted by reliable sources, e.g.:
Even the sources that make reference to the NRA claim expressly say that the claim is only accepted by the right: The Encyclopedia of Politics says that the NRA "is the oldest civil rights organization in the United States from the perspective of the right wing in America"). Neutralitytalk 03:49, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Long standing edits require consensus to remove. The onus is on you. Start an RfC.Terrorist96 (talk) 04:19, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

We do have a consensus to remove it. It's untrue and unduly self-serving. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:46, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The edit had gone unchallenged since April 2016 when added by @Sir Joseph:. Where is this consensus you are speaking of? Must have missed that RfC...Terrorist96 (talk) 06:11, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
It is now challenged and been removed by multiple editors. You are the only one who wants to keep it, so you're edit warring against multiple editors, many of whom (including at least one administrator) who are far more experienced than yourself. You are the one who needs to keep discussing on this page, not restore it, and start that RfC.
BTW, to make this an official warning, you're close to 3RR. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
You're the one who wants to remove a long-standing edit. Onus is on you, not me.Terrorist96 (talk) 06:29, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
"Onus is on you" Oh, really? Since it's a challenged edit (& I'd remove it, too), I'd say the onus is on you to show why it should stay in. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 11:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Reliable sources dopn't seem to have an issue using the quote about being the oldest, attributing it to the NRA, [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], so I'm not sure why we have an issue with reporting that the NRA says it. Additionally, the Encyclopedia of Politics: The Left and the Right makes the statement [15] Niteshift36 (talk) 15:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

The issue is that some editors don't like. The quote must obviously be attributed to the NRA, just remove the wikivoice from the article and add the reliably sourced claim. Saturnalia0 (talk) 15:36, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Comment: The organization clearly claims to be the oldest civil rights organization and a number of reliable sources state the NRA says as much. Since few 3rd parties seem to agree and often when 3rd parties mention the claim they do in context of "The NRA says", it seems appropriate to mention the information in attributed (vs Wikipedia) voice. I see no reason to exclude the information from the lead assuming it is clearly attributed to the NRA. Springee (talk) 19:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
    • What other Wikipedia pages do is irrelevant. That said, as far as I can tell, the practice on Wikipedia pages on controversial or political organizations is to remove puffery and dubious self-serving claims from articles, especially ledes. When that type of text survives it's usually because it was inserted into ledes by advocates for the organization/individual or someone associated with the organization/individual, and nobody has been arsed to remove it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, what other pages do isn't entirely irrelevant. When this alleged "puffery" is repeated over and over by reliable sources, it stops being just "puffery" and becomes something we can attribute to the org. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:03, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: I agree with the majority that its best to remove as there are no reliable sources for this. In fact there are a lot more references that say another organization is. If kept it should left written that its the NRA self declaring itself and also not in the lead since a self declaration without support is not lead worthy, let alone should not be in it, in this case. I removed it from the lead, obvious from the comments and references here, but left it in the body for more discussion for others to try and find better references for inclusion. ContentEditman (talk) 00:18, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
The lead is a perfectly acceptable place for a self declaratory statement so long as it's not in Wikipedia voice. Many articles about company's and organizations will include self proclaimed statements. There is no reason why the NRA page shouldn't given that it's on the company's home page. I agree that there is consensus to remove the claim in Wikipedia voice. However, I think a better solution is to change it to an attributed claim. Articles about the NRA have noted that the NRA makes this claim (this establishes weight). The claim, while debatable, is acknowledged as true by some groups outside of the NRA (though typically politically allied with the NRA). A reasonable claim can be made to support the statement (The 2nd Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights and the NRA is focused on protecting that right... though, unlike the NAACP, it wasn't established for that purpose). Regardless, there is more than sufficient weight to support inclusion in the lead with appropriate attribution. Springee (talk) 00:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment -- I find this content to be undue, especially in the lead. The context that these claims are presented in often does not lend itself to simply restating it here. For example, from the Politico article linked above:
  • "At last year’s meeting in Louisville, CEO Wayne LaPierre referred to the 146-year-old NRA as the world’s “oldest, largest, and most effective” civil rights organization. Staunch NRA supporters, self-conscious of the group’s reputation as inhospitable to minorities, hearken back to a time when the gun rights organization did things like charter a black-run chapter in the 1950s so members could defend themselves against the Ku Klux Klan. (...) But there’s no escaping that whatever common ground might have existed between minorities and the NRA eroded as the group’s opposition to all forms of gun control became largely synonymous with the conservatism of the Republican Party and its predominantly white voters..."
Not every self-serving claim belongs in an encyclopedia. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • , so you're bringing in an editorial content to complain about a factual item? The lead is a perfect place to mention the age of the group. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I am not sure you followed all this discussion? I don't believe anyone is trying to remove the NRAs age, just the claim they are the oldest civil rights organization. That is not a fact and most references seem to show that clearly. ContentEditman (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • With numerous RS's repeating the claim and 2 independant books making the claim in their own, dismissing it out of hand doesn't feel right. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • The reliable sources are not reporting/making anything, they are just writing what someone else has said. That is very telling. If a news sources says "George Washington was the first president of the US..." is very different than "The George Washington history group says George Washington was the first president of the US...". The first statement is a statement of fact that can be easily proven. The 2nd is at best an dubious claim that the reporting agency will not make and will only say thats what that group says. And the books do not even come close to meeting the guidelines as a reliable source for such a statement. This claim, that has no reliable sources, should not be in the article, and definitely should not be in the lead. ContentEditman (talk) 13:40, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • You seriously need to stop claiming there's a consensus here. Yes, the RS's are reporting it.... they are reporting "the source said this", which is exactly what we're doing with the inclusion. Sources frequently do this for all sorts of things, whether it's claims of illegal conduct (the govt claims that X stole money) or other actions. The sources have reported the claim. Both books are RS's, despite your wishes otherwise. You claim the publisher is "crap", yet provide nothing to support it beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Why aren't you at RSN, getting support for that position instead of edit-warring here? Niteshift36 (talk) 14:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • By my count, five different editors have removed this claim from the lead. It has serious WP:WEIGHT & WP:POV issues. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a democracy.Terrorist96 (talk) 05:38, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
This constitutes "rough consensus" in my mind. The suggestion that its removal requires an RFC as a long standing edit does not hold water. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:40, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
[citation needed]Terrorist96 (talk) 05:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Please see WP:ROUGH CONSENSUS, which links to Rough consensus: "...consensus does not require that all participants agree although this is, of course, preferred". Does this clarify? K.e.coffman (talk) 06:02, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
  • You can't simply count people who removed it. I see at least 4 that have indicated that it should stay in the discussion. 5-4 isn't a rough consensus, that's just counting votes. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
I think there is consensus that the information should not be included in Wikipedia voice. There is not a consensus for total removal from the lead. Weight for the claim has been put forth. I don't think those in favor of out right removal have made strong a policy based case. The fact that the material has been there for a while would suggest to me that the smallest change needed to address the consensus concern, Wikipedia voice, should be made. That means add attribution rather than total removal. Springee (talk) 10:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2017[edit]

The birthday for the NRA is wrong on Wikipedia. Wiki says Nov 16 1871 and in fact its Nov 17 1871. This can be verified on nra.org and it says"After being granted a charter by the state of New York on November 17, 1871, the NRA was founded. Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside, who was also the former governor of Rhode Island and a U.S. senator, became the fledgling NRA's first president." Koalame (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done First know that organizations don't have 'birthdays'. Wikipedia only mentioned 'founding day' which is sourced to NY Times and it may not be necessarily same day as the day of granting charter.  — Ammarpad (talk) 11:47, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Opening Article Claim[edit]

Hi. This article opens with the phrase, "The National Rifle Association of America (NRA) is an American nonprofit organization that advocates for gun rights and civil liberties." That is a sweeping statement, especially the last claim that argues that apparently, according to the Wikipedia editor's assertion that the NRA advocates for civil rights. This suggests and implies, assuming you have reasonable logical skills, that the NRA also advocates for the civil rights of victims of guns. Is that true? Has the NRA ever argued on behalf of those that have been threatened, assaulted or killed because of guns? Has the NRA ever advocated on their behalf? The opening sentence can make this claim, but it needs (unless this is meant to be a public relations article) to clarify whose civil rights are they protecting. Secondly, guns by themselves (even under the U.S. Constitution) do not have any rights at all - only people do. So this is simply an erroneous claim. Miguel Escopeta has somehow included a condition surrounding individuals but that seems to have absolutely nothing to do with either statement, since the previously revised statement of including owners and carriers, obviously includes individuals as part of the plural rubric. Other than that, the exclamatory statement that includes all and any civil liberties pertaining to guns is a tremendous overreach, as is the current statement that literally says guns have rights and civil liberties. To my understanding, it is the people who use or carry guns that the NRA advocates for, no one else. As such, the opening statement needs to be revised to be clear about the advocacy of the NRA. Regards, Stevenmitchell (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

  • I posted this here to articulate why I made the earlier changes that were then undone by an editor (with no accompanying intelligent explanation). In lieu of that, and to avoid confrontation, I have added the above arguments. If the explanation is not sufficient please contact me before you erase my changes, and I will elucidate it further. It should be simple - guns do not have 'rights and civil liberties'; people do. However, the current opening sentence states that guns have rights and civil liberties. That is not true. Regards... Stevenmitchell (talk) 04:08, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
The lead paragraph should be changed, in my opinion. In the U.S., civil liberties includes many rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, the right to vote, and so on. The NRA advocates for the right to keep and bear arms, but not for all the other civil liberties, so the lead as written could confuse or mislead our readers. Another thing: The NRA doesn't just advocate for gun rights. It also promotes various shooting sports (such as different kinds of target shooting) and teaches firearm safety. That should also be mentioned in the lead paragraph, even though the gun rights thing gets a lot more press coverage. Mudwater (Talk) 05:09, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
A literal reading of that line does suggest rights for guns & not owners; AFAIK, no sensible person is reading it that way. Nevertheless, clarity is preferable. As for NRA protecting civil rights more broadly, that's been argued & argued, & AFAIK, (something like) consensus was reached; this looks like yet another attempt to a) re-open the debate & b) win it. When do you propose an end to that? When the page calls NRA fascists & guns demonic tools of Satan? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 05:17, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Speaking only for myself, I missed some of the previous arguing, but I think a lot of it was about whether or not the NRA is a civil rights organization. That's not what I'm talking about. The lead paragraph makes it sound like the NRA advocates for freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. -- but they don't, they advocate for the right to keep and bear arms. Some people say that defending the Second Amendment has the effect of enhancing all civil liberties, but any such effect would be indirect -- the NRA is not engaged in directly advocating for those other civil liberties. So "advocates for gun rights and civil liberties" is misleading, or confusing. And redundant, because gun rights *are* a civil liberty. I would propose something along the lines of "The National Rifle Association of America (NRA) is an American nonprofit organization that advocates for gun rights, and promotes shooting sports and firearms safety." Mudwater (Talk) 12:26, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this recent "and civil liberties" edit -- inserted without explanation - is (1) not supported by the cited sources (which describe the NRA as a gun rights group, plainly) and (2) is misleading (it indicates that the NRA is involved in broader civil liberties debates, which is not the case). Neutralitytalk 05:43, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I changed the wording so that it is clear it advocates for gun rights as a civil liberty. Sir Joseph (talk) 05:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Sir Joseph, what specific source supports this text? Thanks, Neutralitytalk 05:50, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
The US Bill of Rights, Civil_liberties_in_the_United_States#Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms, just as the ACLU protects civil liberties. Sir Joseph (talk) 05:53, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
No, that's original research (and in any case does not address the claim made in text, which is about the NRA specifically, and not about the right to keep and bear arms). Do you have a specific source that states that the NRA regards itself as a civil liberties organization, or that the NRA regards gun rights as a civil liberty? Neutralitytalk 05:58, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
The sky is blue[citation needed]Saturnalia0 (talk) 11:26, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
So again, no reliable sources. Let's review.
  • Not supported by any of the references actually cited.
  • Recently added content challenged on this talk page by multiple editors.
  • Misleadingly implies that the organization is involved in broader issues (like free speech, free press, etc.) - something contradicted by the body of the article, which notes that the NRA is a single-issue organization.
  • Even if cited, is redundant (lead section already notes that NRA claims to be oldest civil rights organization).
Neutralitytalk 15:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── you're being slightly dishonest. You're the only one who commented on my wording. The comments above are on different wording. And indeed, the reason the nra fights for gun rights is because it's a civil liberty. That should be in the first sentence.Sir Joseph (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Why? We already mention that the NRA claims to be the U.S.'s oldest civil rights organization, in the lead section. And again, the sources describe the NRA as a gun rights group 99% of the time. We lack sources showing that is routinely described by others as a "civil liberties group" - nor do we even have sources showing that the NRA bills itself as a "civil liberties" group. Neutralitytalk 22:02, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
I would, by the way, be perfectly fine with something cited to this in the appropriate section (not the lead section), if desired: "The NRA considers its cause particularly patriotic because it sees itself as a defender of constitutional rights." Jessamyn Conrad, What You Should Know about Politics — But Don't: A Nonpartisan Guide to the Issues that Matter (Skyhorse Publishing, 2012: 2nd edition), p. 227 (link). Something like this in the body would be appropriate weight, well-cited, etc., unlike the language shoehorned in earlier. Neutralitytalk 22:12, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
you're missing my point. This has nothing to do with the nra or their claim. This is merely saying that gun rights in the USA is a civil liberty.Sir Joseph (talk) 23:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
If it has "nothing to do with the NRA," why the heck should it be in the article on the NRA?? Neutralitytalk 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Because it's about gun rights, which is about the NRA. Gun rights in the US is a civil liberty, so it's not like an organization who might advocate for something merely because they feel it's a good idea, or they want to improve something. Advocating for this, is because it is a civil liberty, which is why the ACLU sometimes agrees with the NRA because it is a civil liberty. So it's perfectly reasonable to say the NRA advocates for gun rights as a civil liberty, as opposed to the AAA who advocates for motorists, which is not necessarily a civil liberty. Sir Joseph (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
You keep repeating this, but bring forth no reliable sources that actually discuss the NRA in these terms. Neutralitytalk 23:57, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
[[16]] "The Institute for Legislative Action (ILA) is the lobbying arm of the NRA. Established in 1975, ILA is committed to preserving the right of all law-abiding individuals to purchase, possess and use firearms for legitimate purposes as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution." Sir Joseph (talk) 00:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
Does not describe the group as a "civil liberties group," and in any case is self-sourced, so could not be used for claim in wikivoice. Neutralitytalk 00:39, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
As the civil liberty article points out, in the US, civil right and civil liberty are used interchangeably. (And here is an article from the ACLU where they were against a gun control measure, the last paragraph calls it a civil right, [[17]]) Sir Joseph (talk) 00:44, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
(1) If they are interchangeable, then the text is redundant, since the NRA's claim to be a civil rights group is already in the lead. (2) The ACLU blog post doesn't mention the NRA at all (WP:SYNTH). (3) Even if the ACLU blog post did make such a statement, this source is not a reliable one for such a claim in Wikipedia's own voice. Neutralitytalk 00:54, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
I really don't understand what you're not getting. Protecting gun rights in the USA is because gun rights is a civil liberty. It has nothing to do with the NRA or the ACLU. That the NRA describes itself as one thing is irrelevant. The NRA (and many other organizations) protect gun rights AS A CIVIL LIBERTY. And the ACLU is most definitely a RS. To me it just seems you have a bias and you are unwilling to accept any edit to the contrary. It is as pointed out above, a WP:BLUE issue. Gun rights is a civil liberty issue and should be the main sentence. That the NRA calls itself the oldest group is fine as well, but it doesn't take away that in the US gun groups are protective of gun rights as a civil liberty. Sir Joseph (talk) 01:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
This is just your ipse dixit. The bottom line is that this text fails the initial threshold requirement of having a reliable source that directly supports the assertion. (And, even if there was, this would be redundant and undue weight). Neutralitytalk 01:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

"and civil liberties" does not belong there unless it can be sourced. I'm only aware of the organization being described as a "gun rights" advocacy group. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:55, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Why not? Gun ownership in the US is a civil liberty. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:49, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Agree; it does not belong in the lead and is dubious at best. Especially with no real support. ContentEditman (talk) 21:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Philando Castile undue weight[edit]

I've tagged this section in the article as having undue weight. First, I see this as a WP:RECENT issue. Second, as a singular incident what does this tell us about the NRA as a whole. We have to keep this in context of an organization that is around 150 years old. The section in the article is a basic he said she said that seems to have no real value in understanding the organization and the incident doesn't have context outside of just this one event. As is I think the paragraph should be removed. However, if the content fits into other sections about the NRA then it should be integrated into those sections rather than being a stand alone criticism paragraph. It doesn't seem like it should have the same weight as some of the other topics in that section. It's worth noting that criticism/controversy sections in general are discouraged as they are ripe for becoming dumping grounds for what ever random, negative article shows up. Springee (talk) 04:54, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't believe that the recent edits have addressed the WIEGHT concerns. They did add context but this is a singular incident in the 150 year history of the organization. Controversies like the NRA's handling of mass shootings are relevant because the issue comes up more than once. This is a singular incident and it isn't clear how this reflects on the broader history or outlook of the organization. WP:RECENT applies here. If there is a section on racism or evidence of organizational racism then this material would support that boarder topic. As is the section should be removed. Springee (talk) 01:23, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. It's RECENT and WEIGHT. This was a very unfortunate incident, but criticism of the NRA over it was a brief flash in the news pan. It doesn't warrant inclusion. Anastrophe (talk) 02:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree this should be changed to selective support of gun owners due to race or something similar and use the Castile as just one of many examples. I searched and there seems to be quite a few articles about selective protection of gun owners by the NRA when you look at the race of the gun owner. I would support you editing it to include the other pieces and change the title to it as well. https://newrepublic.com/article/112322/gun-control-racist or http://www.mtv.com/news/2900230/the-really-really-racist-history-of-gun-control-in-america/ are just a couple with a simple search. ContentEditman (talk) 02:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Neither of the links you provide support what you claim. Those are about NRA support for legislation, which the authors imply was racially motivated, not about the NRA selectively supporting gun owners due to race. It's a conflation. There's no evidence that the NRA supports white gun owners but not African American gun owners - only speculation. Anastrophe (talk) 03:23, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Agreed that those articles and the Castile incident are not well correlated. I propose giving it 30 days to either be better integrated or removed. As is, I don't see how to better integrate the text since it doesn't seem to be part of a larger pattern. Springee (talk) 03:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • It doesn't even merit mention. A few outlets that have a history of adversarial behavior towards the NRA decided to try to stir up controversy. The NRA doesn't come out in support of every person, so this becomes a case of singling out one person and making the unsubstantiated claim that it was due to race. Since it makes (or implies) a controversial claim that is under dispute, I have removed the section until consensus is achieved. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I agree that it is undue weight. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I changed the section from being about Castile into a race double-standard section[18]. The NRA has indisputably come under criticism for a perceived lack of advocacy for black gun owners and these criticisms have been reported in reliable sources. There are now ten reliable sources in a fairly brief sub-section on the topic, so there shouldn't any problems in terms of WP:DUE. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

It may be "indisputable" the there was some criticism but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not the short-lived talking points by anti-NRA outlets is really relevant enough for inclusion. Stacking up a bunch of sources doesn't really solve weight. Just declaring it to be solved isn't going to fly. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Are you arguing that AP, WaPo, CNN, Politico etc. are not RS? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
What in that response would make you draw a conclusion that absurd? Or are you unfamiliar with the concept that just appearing in a RS doesn't grant something an express ticket to inclusion? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
You were rambling about "short-lived talking points by anti-NRA outlets". That's why I asked. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • No my friend, there was no "rambling" in that 4 sentence response. Did I mention the AP, WaPo, CNN etc? Did I even use the word "reliable" or the shortcut "RS"? No? So was that was just some stuff you fabricated to be sarcastic? Niteshift36 (talk) 19:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Your sources, including HuffPo is not RS, and you are cherry picking to suit your agenda. Why not quote Colin Noir? You violated DS and BRD by reinserting this content while a discussion is ongoing. Sir Joseph (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
*Sigh* So the argument is really going to be that AP, WaPo, CNN, Politico etc. are not RS? The HuffPo source is an op-ed by a Professor of History and the text that uses this source attributes it to that professor (per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV). I have no idea who Colin Nair is. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • If you want to know who he is, read your own sources. He's prominently mentioned in one. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Please pay attention and NOT fabricate arguments that aren't being made. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposed change[edit]

I believe that this text meets Springee's concerns, as well as concerns over WP:DUE, and should therefore be included:

The NRA has come under criticism for the appearance that the organization only defends gun rights for non-black Americans.[1][2] Critics note that the NRA, which is typically quick to defend gun rights when the rights of white gun owners appear to have been violated, has stayed silent or offered muted and delayed responses in cases involving gun rights and black gun owners.[1][2][3][4][5]

The NRA came under criticism from some of its own members and other gun rights advocates in June 2017 for its silence on the shooting of Philando Castile by a police officer at a traffic stop.[6][7] Castile had a valid firearm permit, informed the police officer about his gun, and was subsequently fatally shot by the police officer when he was allegedly attempting to retrieve his wallet.[6][8] According to The Washington Post, the NRA has typically "been quick to defend other gun owners who made national news", but stayed silent on the Castile shooting.[6] Some critics attributed the NRA's silence to the fact that Castile was black.[3][4][5] On July 9, an NRA spokeswoman commented on the incident, saying it was "a tragedy" that "could have been avoided". Further comments were made by NRA spokeswoman, Dana Loesch, who stated "He was also in possession of a controlled substance (marijuana) and a firearm simultaneously, which is illegal."[9][10]

According to Robert Slayton, Professor of History at Chapman University, there is a precedence to NRA silence on gun-rights cases involving African-Americans.[2] Slayton mentioned as an example the case of Earl D. Brown, an African-American security guard who carried a licensed weapon and was shot by police after Brown raised his hands and said "I'm security"; the NRA did not comment on the case.[2] The widow of Brown criticized the NRA for its silence, "Honestly, I hear the N.R.A. talking about the right to bear arms. He had the right to bear his that night; they just never told us he wouldn’t have the right to life. It seems like white men and police officers are the only ones who have the right to bear arms in this country."[11] Critics of the NRA also noted the organization's lack of a response and failure to offer condolences after Alton Sterling was killed by police while legally carrying a firearm.[1]

Comments? (Can someone add a reference list or hide the references below? Thanks, I don't know how to do it.) Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:59, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b c "Dallas Shootings Underscore NRA Hypocrisy, Critics Say". 
  2. ^ a b c d Slayton, Robert (2016-07-12). "The NRA Is Racist". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2017-12-05. 
  3. ^ a b CNN, Deena Zaru,. "Activists accuse NRA of racism for silence over Philando Castile". CNN. Retrieved 2017-12-03. 
  4. ^ a b Newton, Creede. "Gun control's racist past and present". www.aljazeera.com. Retrieved 2017-12-03. 
  5. ^ a b "NRA offers tepid comment on police shooting of Minnesota man". POLITICO. Retrieved 2017-12-03. 
  6. ^ a b c "Some gun owners are disturbed by the Philando Castile verdict. The NRA is silent". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-06-21. 
  7. ^ Valentine, Matt. "How the NRA conquered Washington and abandoned gun owners like me". chicagotribune.com. Retrieved 2017-06-21. 
  8. ^ "What the police officer who shot Philando Castile said about the shooting". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-07-31. 
  9. ^ Jacob Sullum (July 10, 2017). "NRA Breaks Its Silence on Philando Castile Shooting". Reason. Retrieved July 10, 2017. 
  10. ^ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dana-loesch-explains-why-the-nra-didnt-defend-philando-castile/article/2631154
  11. ^ Eligon, John; Robles, Frances (2016-07-08). "Police Shootings Highlight Unease Among Black Gun Owners". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2017-12-05. 
(Edit: More sources: Politico[19], McClathchy[20], WNYC[21], The Guardian[22][23], Atlanta Journal-Constitution[24]. This brings the number of reliable sources up to 17. There are more sources available by the way.) Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Have you noticed that most of these sources center around 1 event (yes, others are mentioned in some articles, but it's mainly about Castile)) and are mostly within a 30-45 day period? In other words, this isn't something that got continuing coverage. If you removed Castile from this entry, there'd be next to nothing. The sources you used are mostly left-leaning and often adversarial to the NRA. Of course they want to create dissention. They tried, it didn't last, the media moved on.....and you want Wikipedia to dwell there. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:33, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Not just that, but even if you want to include this, it is one sided without any opposing viewpoint. But I do agree with you that a one time event is not worthy of inclusion in the article. I do imagine (I haven't checked) that this can be mentioned in the Castille article Sir Joseph (talk) 19:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, the Castile article only gives the NRA responses and doesn't make insinuations about racism. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:55, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • If you have any text you want to add, suggest it. The text already includes NRA's stated reason for staying silent on Castille. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • (1) Half are from the summer of 2016. The other half is from 2017, with the most recent source being from Oct 2017. (2) The sources are not left-leaning and adversarial to the NRA. These are high-quality RS. (3) These are eleven RS dispersed over a period of 15 months, with the most recent one in Oct 2017. The criteria that's set for inclusion is ludicrously high (I'd be astonished if this is a criteria that you and Sir Joseph apply in a principled manner). It's one of the most comprehensively sourced sub-sections in the article despite the fact that the sub-section is tersely worded. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • You confuse high quality and left-leaning. I don't dispute the reliable source status of the NY Times, WaPo or CNN. But they have a demonstrated left lean. Just like the WSJ (a high quality source) has a right lean. US News & World Report used to be a high quality source when it was primarily a print magazine. Lately, it's not. Still, you did perform a sleight of hand (unintentional, I'm sure). 3 of your 2017 sources are all connected. 2 are WaPo, published on the same day. The Chicago Times is actually a WaPo op-ed piece, published within 2 days of the other two. So out of 6 sources that are 2017 (the others are Al Jazeera, Reason and the Examiner), half are from the same left-leaning source within 2 days. The opther 5 are 2016, mostly within a 30-45 day period. The HuffPo source (from 2016) is an op-ed from a history professor in a small college. BTW, it's comical that you say you don't know who Colion Noir is when he's prominently featured in the CNN source you cite. Makes me wonder if you read the sources or just find what supports your POV? Niteshift36 (talk) 20:19, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • The HuffPo is an opinion piece and most certainly not RS. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:11, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • The HuffPo piece is just one of many references and was also written by a professor of History. Calling out just a single reference and ignoring the author is disingenuous. ContentEditman (talk) 20:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Well the Huffington Post is one, the CNN "#Get Political" is one, the Chicago Tribune is one, and the Reason is one. So about a quarter of the sources are opinion or commentary. The author is secondary if the source is a blog post with no editorial oversight. PackMecEng (talk) 23:51, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Can you please specify what your criteria for inclusion are? So far, the bar just keeps getting raised and raised. I get the impression that there is literally nothing that could get you to approve the inclusion of this material. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:36, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • It's not my bar for inclusion, it's Wikipedia's. HuffPo may be RS, but not an opinion piece. In general opinion pieces are not RS for content. This is all beside the fact that the entire subject does not belong on this page. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:40, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • So, besides an attributed HuffPo op-ed by a professor of history (which is totally fine per WP:NEWSORG: "When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint. If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact"), what exactly can be done to get you to approve some version of the text? How many reliable sources need to be cited? What sentences need to be tweaked? What text needs to be added? This looks like WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Did you miss the part where I wrote that even if you have RS this topic is not for this article? Sir Joseph (talk) 21:05, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose the suggested change. First, Snooganssnoogans is making a good faith effort to fix the section so I don't want to discredit that effort. I think this could be broken into two sections/subsections IF sufficient sources can be found. First, we have an issue of "is the NRA racist"? A number of sources have made that claim. However, I think many suffer from recentism. It's no secret that there are many sources that want to tar the NRA so accusations of racism after a non-justified police shooting make for a great anti-NRA message. However, we should set some Google filters here and ask, how many articles can we find from before the Castile shooting? That would help us decide if this is a recentism issue or something that has been reported for a long time.
The other potential topic is the NRA's relationship with police departments. After the Castile shooting I recall at least a few sources suggesting it wasn't race but a fear of a police backlash that kept the NRA quiet. Consider this WP article [[25]]. It doesn't talk about racism but instead talks about how the NRA used to oppose many police practices but now seems to side with the police and keep quite in cases of police misconduct. Personally I think that would be a far better topic for this section vs the weak accusations of racism at a time when "racism" is tossed out as quickly as a claim of bad breath or bad hair. I would note that my very brief search for pre-2016 articles related to this second topic also turned up very little. I would also note that the WP article undermines the whole racist NRA-Castile angle. It notes a large number of cases where the NRA was quite after police shot legal gun owners who weren't breaking the law. Rather than the issue being the NRA silent on police misconduct directed at black gun owners it seems the issue is the NRA silent on ALL issues of police misconduct for fear of backlash at the local PD level. Springee (talk) 01:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
(1) Are we seriously at a point now where the text supported by 17 reliable sources is not OK but we are totally OK with creating a whole new subsection about something entirely different on the basis of one WaPo op-ed? *Sigh* I'm taking this for a RfC. I see absolutely no way to resolve this with you guys: just look at how the goalposts have shifted throughout this discussion. And you have all crapped on the reliable sources as if they are not RS, which seriously undermines your credibility. (2) If you want to create a subsection about criticism that the NRA is too pro-police, do that! I would never in a million years remove that text if it's reliably sourced. What makes zero sense is for you, me or any other editor to decide which criticisms are legit and which are not, and to remove or keep RS content on that basis. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:02, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't think people agree that we have 17 RSs on the subject. You have 11 references and I don't agree that all of them really support the claim being made. Take the first one [[26]], it shows examples of the NRA not protesting shootings of black gun owners by police but doesn't actually show that the NRA does protest when a white gun owner is shot in a similar circumstance. After that most of the article is typical anti-NRA stuff but not really about the subject at hand. The HuffPo opinion article is largely the same. Aljazeera is more about the issues with laws that the NRA wasn't part of. Politico, and first WP articles don't support the claim that this is widespread. The Chicago Tribune and the second WP articles don't even mention the word "race" so they don't support the argument you are trying to make. The Reason article actually supports the WP article I linked above. It supports the idea that the NRA is silent because they don't want to antagonize local law enforcement. The WashExmr features a clip from The Daily Show (!) and is hardly an insightful article. It doesn't support the motivated by racism angle. Finally, the NYT is talking about police shootings of blacks but doesn't mention the NRA. So beyond the issue of recentism you really don't have a compelling set of articles to support the content you are trying to add. Remember that when you are talking about a ~150 year old organization we shouldn't include flash in the pan content. Springee (talk) 03:28, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
This is precisely why this talk is futile. What a bald-faced set of lies and misleading gibberish (with the exception of the WashExmr which someone else added). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
At this point, launch the RFC you talked about or drop the WP:Stick. The aspirations are getting disruptive. PackMecEng (talk) 03:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
{ping|Snooganssnoogans}, I'm OK if you don't agree with me but accusing me of lying is violation of WP:CIVIL. If you disagree show us where I made a mistake in my summary of the articles. Springee (talk) 04:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
The NYT does mention the NRA. The HuffPo op-ed by the history prof is literally titled "The NRA is Racist" and about the NRA's silence in the Castile case and other cases, yet it's "not really about the subject at hand"? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:44, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
From the reference list above, NYT article, [[27]], you are correct, I searched for "NRA", not "N.R.A." The last paragraph mentioned the NRA, a throw away quote by the widow. Sorry, that is quoting the opinion of the widow, not the view if the NYT. The HuffPo is an op-ed and as I said before, the intro claims racism but as I said before, they aren't showing that this is actually racism vs pro-police silence. Again, the HuffPo is an opinion article from a source that is very anti-gun and works to appeal to emotion vs reason. I do think the NRA being reluctant to criticize law enforcement should be added to the article and there is a lot more information that we could use to support such a claim. Springee (talk) 04:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

RfC on advocacy for black gun owners[edit]

Should the following text be added to a subsection entitled "Lack of advocacy for black gun owners" in the "Criticism" section:

The NRA has come under criticism for insufficiently defending gun rights for African-Americans.[1][2][3] Critics say that the NRA is typically quick to defend gun rights when the rights of white gun owners appear to have been violated but has stayed silent or offered muted and delayed responses in cases involving gun rights and black gun owners.[1][4][5][6][7][3][8][9] The NRA rejects the accusations of racial bias.[1] Others have argued that the NRA's inaction in prominent gun rights cases involving black gun owners, such as the case of Philando Castile, is not due to racial bias but is instead likely due to overly zealous support for law enforcement.[10][2]

The NRA came under criticism from some of its own members and other gun rights advocates in June 2017 for its silence on the shooting of Philando Castile by a police officer at a traffic stop.[11][12] Castile had a valid firearm permit, informed the police officer about his gun, and was subsequently fatally shot by the police officer when he was allegedly attempting to retrieve his wallet.[11][13] According to The Washington Post, the NRA has typically "been quick to defend other gun owners who made national news", but stayed silent on the Castile shooting.[11] Some critics attributed the NRA's silence to the fact that Castile was black.[4][5][6] On July 9, an NRA spokeswoman commented on the incident, saying it was "a tragedy" that "could have been avoided". Further comments were made by NRA spokeswoman, Dana Loesch, who stated "He was also in possession of a controlled substance (marijuana) and a firearm simultaneously, which is illegal."[14][15]

Adam Winkler, professor of constitutional law at the UCLA School of Law, noted that the NRA promoted gun control legislation in the 1920s and 1930s with the intent to reduce gun ownership by racial minorities.[16][17][18] Winkler added that it was under this legislation that Martin Luther King Jr. had an application for a concealed carry license turned down in 1956 when he applied for one after his house was firebombed.[16][18] Winkler also argues that the Gun Control Act of 1968, which the NRA took credit for, was motivated out of a fear of black radicals and race riots.[16] According to Robert Slayton, Professor of History at Chapman University, there is a precedence to NRA silence on gun-rights cases involving African-Americans.[9] Slayton mentioned as an example the case of Earl D. Brown, an African-American security guard who carried a licensed weapon and was shot by police after Brown raised his hands and said "I'm security"; the NRA did not comment on the case.[9] The widow of Brown criticized the NRA for its silence, "Honestly, I hear the N.R.A. talking about the right to bear arms. He had the right to bear his that night; they just never told us he wouldn’t have the right to life. It seems like white men and police officers are the only ones who have the right to bear arms in this country."[19] Critics of the NRA also noted the organization's lack of a response and failure to offer condolences after Alton Sterling was killed by police while legally carrying a firearm.[1]

Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:26, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b c d "Dallas Shootings Underscore NRA Hypocrisy, Critics Say". usnews.com. 
  2. ^ a b Beckett, Lois (2016-07-10). "Philando Castile's killing puts NRA's gun rights mission at a crossroads". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  3. ^ a b "Why African-Americans are gun-shy about the NRA". myajc. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  4. ^ a b CNN, Deena Zaru,. "Activists accuse NRA of racism for silence over Philando Castile". CNN. Retrieved 2017-12-03. 
  5. ^ a b Newton, Creede. "Gun control's racist past and present". www.aljazeera.com. Retrieved 2017-12-03. 
  6. ^ a b "NRA offers tepid comment on police shooting of Minnesota man". POLITICO. Retrieved 2017-12-03. 
  7. ^ "For black gun owners, bearing arms is a civil rights issue". mcclatchydc. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  8. ^ After the Castile Verdict, Some Ask: Where is The NRA?, retrieved 2017-12-06 
  9. ^ a b c Slayton, Robert (2016-07-12). "The NRA Is Racist". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2017-12-05. 
  10. ^ "Opinion | How the NRA's allegiance to cops undermines its credibility on gun rights". Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  11. ^ a b c "Some gun owners are disturbed by the Philando Castile verdict. The NRA is silent". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-06-21. 
  12. ^ Valentine, Matt. "How the NRA conquered Washington and abandoned gun owners like me". chicagotribune.com. Retrieved 2017-06-21. 
  13. ^ "What the police officer who shot Philando Castile said about the shooting". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2017-07-31. 
  14. ^ Jacob Sullum (July 10, 2017). "NRA Breaks Its Silence on Philando Castile Shooting". Reason. Retrieved July 10, 2017. 
  15. ^ http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/dana-loesch-explains-why-the-nra-didnt-defend-philando-castile/article/2631154
  16. ^ a b c "Gun Control Is "Racist"?". New Republic. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  17. ^ Winkler, Adam. "The Secret History of Guns". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  18. ^ a b Winkler, Adam (2016-07-15). "The right to bear arms has mostly been for white people". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2017-12-06. 
  19. ^ Eligon, John; Robles, Frances (2016-07-08). "Police Shootings Highlight Unease Among Black Gun Owners". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2017-12-05. 
  • Oppose The primary issue is WP:RECENT. This section was born out of a section discussing the criticism of the NRA for not speaking out against the police shooting of Castile. Many claimed this was due to racism though other sources have said its due to the NRA not wanting to antagonize local police departments. As I outlined above, many of the above references don't support the NRA doesn't support black gun owners narrative or in some cases they support it poorly by citing examples of the NRA not speaking out for a black gun owner but failing to show that the NRA does speak out when a white or other ethnicity owner is shot by police. The final paragraph is largely referencing two anti-gun, anti-NRA writers and shouldn't be considered a broader view on the subject. The laws in question are older and it isn't clear to what extent the NRA is responsible for the actual legislation in question. Furthermore I don't believe that we should use 1920s era legislation as evidence of a current controversy or problem with the organization. Many things have changed in nearly 100 years. Springee (talk) 04:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)+
I am not understanding what you are saying? First you say its a recent issue and should not be included. Then you go on to say we should ignore the history as things have changed yet the current events are to recent? You seem to be dancing between the 2 things that when combined are the guidelines for inclusion in that there is a history of this and it still happens today. And the references seem to support that as well. You say oppose but your reasoning as a whole seems to support adding it per wikipedias rules for inclusion. ContentEditman (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
There are two issues being conflated here. The first is if the NRA is supporting racist laws. That is a historical question and would generally focus on laws pasted in the 1980s and earlier. The second is if the NRA is racist in its support for individuals who's rights have been violated by the state. These sources have focused on Castile and a few other cases but as the WP already pointed out, that isn't an issue of race, but an issue of the NRA being torn between supporting local law enforcement and gun owners. The accusations of recent racism really don't hold water when one looks at the evidence presented. The articles that claim the NRA is racist due to not speaking out about the Castile shooting ignore that the NRA didn't speak out about several similar shootings where the victim wasn't black. It seems that the public was demanding a statement specifically because of the current political climate around BLM type issues. This section is trying to fit the "racism" label on events/issues as a way to tar the NRA vs because the label really fits the facts. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support The many references show this has been an issue for a long time. The references also make point that it is not a singular event or only a recent observation, but one that has been around and brought up many times. This wholly meets inclusion guidelines and the many independent and reliable references also support it. ContentEditman (talk) 12:43, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. The content is reliably sourced and the text adheres to the sources. There are 16 reliable sources (the Chicago Tribune op-ed is incorrectly used, and I can't vouch for Reason and the Washington Examiner which were added by other editors originally) that substantiate the text. Statements of opinion and criticism are attributed to critics and/or specific individuals. Statements made by scholars are attributed to them. There is no problem of WP:RECENTISM given both the abundant sourcing (which demonstrates that the text is notable and of lasting importance) and the fact that criticism of the NRA's lack of advocacy for racial minorities can be traced to events in the 1920s/1930s and 1960s. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 12:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
As I've said, most of the sources don't support the thrust of this section. As they are assembled this could be viewed as WP:SYN. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
That is completely and utterly false. Every single sentence adheres exactly to the sources (with the exception of the three sources I mentioned above). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
No, much of the material doesn't support the conclusion. The thrust of the section is the NRA has acted based on racism. Some of the sources support that but many don't. An article that states the NRA was slow to or didn't talk about Castile isn't supporting the long term racism narrative. Perhaps the best way to do this is lay out which articles you believe support the overall thesis of the section. Then we can decide if those are reliable or not. I've already stated why I don't believe many of the sources support the thesis of the section. We need to do more than just a he said, she said. Springee (talk) 15:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
(1) There is no narrative that is being advanced or argument that has to be supported. The text reports what RS report. It's WP:OR for Wikipedia editors to build a case for or against something. Whether you find the arguments advanced by critics of the NRA credible or not is irrelevant. (2) This is the article that you're talking about[28]. I encourage everyone to read it, because this[29] is what Springee considers to be a source that has nothing to do with the NRA and gun rights for black gun owners: This[30]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • There's a narrative being advanced, but it's by some of the sources, then passed along here. You keep confusing the issue. Nobody is disputing that a RS said it. The dispute is that it doesn't belong here. Merely being newsworthy doesn't make something notable for inclusion. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:38, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Misrepresenting what I have said is not an argument. What you have there is an article talking about a single event (WP:Recent applies). Some of the people interviewed claim the NRA is silent due to racism. That isn't an article on which to anchor a three paragraph section, especially since we have other sources stating its not race but fear of alienating PD's that's at play here. Remember that your article is a RS with respect to the facts that it conveys but opinion with respect to interpreting those facts. I've already said I'm not against including some of the content but not in the way joy are trying to include it. Springee (talk) 16:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose in current from. Cut it down to one-two sentences or a short paragraph. This is a very recent attack line against the NRA, and giving it so much WP:UNDUE space would drown out the more substantial criticism this organization has faced throughout the years.Icewhiz (talk) 13:40, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose there's RECENT, UNDUE and NPOV. The entire last paragraph is from an opinion blog, not a RS. There is no opposing viewpoint, especially from Colin Noir or other NRA people. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
In the last paragraph, there are six sources (not one "opinion blog"): (1) US News & World Report, (2) NY Times, (3-5) Op-eds in the Atlantic, Wash Post and the New Republic (text is attributed to the author), (6) Op-ed in HuffPo (text is attributed to the author). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:21, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
If we are going to use opinions attributed to the authors, are those opinions from "experts"? If not they are basically the same as editorial opinions. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This started as a way to try to shoehorn in some allegations made by mostly left-leaning sources to create a division among gun owners. For the most part, it centers around the reactions to one event. Then, when that was opposed, the OP tried adding in the opinions of a law professor and tried making the op-ed piece from a small college history teacher sound like academic study. In the overall history of the org, this is a short-lived discussion. Simply stacking a lot of sources doesn't make it more notable. 500 sources talked about Megan Markle's nose this week, we're not putting that in her bio. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
I generally agree. I think there is something here but it's really around the NRA supporting law enforcement vs individual gun owners when the two are conflicting. Springee (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify which of the 16 sources are "left-leaning sources to create a division among gun owners"?
  • Oppose The NRA is Pro Gun Rights and Pro Law Enforcement organization. Every single police officer in the USA is trained to shoot by an NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor. The fact that they give the police the benefit of the doubt until all the facts are in does not make the NRA racist. It makes the NRA cautious. Unlike most of the so called news organizations that automatically attack white police officers for shooting black suspects. --RAF910 (talk) 17:25, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
So, you don't have any policy-based reason for excluding this content? You just personally disagree with the criticism? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Mixed There's clearly justification for including some of these criticisms in the article. I sympathize with other editors who think the length and tone are WP:UNDUE. It should be clarified that the question is not "is the NRA, in fact, a racist organization?", the question is "should we report the fact that the NRA has been accused of racial bias in the Castile case?" I can't see much reason why it wouldn't be mentioned. Additional comments on wording below. Nblund talk 03:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. I oppose solely because it is way too long. Reduce the size considerably, and I'd probably be in favor. — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  05:04, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support in a condensed form, such as presented below, in the "Comments" sub-section. Alternatively, reduce quotes in the version as offered in this RfC. For example, this material could go: "The widow of Brown criticized the NRA for its silence...." and her quote. Same applies to the quote by NRA here: "On July 9, an NRA spokeswoman commented..." and the rest of the para. Loesch is not a legal expert (AFAIK) and should not be quoted for legal opinions. But the gist of the material definitely belongs. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:25, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
I agree that we ought to remove the Loesch quotes. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is too long, & it's taking a POV that silence equals racism, which isn't justified. The evidence for NRA being responsible for the passage of gun control laws (not just supporting them, & that in itself would be a strange reversal), & actively intending they restrict ownership by racial minorities, needs to be stronger, too, IMO.  TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 05:31, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify how the text takes "a POV that silence equals racism"? Do you disagree that it's sufficient to attribute the latter claims to the UCLA professor? If you read the sources, you can see that he notes that it was the NRA who took credit for passing those bills (it's not his inference but the NRA's). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • HARD OPPOSE Calling the NRA a racist organization because they didn't immediately condemn a police shooting to satisfaction of anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers is pure unadulterated bias.--Limpscash (talk) 05:34, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
None of the text states in Wiki-voice that the NRA is a racist organization. The text doesn't even try to attribute accusations of racism (even though people do accuse the NRA of racism). Could you elaborate on which of the 16 sources are "anti-police, anti-gun, anti-NRA writers"? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Support - MANY well sourced and cited articles, not to mention suitable for the CRITICISM SECTION. The alleged issue of recentism is unfounded, as per above... "There is no problem of WP:RECENTISM given both the abundant sourcing (which demonstrates that the text is notable and of lasting importance) and the fact that criticism of the NRA's lack of advocacy for racial minorities can be traced to events in the 1920s/1930s and 1960s." - DN (talk) 07:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Leaf-leaning sources alleging racism does not belong in Wikipeida. Undue and NPOV. Trying to claim the NRA is racist is just wrong. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Could you clarify which of the 16 reliable sources you consider to be "left-leaning"? When you say that they are left-leaning, are you suggesting that they are not WP:RS? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • That question has been essentially answered, but then you respond by implying that calling a source left-leaning is claiming that they're not quality or a RS. A reliable source can easily have a "lean". Many people would call Fox News or the WSJ "right leaning". I would tend to agree. Similarly, Salon or Mother Jones are left-leaning. You keep trying to deflect from the larger issue with this question. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
What a bizarre rationale. Do you want us to list every single person and group that has criticized the NRA? If we do that, will that meet your concerns? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:04, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Is there any relevant one? If so, attribute to them, forget the irrelevant ones. Saturnalia0 (talk) 12:44, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
  • ’’’Oppose’’’ seems undue weight and soap boxing. Markbassett (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

The criticisms of the NRA's response to the Castile shooting alone are significant enough to warrant some mention. The notion that the NRA has a mixed record on race relations is hardly new, but it certainly got a lot more coverage after the Castile shooting. I think the paragraph on Castile could be shorter and a bit more neutrally worded - someone might reasonably dispute the claim that the NRA was "silent" on the Castile shooting, for instance. I think something along these lines might be a starting point?

In 2016, the NRA was criticized for its response to the death of Philando Castile, a black man who was shot by a police officer after Castile informed him that he was legally carrying a firearm. The NRA issued a brief statement shortly after the shooting that called the incident "troubling" and did not mention Castile by name. Critics said [double standards...], defenders argued [...not a double standard].

A second paragraph might discuss some of the broader criticisms of the NRAs record on issues of racial equality:

The NRA has been scrutinized for what critics argue is a lack of concern for black gun owners. Historian Adam Winkler criticized the NRA's past support for gun restrictions in the '60s and '70s that he argues were motivated by fears of racial unrest. ([[31]]). The sociologist Scott Melzer suggests that the NRA's use of racially charged appeals, such as its occasionally running ads for products bearing the confederate flag, casts the defense of gun rights as "primarily a (conservative) white men's cause". link.

I'm open to suggestions of course, but the criticism surrounding Castile in particular was pretty significant, and it some of it came from groups that are generally supportive of gun rights (ex)Nblund talk 03:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I fully favor your suggested language and length for the former of the two paragraphs. I fully favor adding language on racially charged rhetoric by the NRA (additional examples include having Ted Nugent on their board of directors), but I intentionally left that out in an attempt to compromise with editors who were extremely hostile to adding any race-related criticism of the NRA to the article. I do not favor trimming the three sentences attributed by Winkler though (if you're suggesting a trim for that paragraph - it's unclear). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:50, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Even allowing the thrust of the proposal is justified, & IMO it really isn't, the statement "Castile was allegedly reaching for his wallet" is troubling. It suggests the writer either believes Castile, as a gun owner, was going for his weapon & not his wallet, or believes he was, because he was black. That, I suspect, was not the intended impression. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 05:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Rather than making the section about not siding with minority gun owners I think it would make more sense to make the general criticism siding with local law enforcement rather than individual gun owners. There are actually a number of examples of this (Reason and the WP article I added to the pre-RFC discussion support this view and support it with a number of examples). Inside of that discussion I think we should mention Castile and the other recent examples and note that critics have claimed this is due to racism. The problem I see is that many sources like to cry racism because it's politically expedient. However, when we look at the evidence, ie articles that take a broader view and show that the NRA is also quiet when it's a non-miniority gun owner who suffers, it's clear this is a larger issue. I think a separate section on miniority outreach (and lack there of) would also be a good section. In that section we can discuss how many laws the NRA supported in the past were seen as targeting minorities. We can also talk about recent adds/messages that might turn off minorities. This would also be a good section to talk about actions the NRA is taking to try to break the old white man's club image. Discussing these topics as anti-black is too narrow even if we include answer's to the critic's claims. It both misses the forest for the trees and presents a very non-nuanced telling of the events. Springee (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

That seems like a different criticism from the one being offered in most of the editorials on Philando Castile - it might also be worth mentioning, but the accusation of racial bias appears to have been the more prominent interpretation.
Like I said: it really doesn't matter whether or not we think the accusations of racial bias are incorrect or unfair to the NRA, it is a significant viewpoint and so it should be mentioned as an opinion that is held by some critics of the NRA.
Snooganssnoogans, yes, I'm suggesting that the first and second paragraphs could be merged (they are somewhat redundant), and that the third paragraph could be replaced with the one I suggested on more general criticisms of the NRA's record on racial issues. Three full sentences from Adam Winkler probably aren't justifiable. You can make a case for getting the general thrust of his criticisms, but recounting multiple supporting anecdotes seems like the deck is being stacked in his favor. Nblund talk 16:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Canvassing[edit]

Is this[32] WP:CANVASSING? Seems inappropriate. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:41, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Do you even bother to read what you post? WP:Canvassing clearly states that it is appropriate.

"Appropriate notification

An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following: The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion."

Now I didn't come from any talk page rather from you reverting my edits. But the way you responded to everyone who opposed and how you're treating this defeat is really inappropriate. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 20:26, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

AlaskanNativeRU, I can't speak for Snooganssnoogans here, but: although the original notice was appropriate, the response from Limspcash may have been inappropriate because it was not neutrally worded. I don't think its likely to sway the outcome here and I doubt the user intended to skirt the rules, but notices shouldn't read like someone trying to round up a posse. Nblund talk 20:35, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Comparison to NAD & NAACP[edit]

I removed this statement from the article:

References

  1. ^ "NAD is the Oldest Civil Rights Organization in the USA!". National Association of the Deaf. 2014-01-30. Archived from the original on 2014-02-10. Retrieved 2014-05-30. 
  2. ^ "NAACP: 100 Years of History". National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. 2009. Archived from the original on 2010-08-12. Retrieved 2014-05-30. 

This looks like OR / SYNTH based on primary sources. I don't believe it's suitable for inclusion. If a secondary source made this comparison, then maybe, but not in the current form. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

There are quite a few stores comparing them ever since the NRA made that claim. Even the NAD had to write up a retort to the NRA here http://nad.s1001.sureserver.com/blogs/01/30/2014/nad-oldest-civil-rights-organization-usa Plus other stories like http://deafnetwork.com/wordpress/blog/2014/02/21/nad-is-the-oldest-civil-rights-organization-in-the-usa/ and https://www.salon.com/2017/05/07/no-the-nra-is-not-actually-the-united-states-oldest-civil-rights-organization/ That was just searching for links to the NRA and NAD. Probably more when you include the NAACP. ContentEditman (talk) 03:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)