Talk:Native Americans in the United States

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Native Americans in the United States:

*Featured Article Candidacy information - remove as corrected :)

  • several POV sections, including European
  • In "Society", 3 groups are mentioned, Iroquois, Navajo and Pueblo. Are these 3 groups representative of "Native Americans"? And the various descriptions of arts and crafts, tribal stories, and relationships with the spirit world is random and hardly seems to describe "society", then or now.
  • "Religion", ignores the past and only talks about the "most widespread religion at the present time".
  • "Gender roles" hardly says anything--"social and clan relationships were matrilinear and matriarchal" with no elaboration--and ends after all of two sentences with: "The cradle board was used by mothers to carry their baby whilst working or traveling"?
  • "Economy" is a mash-up of references to dugouts, agriculture, tobacco, firearms and alcoholic beverages. This all seems very hastily written, doesn't summarize anything
  • Other sections are problematic in similar ways, particularly with sentences that are oddly worded or say nothing: "Native Americans were stunned to learn..." or "While exhibiting widely divergent social, cultural, and artistic expressions, all Native American groups worked with materials available to them and employed social arrangements that augmented their means of subsistence and survival."
  • no inline citations in "history" and several of the sections, "Other archaeologists have disputed the dating methodology employed, and have also suggested that these "artifacts" are naturally-formed, rather than of human manufacture. Other recent claims for pre-Clovis artifacts have similarly been made in some South American sites. The notion of pre-Clovis habitation continues to be a subject of scholarly debate, and the issue has not yet been satisfactorily resolved." - evidence of weasel words. I added an inline citation for that.
  • lots of weasel words—for example, "is believed to have reached the New World", "They are believed to have reached Alaska", and "molecular genetics studies have suggested". The first one I can't fix (I had nothing to do with writing the article), the second and third examples I found a reference for. The fourth I added "mitochondrial DNA", which I learned in biology but it would be best if somebody could verify this.
Former featured article candidate Native Americans in the United States is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
February 23, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted

Why isn't the title just "Native American"[edit]

After all, Native American redirects to this page.--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

While that redirect is odd it is the way it should be. This article is only about Native Americans in the US, not those elsewhere - but "Native American" is mostly used to describe US Natives so that is why the redirect goes here and not to Indigenous Peoples of the Americas. It is a problem with now perfect solution.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
In American English "Native American" refers not only to Indians in the USA but to all Indigenous Peoples of the Americas. See Native American naming controversy. Rmhermen (talk) 04:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
In fact American English "Native American" with overwhelming frequency refers to North American Native Americans - by far enough that that is the primary topic of that usage. It is quite rare to find Native American applied to South American indigenous groups.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 04:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
@Maunus: Have you found any statistics or search results to support this assertion? Jarble (talk) 22:32, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I dont have quantitative evidence no. I happen to work with indigenous peoples of Latin America professionally and know that the literature hardly ever refer to them as "Native Americans". A quick google books search with the term "Native American" confirms this. And the Native American Encyclopedia[1] for example does not cover any cultures south of the US. Nor does Native American Architecture[2]. Or the Handbook of Native American Literature[3]. This is the typical pattern, works that include Latin American indigenous groups under the label are in the minority.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
But we can easily find the opposites as well - genetic studies of the skeleton of the "Native American girl" found in a Yucatan cave [4][5], Prevalence of problem drinking in a Venezuelan Native American population", the "Encyclopedia of American Indian Contributions to the World" which covers South American as well as North American, the National Museum of the American Indian whose collections cover "Native peoples of the Western Hemisphere (excluding Hawai’i)" but really only means the Americas. If usage was consistent we wouldn't have these repeated discussions. Rmhermen (talk) 13:49, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but I am convinced that the former pattern is predominant, and that users typing in "native american" as a search term are most likely to be interested in this article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Without much regard for context, I'm incline to say that it should simply be Native American because WP:CONCISE. What ends up happening is that an editor uses the phrase "native american" in an article, referring to inidigeonous people of North America/US. Then, possibly being aware of MOS:NOPIPE, they will pipe the link to this page. This is makes the wikitext unecessarily complicated.Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 19:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Being aware of NOPIPE, they will... pipe it? That makes no sense. WP:NOPIPE says that if you're linking to Native American and that redirects here, you have no need to pipe that link explicitly. In case you meant "unaware", though, well, the guideline is there, and as with all guidelines, if some editors are unaware of it, other editors will correct their mistake and inform them of it, as is always the process with Wikipedia.
At the same time, WP:CONCISE definitely does not apply if there is considerable use in English (any English variety, by the way, since this is not the American English Wikipedia) of "Native Americans" to mean Native Americans somewhere that is not the United States. Even in this section above, Maunus seems to argue that the term is typically applied to North Americans natives, but not necessarily to just the ones in the US. So, really, no, Native Americans doesn't mean Native Americans in the US. LjL (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

No one knows what to call them, because there was never a name for the continents or their race. They are natives, or indigenous, but never considered themselves Americans in the past. Plus America has its own pseudo or unknown origins, dating back to Columbus, which is as fact as Peter Pan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billy.kidd332211 (talkcontribs) 17:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Native American race[edit]

There seems to be a few definitions of Native American. While the US considers it as either being registered in a tribe regardless of racial composition or actually indigenous but only in the bounds of the US mainland, Alaska, and Hawaii while calling all other Native Americans "American Indians"(same thing), yet Native Americans are a race descended from proto-Mongoloids, ALL of them (Not just ones indigenous to all of the US).

I believe this wiki should include Native Americans from all over the Americas as its Native American race definition and not stick to the US shortsighted definition. It literally makes no sense that a Native American from South America would be wrong to identify as "Native American". What other race are they? Are they not native to the Americas? American Indian and Native American aren't separate races and aren't listed as such, even in the US. This is like pretending Native Americans in what is known as Latin America don't exist. All people of the Native American race should be included on this wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs) 05:32, 19 June 2015

ASSIMILATION: "European impact was immediate, widespread, and profound—more than any other race that had contact with Native Americans during the early years of colonization and nationhood. " - What other "races" did they have contact with? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:38, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Blacks, mostly (slave and free); a scattering of Asians. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Not to mention the Irish, italian, Jewish and Slavic races. Now, joking aside, I think we should just rephrase in a way that does not rely on the pseudoscientific belief in biologically distinct races.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:29, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Proposed edit to "Current legal status" section.[edit]

I want to make an edit to the “Current legal status section.” I want to make an edit to the first sentence of this paragraph as I feel like it uses an opinion, and does not back it up with a source. The sentence details the feelings/opinions of Native Americans on the United States government, but does not give a credible source to back up this opinion. I plan to add this source to the first sentence,( to show that the U.S. State and Federal governments have tried to regulate goings on in the Reservations. What do you guys think? Let me know. Thespartan41 (talk) 04:54, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Native Americans in the United States. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:16, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

New book on stereotypes in illustration[edit]

Indians Illustrated: The Image of Native Americans in the Pictorial Press by John M. Coward, 2016, University of Illinois Press Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 21:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 23 November 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No concensus - there is no concensus for the proposed move but there is concensus to move Native Americans (disambiguation) to Native Americans. (non-admin closure) Fuortu (talk) 00:21, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Native Americans in the United StatesNative Americans – Per WP:COMMONNAME, and no ambiguity exists. SSTflyer 12:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm not seeing that as a helpful search result as it is picking up phrases rather than topic titles, so we have results for "Native Americans in Europe" in England, in the wilderness, and in space. I'm not seeing book titles of "Native Americans in the United States", but plenty about "Native Americans". SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:55, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Good points. And see Native American name controversy. I'll reconsider my initial comment as this RM continues. I was going by Wikipedia article names and links. Randy Kryn 14:34, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Articles exist for Native Americans in Mexico and Native Americans in Canada. Native Americans in the United States is the WP:PTOPIC for "Native Americans". And while some of these people object to the "Native Americans" name, there is no denying that it is the WP:COMMONNAME in English language usage. SSTflyer 15:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Those linked articles are named 'Indigenouse peoples of Mexico' and 'First Nations'. 'First Nations' and 'The People' are also honorably used as self-identifiers. Randy Kryn 15:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Native Americans in Mexico Native Americans in Canada In ictu oculi (talk)
  • Support. The few non-redirect titles that begin with "Native Americans in" unambiguously refer specifically to indigenous peoples of the United States. [6] Gordon P. Hemsley 07:25, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. This is the main article on Native Americans so we need the most common and precise title without ambiguity. As it stands someone arriving at this article with the current title may be wondering where the main article is. Once we have the main article sorted, we can have regional articles. The title was Native Americans until moved in 2014 by User:Red Slash. I'll notify them of this discussion, they should be able to explain why the title was changed. SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:55, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
    • Note: The article was moved to this title on September 22, 2005, not in 2014. It was in 2005 that the subject matter for U.S. Native Americans were moved here and others moved into the Indigenous peoples of the Americas article. The discussion is spread across Archives 2, 3 and 4. Rmhermen (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Support – in this context, "Americans" refers to "America", short for "United States of America". "Native Americans" does not typically refer to the indigenous peoples of the Americas (North and South American continents). But the current title implies that there are indigenous peoples outside the U.S. that are called "Native Americans". Granting the move request will remove the implication, and clarify the context. The Transhumanist 03:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Support, clearly WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. Either that or Native Americans should be re-targeted to a page like Indigenous peoples of North America, since there is a good amount of overlap between Native Americans and First Nations people of Canada, to the extent that an article can't be properly mentioning both.--Prisencolin (talk) 05:13, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose: As anyone who does any amount of anthropological, indigenous art, and related reading knows, "Native American" is frequently used more broadly. The fact that Canadians prefer "First Nations", and many (especially more recent works) use more involved phrases like "indigenous populations of the Americas", or more specific ones ("Native South Americans", etc.), doesn't erase the fact of a more generalized usage o "Native Americans".  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  10:48, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Opposeper McCandlish - most Native American people do not live in the US.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:39, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
  • OpposeNative American could refer to people native of North America, including Canada, Mexico and the U.S. – there is an article on Native Americans in Mexico and Native Americans in Canada. CookieMonster755 𝚨-𝛀 23:19, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose This article is about Native Americans in the United States. It does not cover Native Americans in other parts of America (they have their own articles). So the proposed title is just a wrong description of this article. Their could be an article on Native Americans generally, with that title, but this is not it. --MrStoofer (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
In fact there is an article about Native Americans and it resides at Indigenous peoples of the Americas. --MrStoofer (talk) 11:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. This is a perpetual problem on Wikipedia. "Native Americans" has redirected here for years, meaning that anyone who types in or clicks on that phrase ends up at the article on Native Americans in the United States. Same with other terms like American Indian. As such, the argument that there may be confusion with other "Native Americans" is mooted. More to the point, although "Native American" can mean indigenous peoples in other countries, it's simply a matter of fact that most uses of "Native Americans" are referring to peoples in the present-day U.S., and in some cases it may be seen as offensive to call non-U.S. natives "Native Americans". Given that by long-standing precedent, Wikipedia accepts this article as the primary redirect, there's really no good reason to use the longer, clumsier, and much less used formulation "Native Americans in the United States".
The only other real option would be to recreate the dab page at Native Americans and proceed to fix the incoming links. We simply should not have the term used in the real world, Native Americans, redirecting to an article with long, artificial name.--Cúchullain t/c 17:28, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I've moved the dab page to Native Americans (disambiguation) and cleaned it up. If this article isn't moved, the dab page should be moved to the base name and incoming links sorted.--Cúchullain t/c 18:25, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Changing my !vote to oppose moving Native Americans in the United States and move Native Americans (disambiguation) over the base name Native Americans. It's become readily apparent that "Native Americans" is too ambiguous to point only to this article (or any, IMO).--Cúchullain t/c 14:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Andrewa and others above. It is clear that indiginous peoples in Canada, Mexico are referred to as Native Americans too. The Native Americans redirect should most likely be retargeted to Indigenous peoples of North America, as the most general article on this topic. Failing that, a move of the dab page as Cuchullain suggests.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. Native American specifically refers to indigenous inhabitants of the United States. It is generally not used to refer to the indigenous inhabitants of Latin American countries, which use other terms. As noted above, the "American" in the title refers to the nationality of the United States, not the Americas in general, in a similar way, for example, to African American. Simon Burchell (talk) 09:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
I suggest that "Native American" is also used in Canada: some RS: 1) "the common term for the indigenous peoples is “American Indian”; in Canada it is 'Native American' or Native Canadian,'" [Paper 2007; 2) "In Canada, the first sweat lodge was constructed for use by Native American prisoners" (French 2003); 3) "Mooney's estimate included 54,200 Native Americans in eastern Canada" [Thornton 1988] 4) Art and Architecture in Canada (1991) "the sponsoring group, the International Native American Council of Arts (INCA)"; 5) "The governor of Canada, Sir Frederick Haldimand, believed that Native American help would be necessary" [2011]; 6) " Native American Indians account for a very small proportion of the population in Canada" [2010]. 7) "In this cover story for the Canadian newsmagazine Maclean's, Nancy Wood looks at the issue of Native American sovereignty in Canada" [1996] etc etc Rjensen (talk) 10:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose Nothing except the >>modern<< correlation of American as a United States citizen explains this supposed connection. But in this sense, were the Apaches Native Americans during the XIX century, while the United States frontier was still a few hundred miles east? They were, but not because they lived inside the United States. This is a case of presentism with a pinch of Anglo-Saxon self-sufficiency. Bertdrunk (talk) 14:10, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Native Americans" re-direct[edit]

Shouldn't Native Americans redirect to Indigenous peoples of the Americas rather than to Native Americans in the United States? Isn't the current situation like having Europeans redirect to French people instead of the correct article, which is Ethnic groups in Europe? --MrStoofer (talk) 11:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

MrStoofer: To answer you question, no, because "Europeans" is never used to refer to the French specifically, while in many contexts "Native Americans" refers specifically to indigenous peoples from the U.S. However, Native Americans should *not* be pointing to Native Americans in the United States: either this article is the primary topic of the term, and should be title simply Native Americans, or Native Americans should be a dab page. I don't think it would be productive at this stage to redirect Native Americans to Indigenous peoples of the United States. Doing that caused the confusion and moves in the past that have left us in the current situation.--Cúchullain t/c 14:35, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
What I had in mind was that at Native Americans there would be a DAB page which said something like this:
Native Americans refers to the indigenous peoples of the Americas, in particular Native Americans in the United States.
It may also refer to:
--MrStoofer (talk) 14:50, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
There's now a dab page at Native Americans (disambiguation). That seems to me the most logical thing to put at the base name.--Cúchullain t/c 18:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Did you know? (re: "Native Americans")[edit]

Hope I'm not being insensitive here, but I find this a little confusing at a glance. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:09, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, sorry if my proposal above wasn't clear. I agree that the list of other indigenous peoples of the Americas should use the agreed article titles such as First Nations, Aboriginal peoples in Canada and so on.--MrStoofer (talk) 10:50, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
This is starting to lead us into what caused most of the confusion to begin with. Disambiguation pages aren't for listing all related topics. They're for listing topics, related or not, that are known by a particular term. The disambiguation page needs to list the topics that are known as "Native Americans" or "Native American", not (necessarily) all articles on indigenous peoples in the Americas. "Native Americans" may be used for First Nations people in Canada, but it isn't used, for instance, for the Inuit, though both Inuit and First Nations are aboriginal peoples of Canada. We need to keep it ordered or it's likely someone will move the articles around again and we'll soon have a setup as confused as it was before.--Cúchullain t/c 16:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Long Island Algonquin Mohegans seem to be unrepresented on the Native Americans page and elsewhere[edit]

Long Island, NY does not seem to have its Native Americans represented in Wikipedia under the pages of "Native Americans in the United States" or Indigenous peoples of the Americas.

I am not a historian so am hesitant to add this information on my own. May I request someone assist in adding the Algonquin people often referred to as Mohegans (alt spelling Mohican.)

THank you for your kind attention to this request. (Jmont1 (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC))

Perhaps you are looking for the Shinnecock Indian Nation. It looks like Mohican was generically used for all large number of Indian groups in the area but it appears the actual Mohicans and Mohegans never lived on Long Island. This page is a high level article about all Natives in the U.S. and doesn't mention all of the 550+ groups. Rmhermen (talk) 02:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Problem with aources[edit]

We have the line "Three major migrations occurred" sourced to 2 refs...Both mention that the second and third waves were only in the i am not sure how helpfull it is to mislead our readers on the genetic diversity in the USA below the 60 parallel. We need to reword this or find sources that support the statement. --Moxy (talk) 19:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 December 2016[edit]

There is a small error where words are repeated that i would like to fix. DisgustingFish (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER 09:50, 15 December 2016 (UTC).
Note: or you can wait until you are an extended confirmed user and edit the page yourself. regards, DRAGON BOOSTER 09:56, 15 December 2016 (UTC).
In the second paragraph, second line, known as is written twice, is this an error or not? If so it should be fixed. Sincerely, DisgustingFish (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2016 (UTC)