Talk:Neofelis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The term "clouded leopard"[edit]

Neofelis#Distribution_of_species uses the term "clouded leopard" to refer to the entire genus, to both species at once. Do experts ever do this? Chrisrus (talk) 05:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Of course. For example, "Based on this reclassification of clouded leopards not only species, but also the populations on Borneo and Sumatra should be managed separately and a higher priority should be placed to protect the different populations from extinction." in doi:10.1186/1742-9994-4-15. Ucucha (talk) 12:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I see. So the reason this article is an exception to the WP:COMMONNAME guideline seems to be the fact that Clouded leopard is already occupied? Also, by the way, don't you think the "distribution of species" section is a bit far down in the article for it to mention the term "clouded leopard" for the first time? Especially given the fact that this is an article about clouded leopards, you'd think the article would use the term in the lead. Also, what in Latin would you call a Neofelis species, a neofelid, as with "Canis/Canid"? Chrisrus (talk) 13:22, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
"A species of Neofelis, I would think. "Canid" refers to the family Canidae, not the genus Canis.
The situation here is messy because "clouded leopard" is a plausible name both for the genus and for the species Neofelis nebulosa. The situation with the chimpanzees is analogous; there, "chimpanzee" leads to the genus and the species is called common chimpanzee. Unfortunately, the sources so far seem to simply use "clouded leopard" for N. nebulosa.
This article certainly needs some work; there's no need for the first paragraph of the lead to discuss ancient taxonomy in such detail, and as you say it should mention the term "clouded leopard" a bit earlier. Ucucha (talk) 13:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on about the redirect neofelid you might want to comment on. About this article, how about a hatnote to the other clouded leopard articles? Chrisrus (talk) 13:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The term Neofelis is indeed a term used in taxonomy, though I don't consider it ancient. And think that the lead section is the right place to explain, when and by whom it has been used for the first time, and what it means. The internal links provided in the lead section direct to the respective articles about the clouded leopards of mainland Asia and Sundaland. So why a hatnote if these links already exist and are correct? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 14:52, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not talking just about the term "Neofelis", but the species that were originally included in the genus in the early 19th century are now indeed ancient taxonomy that's only of historical interest. If that fact should be discussed at all, it should be in a section on taxonomy, just like in featured articles like ring-tailed lemur. Ucucha (talk) 15:47, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

To address your last question: because some disambiguation seems to be in order, and the simplest way might be some kind of a hatnote. This article seems to be clouded leopard (genus) and the other clouded leopard (species). Chrisrus (talk) 15:12, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no genus called clouded leopard ! The genus is called Neofelis ! And comprises 2 species ! Is it the use of Latin that makes you so confused ? Or what else is unclear for you ? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 15:45, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The common name "clouded leopard" is used for the genus Neofelis as well as the species Neofelis nebulosa. Ucucha (talk) 15:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
This is not completely correct, Ucucha. At least not in regards to scientific literature, as it would cause misunderstanding, whether genus or species is meant. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
@BhagyaMani, Neofelis#Distribution_of_species uses the term "clouded leopards" to refer to the entire genus, to both species at once. Chrisrus (talk) 16:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
When using the words "clouded leopards" before the list, I do not refer to the entire genus, but to species. Read the list again: the felids mentioned there were described BEFORE the term Neofelis came into use. So they were not described as Neofelis species, but subordinated under the genus Felis at the time of description. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
The sentence could synonymously read "Between 1821 and 1862, several clouded leopard species have been described from Southeast Asia..." or "Between 1821 and 1862, several Neofelis species have been described from Southeast Asia..." Anything Neofelis is a clouded leopard and vice versa, right? It's like Crows refers any and all species in that genus, is it not? Chrisrus (talk) 16:59, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, with your last edit, you have eliminated the only usage of the term "clouded leopard" from the text. If it weren't for the picture captions, a reader wouldn't know that we are talking about clouded leopards at all. Please agree in the abstract that the fact that they are called "clouded leopards" is one of the most important things we should tell the reader about the referent of this article. Chrisrus (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I started out to edit it just a little but I ended up re-arranging and so on quite a bit. Thank you Bhagya for basically all the content, which along with most of the words I have tried to preserve. Chrisrus (talk) 04:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Section Break[edit]

Ok. It looks like we have no better choice in this case than to ignore WP:COMMONNAME because the logical move to "Clouded leopard" is impossible as that term is occupied by clouded leopard. However, I could be wrong about that. There might be a better choice. I'd love to hear your thoughts.Chrisrus (talk) 04:58, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Animals of Thailand[edit]

The Sunda clouded leopard does NOT live in Thailand, but the clouded leopard does. It's confusing and unhelpful from a encyclopedia standpoint to add Neofelis to the category Mammals of Thailand. Strictly speaking, Neofelis is NOT an animal of Thailand, since it's only a genus and not a single species.

I suggest that it's best to put only clouded leopard in that category.

Kortoso (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2017 (UTC)