Talk:Netherlands

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WikiProjects and notice board[edit]

See also Wikipedia:Netherlands for information on Wikipedia activities related to the Netherlands.

Holland[edit]

Every now and then, something like "also called Holland" is added to the first sentence of this article, which is often changed in wording time after time and eventually removed before popping up again. I think it's better to get to a consensus on if we want to have it and if yes, in which words.

Personally I don't really mind what it will be, but there is something to say for both. Officially, the country's name is not Holland. Strictly speaking, Holland is only a region in the Netherlands. Dutchmen from outside Holland also don't like this name for the country. However, fact is that in the English-speaking world (and also outside) the country is often called and known as Holland anyway and even the Dutch government is promoting it with that name. I think this usage should perhaps also be acknowledged in an encyclopedia like this.

So, do we want to keep it in and in what wording, or do we want to omit it? If it's kept, then we should have a reliable source for it or otherwise still remove it. Thayts ••• 21:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The NL is often, not rarely, called Holland, even by the Dutch themselves. The answer then is simple - it should be noted somewhere in this article, logically at the start. The problem is not so much with the editors who want to insert the word Holland but with those pedantically correct editors who do not. A good comparison is with the UK-England debate: even though those within the UK who refer to the UK as England, has dwindled to a trickle over time, many outside the UK still regularly persist with this habit, the Dutch included. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 23:45, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
Yes, so I'd like to get to a consensus so that we can refer to this discussion later. Thayts ••• 07:48, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
"Holland" is predominantly used as a synonym of the "Netherlands" in Dutch. In English it is virtually always or plainly always a synonym of the "Netherlands" and it often is the first choice name. This is the English-language Wikipedia so I support putting it in the first phrase of the article and keeping it there. I suggest "The Netherlands, informally Holland, is a country in Western Europe." gidonb (talk) 20:13, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
User:Thayts and User:Roger 8 Roger, do you agree with this proposal? Anyone else? gidonb (talk) 16:53, 1 December 2019 (UTC)


Agree Thayts ••• 17:03, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Agree Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

I've added a reference to the phrase in the lead. Thayts ••• 21:13, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you! gidonb (talk) 19:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Agree FWIW, I agree with the rationale. The government may not use it anymore for tourism purposes, and the term is luckily obsolete in sports. Technically the term is incorrect and only refers to part o the country. However, this term is still in widespread (though informal) use, and as long as that the case, we should mention it... L.tak (talk) 18:09, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Edit: lack of XP working with Wikipedia, sorry. It is simply wrong; it is the Netherlands, not Holland. Regardless of what some (or even many) of us might be shouting during football matches. Please remove / update it to make this more clear, thanks! Anecdotal reference to this matter somewhere later on in the article would be fine... I guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8109:a0c0:11e4:7c7f:7d9f:9124:eba7 (talk) 23:20, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
To explain the confusion a bit: Holland vs the Netherlands. The Banner talk 09:13, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
It may formally be wrong, but if it is commonly used for this purpose by so many English speakers then it does have that meaning to those speakers. As an encyclopedia, I believe this should be acknowledged on Wikipedia, if only to make it clear to the reader this is a country that is also known by that name. The controversy of its use is explained further down the article. Thayts ••• 16:33, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
no Disagree The Netherlands has been historically referred to as "Holland" for the same reasons the United Kingdom was referred to as "England" or the Soviet Union as "Russia", simply due to the fact that those regions were the most influential politically and economically in their respective countries. Many people mistake the United Kingdom to be the same thing as England. Should it also be mentioned on the United Kingdom article that it is informally referred to as "England" in that case?
Dutch people living outside of North Holland and South Holland, or what people living in Holland refer to as the "provincial people" feel insulted when they are referred to as "Hollanders". Especially when considering Friesland has a separate dialect and history and Utrecht has a history predating Holland within the development of the Netherlands. --HyettsTheGamer2 (talk) 04:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Caribbean Netherlands[edit]

The lede of this article is incorrect in its wording. It talks of the Netherlands as being only the European portion, and that it along with the Caribbean Netherlands make up a constituent country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands. But the islands in the Caribbean Netherlands are an integral part of the Netherlands. There isn't a separation of the two parts (except by an ocean). I would rather someone who spends more time on this article be the one to make this change, but I will do it if I don't see anyone else make it in a reasonable amount of time. Lexicon (talk) 06:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

@Lexicon: do my edits address your concerns? Laurel Lodged (talk) 07:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
@Laurel Lodged: Yep! Lexicon (talk) 16:11, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Capitalization of "the"[edit]

The article uses "the" in lower case when referring to the country, but I'm not sure if it is a required definite article, or whether it is part of the name, in which case it would have to be capitalized. The latter is certainly the case with "The Hague", for which the word The must always be capitalized. I'm less sure in the case of The Netherlands, however. When Ukraine was "the Ukraine", it was not capitalized. Mathglot (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

See Talk:Netherlands/Archive2_(Netherlands_v._the_Netherlands) The article is in British English so the definite article is required if you use the name in a sentence. But because in other language variants like US English the definite article is not required, according to the rules of Wikipedia the definite article is not a part of the name. The definite article shouldn't be capitalized. --Egel Reaction? 21:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Common Era or Anno Domini?[edit]

The article had a mix of Anno Domini and Common Era styles, so I made it consistent with Common Era. Ætoms subsequently reverted that edit, which to me seems lika a violation the style-rules. Or had a consensus already been reached about this? DirkvdM (talk) 07:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey! When I reverted your edit, I was referring to the MOS:ERA guideline which states that "an article's established era style should not be changed without reasons specific to its content", but I wasn't aware that there were inconsistencies within the article, so thank you for pointing that out!
I took a closer look and found that the BC/AD notation is used >30 times throughout the article, while the BCE/CE notation is used only twice. Therefore, I think it would be best to stick with the BC/AD notation. ― Ætoms [talk] 17:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@DirkvdM: I changed the two BCEs to BC, so now the BC/AD notation is used consistently within the article. ― Ætoms [talk] 15:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)