Talk:Neve Sha'anan

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Nave, not Neve[edit]

It is awful that no less than 4 pages in the WikiProject Israel have a mistaken title: this one here, and the three ones linking out from it, all referring to neighbourhoods located in the three big cities.

The name of the neighbourhood – as correctly pronounced in Hebrew – is NOT "Neve Sha'anan" but "Nave Sha'anan". The actual pronunciation is Na-Véh Sha-a-Nan, in case any of you here is not sure I'm 100% right plz do refer that subject to others on the he:wiki (in which I'm an editor self).

The garbled fashion of saying "Neve Sha'anan" derives simply from the reason that all place-names in Israel having the word Navé (Flowery word for Oases/Abode) in them obey to the inflection into construct state, because they're composed of two nouns. That is – When you want to call a place "Abode of Piece" you'll say Neve Shalom; when you wanna say "Abode of Jacob" it'll be Neve Yaakov; same with Neve Ilan, Neve Yam and all others - for the reason that when the noun Nave comes before another noun, it will transform to Neve, *BUT* when it comes befoer an adjective, it will stay unchanghed Nave, for it is *no* construct state - THIS IS VERY BASIC. The word Sha'anan means Tranquil, hence "Neve Sha'anan" is an embarracing error, which shouldnot be perpetuated in this site of ours.

Please read any source you desire - For those of you capable in reading Hebrew I sincerely recommend opening the Book of Isaiah and see how the idiom נָוֶה שַׁאֲנָן appears.

I hereby voice my request to rename all article titles across Wikipedia from Neve Sha'anan to Nave Sha'anan. I'm oversupported by both official Haifa Municipality publications and road signs (Where it's sometimes "Nawe" instead of Nave) and international maps such as this one.

Thanks! (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC).

Haaretz, BBC, Jerusalem Post and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs all use "Neve". Can you explain? Tigerboy1966 (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Hasn't the explanation displayed in details above been of an Explanation ?
There again, in (maybe) simpler words: Individuals in Israel using the fashion "Neve Sha'anan" are using a vulgar lingual garble, originating in the ad-populum fact that apart from this one neighbourhood's name, all other <<Nave>>s' performances in places' names are given in their construct state; Nave Sha'anan is NOT a construct situation. Since 99% of the Nave-names appear as Neve, one may tend to apply it erroneously on other flowery combinations ignoring the literal meaning. (talk) 16:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I wasn't asking for an explanation of the grammar. I was asking why you think the sources I mentioned prefer "Neve".Tigerboy1966 (talk) 17:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Just checked google and Neve Sha'anan is by far the more popular form in general hits, news, and books. If it's the most commonly used English name then that's what the article title should be on English language wikipedia.Tigerboy1966 (talk) 16:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Looking at the webpages of the city councils, Haifa prefers "Nave" by 70 to 7, Jerusalem only uses "Neve" and Tel Aviv prefers "Neve" by 2 to 1. National government websites (* list 128 uses of "Neve" and just one for "Nave" (which is actually the Tel Aviv council site). What bugs me, however, is that whichever one is used, it should have an "h" on the end! Number 57 16:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
This one does not bug me at all. it can be Navé, Nave or Naveh (just not Nawe, ewww, that's so bad) and I'm evenly apathetic to this ending spelling as it doesnot affect the pronunciation. The matter we have here is the fundamental matter of [a]-sound or [e]-sound at the first syllable. our readers should be endowed with an actual lingual phase rather than follow the vulgar mistaking crowd. You may though wanna see that Yavne, Ma'ale, Neve Shalom and virtually most modern-era places with é-sound at the end don't use h, while on the other hand in a funny way when it comes to Nave you soon get Dan Naveh, Yair Naveh, Merom Naveh in Ramat Gan etc. (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree that normally the Niqqud Kamatz normally is transliterated as a (rarely short o כָּל), but in this case, I think that the newspapers and government sites should be the best sources. The original example seems to be from Haifa for the neighborhood there, are there any examples for either the neighborhoods in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv? It is certainly acceptable for the article for the location Haifa to have an 'a' if that is local usage, but the others to have 'e', even if the three are spelled identically in Hebrew.Naraht (talk) 18:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
There again see Nave Sha'anan at an official English speaking web map as well as consult with Heb speakers. The all three Nave Sha'anans are the same meaning and identically pronounced, I would find it irritating to differentiate between them,, Would it help if I take pictures of our local road signs in HFA? (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
The road signs are effectively meaningless as far as this goes as we have numerous towns and villages located at a spelling which is different to the road sign ones (e.g. any non-Arab location with a "q" on the road signs has a "k" on Wikipedia). Number 57 20:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Can you please give an example? (Note, figuring out how to do the article name for the recently deposed leader of Libya makes this look like a walk in the park)Naraht (talk) 20:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, anything starting with "Kiryat" (e.g. Kiryat Gat) appears on Israeli roadsigns as "Qiryat" because the people responsible always transliterate ק as q rather than k). However, this is not necessarily a transliteration case because the vowel part of the name being discussed is not actually written - it is a pronunciation issue. I am not sure which way to go on this. For the Haifa suburb there is a clear case of using Nave (although I would propose Naveh this rather than Nave, as many people will end up thinking Nave is pronounced to rhyme with "Dave". This follows the rules of Wikipedia:HEBREW#He at the ends of words and is a spelling that is used by official sources e.g. the MFA so is not OR), but I'm not sure about Jerusalem and Tel Aviv (94.** makes a good point about inconsistency). Number 57 22:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
That reference is for the neighborhood in Tel Aviv, not Haifa.Naraht (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
My point was that "Naveh" in general is an acceptable spelling. Number 57 23:48, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I really don't know how "Nave" would more accurately indicate the Hebrew pronunciation to English speakers, who would naturally pronounce it as a monosyllable (like the nave of a cathedral). The usual transcription into English is "Neve" or "Neveh" -- "All pages with prefix" search turns up at least the following: Neve Ativ / Neve Avivim / Neve Barbur / Neve Dan / Neve Daniel / Neve Daniyel / Neve David / Neve Dekalim / Neve Efraim / Neve Efrayim / Neve Eitan / Neve Erez / Neve Granot / Neve Hadassah / Neve Harif / Neve Ilan / Neve McIntosh / Neve Michael / Neve Mivtach / Neve Mivtah / Neve Monosson / Neve Nunatak / Neve Ofer / Neve Sha'anan / Neve Sha'anan, (Jerusalem) / Neve Sha'anan, Haifa / Neve Sha'anan, Jerusalem / Neve Sha'anan, Tel Aviv / Neve Sha'anan (Haifa) / Neve Sha'anan (Jerusalem) / Neve Sha'anan (Tel Aviv) / Neve Sha'anan (disambiguation) / Neve Shaanan / Neve Shaanan Street / Neve Shalom / / Neve Shalom (disambiguation) / Neve Shalom – Wahat as-Salam / Neve Shalom – Wa-?at as-Sala-m / Neve Sharet / Neve Sharett / Neve She'anan / Neve Sheanan / Neve Tzahal / Neve Tzedek / Neve Tzedek Tower / Neve Tzuf / Neve Ur / Neve Ya'akov / Neve Ya'aqov / Neve Yaakov / Neve Yam / Neve Yamin / Neve Yarak / Neve Yaraq / Neve Yerek / Neve Yereq / Neve Yerushalayim / Neve Zedek / Neve Ziv / Neve Zohar / Neve yakov / Neveh Dekalim / Neveh Erez / Neveh Monossohn / Neveh Shalom (disambiguation) / Neveh Sharet / Neveh Tzedek / Neveh Tzuf / Neveh Yaakov / Neveh Zedek. By contrast, "Nave" prefix search turns up nothing... AnonMoos (talk) 05:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

See above for an explanation on why this is a different case when pronunciation is concerned. Number 57 12:23, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment—coming a little late into the conversation, but it seems like this needs input from a Hebrew speaker. According to Hebrew grammar rules (I can't remember the specific name of the rule), in many words vowels become shorter when the word increases from 2 to 3 syllables, and this includes word combinations (sorry for the unprofessional language, I learned this more than 8 years ago). For example, the word namel (port) becomes nemal in a combination such as Nemal Heifa (Haifa Port). In the same way, the word nave(h) becomes neve(h) in combinations such as Neve Sha'anan. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Just realized that anonymous already addressed this point, by pointing out that sha'anan is an adjective, therefore you say nave(h) sha'anan in the same way you'd say nave(h) yarok or nave(h) yafe(h). While grammatically the idea is correct, I am not sure that this was meant in this case. We need to check the etymology of this neighborhood's name specifically. We also need to consider WP:COMMONNAME and whether that makes a difference or not. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)