Talk:Nights into Dreams

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Featured article Nights into Dreams is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Further appearances[edit]

Is the Further appearances section worth mentioning this article? It seems like mostly WP:GAMECRUFT to me and doesn't offer any encyclopaedic value. Would anyone object if I removed it? JAGUAR  15:18, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jaguar:All that junk, and you pick the cited and notable area to delete? lol, wow. No, the "Characters" section should be reduced to one small paragraph in "Story". Gameplay should be cut by 1/3 or so WP:GAMEGUIDE. Improper use of pull quotes; use {{quotation}} instead. "Further appearances" should be called "Legacy", and I don't see anything wrong with it and everything right with it. Thanks. — Smuckola(talk) 16:02, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
At least three quarters of the further appearances section is gamecruft. "In this stage, Sonic must face off against the aforementioned Deadly Six in boss fights, each of the fights being from the game, albeit reskinned with boss characters from Nights Into Dreams", "A minigame version of Nights into Dreams... is playable utilising the Nintendo GameCube-to-Game Boy Advance connectivity with Phantasy Star Online Episode I & II". How is that relevant to the article and how would it make sense to a reader? That's not a legacy. I don't understand what you meant by "All that junk, and you pick the cited and notable area to delete? lol, wow". I haven't removed anything yet, I just wanted some advice on if it would be worth removing the cruft from the section I'm talking about, as I can't find any sources for half of it. JAGUAR  17:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
@Jaguar:Okay those can be consolidated into a summary sentence or a few sentences if you keep the citations (if there are any). For example, "Nights characters appear in several other developers' games, such as ..." and so on, for all the types of appearances it makes, with citations. But yeah they are the definition of a legacy. Legacy is "what came after this, because of this". It's demonstrative of the subject's notability, to indicate that other artists were moved by it. That's literally what a legacy is. I haven't the foggiest idea why you'd ask how they're relevant to the article or make sense to the reader, because that's just by definition what it is. That question doesn't make any sense, sorry. And see everything else I said. Finally, please immediately stop any and all editing that you're doing right now, create your own sandbox document instead (and propose that here first as a draft, if it's drastic or questionable etc), and utilize the 'preview' button. Thanks. — Smuckola(talk) 18:02, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, I'll see what I can do about writing a legacy section once I gather the sources. Just curious, why do you want me to stop editing the article? I've already got a sandbox with some content from this article and I'll utilize it when the time comes. JAGUAR  18:09, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

What the hell are you doing? JAGUAR  18:12, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

For God's sake, Smuckola, you're not the dictator of Wikipedia!TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:28, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Nights into Dreams.../GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AdrianGamer (talk · contribs) 09:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)


Lead[edit]

  • Wouldn't Nights Into Dreams the game's common name, instead of Nights Into Dreams...?
  • Nights into Dreams... (with the ellipses) is the official and common name, at least it's mentioned in most of the sources and used throughout this article. I haven't seen it used in any other way. JAGUAR  17:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Port developer should not be included in the infobox
  • Removed. JAGUAR  17:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The game is presented in 3D and imposes - Wikilink 3D
  • An exclusive analogue controller, known as the Saturn 3D controller, was designed alongside the game and was included with some retail copies sold. - Does "exclusive" means that Nights Into Dreams is the only game players can play with the controller?
  • The analogue controller works with all Saturn software. I've rephrased to clarify this. JAGUAR  17:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • graphics, unique gameplay, soundtrack, and vibrant atmosphere. - remove "unique", "vibrant" for consistency, or add adjectives for graphics and soundtrack. "Vibrant" should be used to describe the game's graphics not atmosphere.
  • I thought it would be easier to remove the adjectives. JAGUAR  17:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • was released during the 1996 holiday season. - change it to December 1996
  • Done. JAGUAR  17:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Claris, Elliot, and Nights have gone on to make cameo appearances in other video games developed by Sonic Team and Sega. - Perhaps too detailed for the lead.
  • I agree. I've removed this sentence from the lead as it sounds a tad irrelevant too. JAGUAR  17:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Gameplay[edit]

  • Would be really great if you can tell me which page of the magazine you are using. Something like Rockstar Games Presents Table Tennis, so I don't need to read the eight pages again and again when I am checking for accuracy/close paraphrasing.
  • @AdrianGamer: I got a question. Should I convert the Sega Saturn Magazine scan (ref 1) into a harvref and add it to a bibliography section? I've never actually attempted doing this before but it would be helpful to make the use of page numbers, especially as I'm considering a possibility of taking this to FAC if all goes well. JAGUAR  17:21, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I looked at how Rockstar Games Presents Table Tennis does it but I'm not sure if magazines can be used in a bibliography section. I'm going to attempt it anyway and see what happens... JAGUAR  17:25, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I made a shot at it. I hope I did it right. JAGUAR  18:12, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Previously completed stages may be revisited to improve the player's high scores - The magazine explains how points are given to players. They should be included.
  • Added a bit about points, although they aren't a large part of the game. JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Each level is split up into four "Mares" set in Nightopia and a boss fight which takes place in Nightmare. - wikilink boss fight
  • Done JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • GamesRadar source does not tell me anything about the C grade part. The magazine does.
  • Fixed JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • In the flying sections, the player controls Nights' flight along a particular predetermined route through each Mare. - Should add that this section play like a 2D platform game, supported by the GRadar source.
  • Added JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • one of the stolen Ideya by collecting 20 blue chips and delivering them to the cage holding the Ideya - "Ideyas"
  • Fixed JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • as well as defeat certain enemies littered across the field. - What enemies they face actually?
  • Regarding the enemies themselves, they appear as fantasy-like creatures. Not sure how to explain that as the magazine only uses the word "enemies" once. Only the bosses are described vividly. Not sure how to rephrase this, so I used "reverie enemies". JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Grabbing onto certain enemies will cause Nights to spin around, launching Nights and the enemy in the direction the boost is pressed. - should be written in present tense
  • Fixed. JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • If the player walks around the landscape for too long, they will be pursued by a sentient alarm clock which will wake up the character and end the level if it comes in contact with the player. - Is this the time limit mentioned in the lead? You should mention it here again.
  • This is separate as the time limit is only initiated once the player becomes Nights. I clarified this at the end of the paragraph. JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • a precursor to the Chao system featured in Sonic Team's later Sonic Adventure titles. - irrelevant to this game.
  • Removed and merged JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The article does not include any information about power-ups and multiplayer, which are mentioned by the magazine
  • The magazine mentions everything! Added some about both. JAGUAR  13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Plot[edit]

  • I feel like the plot setting explains the characters quite well, and a separate list of character list is unnecessary
  • WP:VG/GL gave me confidence to include a separate character list, but I removed it and merged some of the content into the setting and plot sections. JAGUAR  14:30, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • This isn't a plot section. This feels more like a setting section. Can you expand it so that it include the game's full story, or at least mention the game's ending?
  • The game doesn't have much of a sophisticated plot, but I managed to expand it a bit from using the prose in the character list. In addition, I created two new subheadings, "setting" and "plot". If anyone has any other suggestions, I'll be happy to rework it. The game has a neat but short ending, but nevertheless I mentioned it. JAGUAR  14:30, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Development/ports[edit]

  • whilst Takashi Iizuka undertook the role of leading designer after replacing Hirokazu Yasuharu, who chose to remain in the United States while he worked on Sonic X-treme. - source 13 does not mention anything about this. Is "who chose to remain in the United States while he worked on Sonic X-treme." relevant to this game? The game was developed in the US but not Japan, so this shouldn't be the obvious reason why he was replaced.
  • I removed that sentence as I couldn't find it any source JAGUAR  14:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • once "more programmers" started to arrive - I don't think you need to use quotation marks here. I don't think this would be counted as close paraphrasing.
  • Removed JAGUAR  14:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • the speed gradually increased - change "speed" to "gameplay pace"
  • Done JAGUAR  14:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • In a 2007 interview, Naka stated that Christmas Nights was conceptualised in order to increase the sales of the Saturn consoles - The one being interviewed is Iizuka. This part should be moved to the Christmas Nights part instead.
  • Corrected to Iizuka. I'm not sure if this would seem relevant in the Christmas Nights section as the development covers both games in this article. Another source also states that the original Nights was a basic "marketing tool" JAGUAR  14:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The controller, according to the Saturn magazine, can make controls easier and more accurate. This should be included.
  • Added JAGUAR  14:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Related games[edit]

  • Sonic the Hedgehog level was removed. - wikilink Sonic the Hedgehog
  • Done. JAGUAR  14:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • This isn't included in the GA scope, but I do think that Christmas Nights has the potential to get split off from the article.
  • Possibly, but I think this is in similar vain to Pokemon Black & White. I'm not sure if it could have its own article, as it could be considered an "add on" because it only features a Christmas remake of two levels. Might have to gain a consensus before anything is split... JAGUAR  14:59, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • the title screen label "Nights: Limited Edition" is changed to "Winter Nights", with the greenery of the environment being replaced by snow. - not supported by the sources.
  • Removed all, but I found a source supporting the snow so I implemented it later on in the paragraph. JAGUAR  18:05, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • as was initially planned for Air Nights. - Dreamcast has Wii Remote control?
  • Rephrased JAGUAR  18:05, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Reception/Legacy[edit]

  • The second paragraph of the reception section is massive. Try to split it into at least two paragraphs
  • Done JAGUAR  18:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • GI, GamePro, Player One, Sega Power, Sega Saturn Magazine, Entertainment Weekly reviews aren't really used in the reception section. Remove them from the template, or include them in the section
  • Sega Saturn Magazine is used in prose ("Sam Hickman of the Sega Saturn Magazine praised the visuals and colour"), however I'm not sure about removing the others from the template. I don't have access to the articles above so only the scores are listed in the review box. I see this used a lot in other VG articles as I think it adds further insight on the scores it received from other publications. I checked WP:VG/GL and it appears to be used frequently in older video games JAGUAR  18:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • (which utilised the same game engine from Nights into Dreams...[56]) - It isn't really relevant.
  • Removed JAGUAR  18:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • and telling them about their friend, Nights - Not mentioned by the source
  • Removed (found in a YouTube video, but, meh). JAGUAR  18:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • A Nights into Dreams... handheld electronic game was released by Tiger Electronics,[31] and a port of it was later released for Tiger's unsuccessful R-Zone console. - Shouldn't this be included in the port section or the related games section?
  • Good point; moved to the Port section since it's more or less the same game JAGUAR  18:11, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

References/EL[edit]

  • GamesRadar, not Gamesradar, or Games Radar
  • I always get this wrong! JAGUAR  18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • GamesTM, not Games TM
  • Fixed JAGUAR  18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Famitsu should be put in the work field of a citation since it is a magazine.
  • Done JAGUAR  18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't think Fanatics Gaming (ref 23), The-MagicBox.com (Ref 49) are reliable sources.
    Magic Box is listed as reliable at WP:VG/RS.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:56, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Removed Fanatics Gaming. JAGUAR  18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Ref 58 looks like it is user-submitted.
  • Found something else and replaced JAGUAR  18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Is Satakore an appropriate external link? I have never seen it being used in other articles.
  • Looks good for Sega Saturn games, but I'll go ahead and remove it. I wonder how many Sega Saturn GAs there are out there... JAGUAR  18:27, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Image[edit]

  • Nights flying through Elliot's first level, Splash Garden, in the Saturn version. - Is there any gameplay features shown in this gameplay image?
  • Expanded JAGUAR  18:30, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
  • A still image of gameplay from Christmas Nights, showing the altered features of the game. - What exactly are the altered features shown?
  • Only visuals. Reworded JAGUAR  18:30, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Overall[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. Has an appropriate reference section:
    B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

Overall it is a well-written article but there is quite a lot of original research. I will leave the article on hold for few days. When all the issues raised above are fixed, this should be good to go! AdrianGamer (talk) 06:27, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

@AdrianGamer: thank you for the comprehensive review! I've attempted to address everything. The only part I missed were the additional scores in the review box, as I think it allows the reader to view what scores other publications gave the game (that aren't in the prose because a couple of them are in foreign languages or can't be accessed online). Regarding the harvrefs, I only knew how to use the editor's surname rather than the actual name of the article (if that makes sense). I'm open to adding more stuff to the bibliography if required. I'd like to take this to FAC soon, as a lot of effort has been put into this one. I'm not sure how to proceed on that yet though. It's Christmas tomorrow and I will most likely not be online, so if anything is outstanding I'll be able to get to it either the next day or the day after that. If so, hope you have a good Christmas! JAGUAR  18:36, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
It is a guideline from Template:video game reviews, so you will end up removing them if you take the article to FAC. I have temporarily hid the review. With all other issues fixed, Nights into Dreams... is now a Good article. Congratulations! AdrianGamer (talk) 03:57, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Rename[edit]

The ellipsis is in the official title, perhaps, but a quick look at the most reliable sources in the refs section show that they're not using the ellipsis when discussing the game. So I think we should drop the ellipsis as well. (If you want, you can leave it in the stylization, but I haven't looked hard enough to see whether a source supports that as a noteworthy aspect to mention.) czar 02:26, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

A-Life info[edit]

Developer interview newly translated on shmuplations. Great source for some info: http://shmuplations.com/alife/ TarkusAB 22:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Marioedit's response[edit]

I think Nights into Dreams... is a good game! I am going to play it when I get a Personal Computer (PC)! Marioedit8 (talk) 00:50, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Burning Rangers[edit]

I think Burning Rangers deserves a spot in related games. It is the only other Sega Saturn game to use the NiGHTS engine. Also BR has the same gems as used in the NiGHTS logo, as an additional homage. Any objections? 73.90.210.162 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:07, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

PS2 "remake"[edit]

The article states that the Japan-only PS2 version of the game was a remake, but it wasn't - it's most definitely an enhanced port. Unfortunately, the current citation says it's a remake. Does anyone know of any other sources we can use? I can only find one, [1] which refers to it as a port.