Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 12

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Tesla was a Serbian -American inventor

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --ChetvornoTALK 22:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Was there any consensus to change this or did somenone changed it without permission ? As far as I know there should be discussion before you change this and Tesla was not Croatian -Serbian -American inventor he was Serbian -American inventor and also he could not have croatian citizenship because Croatia did not exsited back then ,someone is clearly illegally using their editing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

For lineage, we need reliable sources not consensus. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:05, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
User:FlightTime, I see you are new here so let me just say that reliable sources mean nothing here as can be seen from this discussion [1] 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 07:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
What do you mean "new here" I've been around over 10 years and if you mean new to this conversation, I don't give a shit about this conversation, to me this is just ongoing trolling. What I do care about is reliable sources, I stand on my comment above and please don't ever ping me again. Cheers, - FlightTime (open channel) 12:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
And where is reliable source that he had croatian citizenship , when Croatia at that time did not existed as a country ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Tesla's citizenship was extensively discussed previously. You can find the topic in the archive. The summary is that it is more complex than "Croatia didn't exist" (which itself is false). 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 06:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Also, do you care to explain why is The Triune kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia (which doesn't exist by your account) issuing a passport to Tesla (which isn't it's citizen by your account)? Here's Tesla's passport [2] 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 07:35, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Everything is allready clearly explained by FkpCascais ,for further information please check the article on Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 14:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Fkp is a known POV pusher and I didn't bother to read his wall of unsourced text. His interpretations are irrelevant even if he wasn't a known POV pusher, since he never provides any source. I don't care about Wikipedia article which is full of claims inserted by POV pusher, I care about sources. Tesla's passport is a primary source. I can make my own interpretations based on that. Tesla's claim that he was born in Croatia is also a primary source, I can make my own interpretations based on that, however since Wikipedia requires a secondary source, I spent some time finding a source that says that MF and Croatia were a single land. One objective editor has recongised that and they tried to ban him, so much for good faith on this thread. 2A01:C22:7644:7100:98DA:B36D:4004:33D1 (talk) 19:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

There are few problems with your claims and there is a reason why the main article is written the way it is. So far I have searched for some texts to check your sources and since I also speak German I was looking to some german texts and also DE wikipedia to see is that what you claim true, so far what I have seen is that FkpCascais is telling the truth , so he is definetly not a POV pusher , in every text there is exactly the same explanation that there was no triune kingdom , that Croatia-Slavonia was autonomous teritory under Hungarian rule with 55 precent tax payments to Budapest (after 1867.) in return they had some freedom but it was not independent kingdom eventhough there was a strong support to become one (but also a veto from the Hungarian side), that Dalmatia was under the rule of Cisleithania and MK too until it was disband and that happened in 1881. 25 years after Tesla birth and since we are nitpicking there are few issues with Reisepass to in comparing it with other ones from that time like the lack of official stamps on a bottom left corner and the meaning of Landesregierung (regions goverment) on a top right - it seems that you are trying to put different time periods in one ,that you are mixing 1790-is with 1867. with 1881. and so on. I have allready promised that I will cool down, so I am not discussing this subject anymore but I would like to recommend you to be more precise in your theories in the future, the main article was written by a lot of editors , neutral ones too — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

There is a bunch of other documents from from the Triune Kingdom, not just Tesla's passport. How can it be when it didn't exist , one may ask. Why is it issuing passport to Tesla if Tesla wasn't its citizen? All valid questions one can ask. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C23:BC16:4A00:7472:8685:1193:BFAB (talk) 05:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
You are missing entirelly the point. Lets ignore the unfair remarks you´ve made against me, and, I will really assume GF believing you are really objective and neutral and you just want the truth. So, let me explain you your mistake.
You found a source, an old text from a Croatian historian, which at certain point talks about a specific event in history, which was the negociation and creation of Nagodba, and he narrates what´s written there and who were the signatires. This is what you believe is enough to go around Wikipedia and assume those paragraphs regarding Nagodba are the ultra-reality.
So, if I were to do the same, I could go and see the Treaty of Bucharest (1812), see what was agreed, the signatires (all participants did), and see the Article 8 saying Serbian rebels archived authonomy for Serbia. (It´s there, right? See it?)
With that, I would ignore everything else, and describe everywhere Serbia as authonomous in historical events in following times. I have a text saying in the important international Treaty of Bucharest Serbia gained authonomy and it is signed by all intervenients. So, who cares that in reality Ottomans crushed the rebbelds, suppressed any authonomy or local power, murdered and assasined hundreds of notable Serbs to prevent a new revolt, crushed the Hadži-Prodan's rebellion, and by ignoring by all means what was signed in 1812 in Bucharest, led to a new Serbian revolt Second Serbian Uprising years later.
So, you can´t go around cherry-picking one source (actually, cherry-picking a paragraph from that source) just because it suits you, and ignore that all historical events after it don´t match with that.
The putovnica by itself is not evidence of nothing more than Croatian authorities claiming Dalmatia under their jurisdiction as well. But, putovnice are not evidence by themselves. I have a Portuguese passport and neither I was born in Portugal, neither any of my family members was, neither I am Portuguese ethnically. Another curiosity, Portugal issued passports claiming their Portuguese Empire much longer it had no control anymore of much of the territories that were still shown in the passport. The issue of the putovnica back then is not at all that simple as you paint it: "He had a Croatian putovnica, means he is Croatian". It was a time when many Europeans were not that much warried about the origin of the document that will give them travel permit to USA, they just wanted one valid. It is known that at New York harbour the statistics of the origin of the documents didnt match the ethnicity of the travellers, people were labelled as Austrians, Croatians, Italians, despite many being Serbs, Romanians, Czezchs, just because they were labelled by the origin of their boat, where the travel documents were propably issued for the ones not having one, and there they weren´t able to choose but rather had to accept the only available, local one of that port.
You say there is a bunch of documents about the Triune Kingdom, which ones? FkpCascais (talk) 18:31, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
The source is secondary source and it doesn't need your biased interpretations. Tesla perfectly well knew where he was born when he said : 'I was born in Croatia' . I needed no more than this primary source to win an argument, but since wikipedia works with secondary sources, I put in some time to find one as well. The triune kingdom obviously existed in one form or another, since it was issuing official documents. So to summarize. 1. The king proclaimed that MF, Croatia and Slavonia constitute a single land. 2. Tesla said that he was born in Croatia. 3. Tesla applied for a passport in the offices of the triune kingdom. Seems to me that Tesla perfectly well knew which is his home country. Maybe for you the triune kingdom doesnt exist, but for Tesla it obviously did.
95.168.120.18 (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, your source is secundary where it is said what was signed there and by who. However, it doesn´t say nothing about the future results or consequences of it. It´s like a report of a marriage. You can have someone writting "He said yes, she said yes" but with just that we cannot conclude "they lived happily for ever till end of times". That is why I made the comparison with 1812 Buchareast Treaty, we can find sources saying what was agreed there and who were all the ones that signed it, but unless we have more reliable sources saying the agreements there were respected afterwords (and in both cases weren´t) all we have is just that.
No, you do need more reliable secundary sources confirming Croatia became the Triune Kingdom after the signing of that agreement. Unfortunatelly, we both know there are none, because the agreement was simply ignored by Austrians and Hungarians, which kept Croatia and Slavonia separated from Dalmatia forever until 1918.
Tesla said he was born in Croatia in a time his birthplace was already within Yugoslavia within Croatia. So, you can´t claim he was refering to the time of his birth when he said that. And, furthermore, we know the complexity of the events when he said that, and he said it full of second intentions, which, by the way, were not favorable to Croatia at all, but rather favorable of Serbian dinasty ruling Yugoslavia and critic regarding Croatian separatist aspirations.
Tesla says nothing about Triune Kingdom, and the entire claim of Triune Kingdom goes down as soon as we see the original Tesla hischool grades from Varazdin highschool which are all in German and certified by Militargrentze everywhere, no mention of any Croatia anywhere. FkpCascais (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
On the contrary, the whole book describes Croatia at that time in great detail.My source clearly states separated administration and representation. No problem with that. As everyone can clearly see, Tesla's passport was issued by the Triune kingdom. Anyone objective can ask himself why did Tesla apply for a passport there and how come something that doesn't exist is issuing passports. Anyone could up to recently go to the Triune Kingdom wiki page and see that the triune kingdom was 'a formal entity within Austro Hungarian Empire' (and that's a quote from yet another source that I posted). You are misunderstanding. Triune Kingdom was formed in 1867, however even before MF was a part of Croatia per this source that I posted. Tesla said that he was born in Croatia. You interpret it how you want. I posted reliable secondary sources that confirm MF was a part of Croatia, and I believe that is enough for objective people.95.168.118.2 (talk) 20:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Besides that source, what other English-language source you have confrming Triune Kingdom existed?
Another thing, you see, I was born in Belgrade. If I am asked today where I was born, I say "Serbia". So my answer doesn´t reflect the historical accuracy of the geopolitics of the moment I was born, but simply where that place belongs today. I will answer "Serbia" all time, but I wasn´t born in Serbia, I was born in Yugoslavia. FkpCascais (talk) 21:04, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
No, my source deals with the time period of Tesla's birth. Triune kingdom was established later. Who am I to you? Go to the library or search the internet for yourself. Triune kingdom is not the subject when talking about Tesla's birthplace. What I'm saying here and what I consider enough (bdw I see what you did on the Triune Kingdom article where you removed reliable sources , it seems I will have to open a RfC again) is that it is interesting that Tesla's passport was issued by the "non-existing" Triune Kingdom, that it's interesting why Tesla didn't ask for a passport from Austria, but he asked it from the Triune Kingdom. It's also interesting that King would proclaim that MF and Croatia constitute a single land. Also interesting is that Tesla himself said that he was born in Croatia. Also interesting that Tesla's matriculation exam lists Croatia as "homeland" and Croatian as mother tongue. Serbia was a state withing Yugoslavia so you were born in Yugoslavia and also in Serbia which has since become independent. Tesla was born in Austrain Empire and also in Croatia which since then became a part of Yugoslavia and today it's independent, that's why he choose to say that he was born in Croatia (as it seems logical to me). If he choose to say that he was born in Croatia, and if his highschool diploma lists Croatia as his homeland in 1872 (before MF was abolished) and if I put a secondary source saying MF and Croatia constituted a single land and if you don't want to accept any of those arguments, I can't help you. You and other few editors here who appear only when someone seriously threaten the POV you have inserted into the article have proven long ago that you are not objective. A few months ago you and one other editor wanted to ban another editor for trying to include the consecutive sentence from the source whose 1st sentence was already in the article. The sentence that mentions Croatia. Well if you feel you have accomplished something by cherrypicking one sentence and hiding the consecutive sentence (which explicitly says Tesla was born in Croatia) that doesn't go along your interpretation that Tesla had no connections to Croatia whatsoever, then congratulations. You found the meaning of life. 2A02:810D:94C0:6EBB:9919:B4C6:A782:3256 (talk) 21:56, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
OK, since you dont bring any new scholar sources backing up your point, we can just go around seing the Austro-Hungarian-related articles and see there was no united Croatian Triune Kingdom. That is where you fail. You are cherry-picking a source and failing to have any of that included in corresponding articles. FkpCascais (talk) 23:29, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Just find a neutral reliable source saying Kingdom of Dalmatia became ever part of some "Triune Kingdom", please. FkpCascais (talk) 23:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
Regarding Military Frontier, all academic sources confirm it lasted until 1881. We see in Tesla life that Military Frontier was alive and kicking during his time there. You claim it was united with Croatia in 1850 but we see Tesla official highschool grades from Karlovac all in German, with German as main language (as it was in Military Frontier; in Croatia was Croatian), and all papers had official seals, badges and simbols screaming Militargrentze (Military Frontier), meaning it was clearly them running the school. There is no mention of Croatia, Croatia-Slavonia, or anything other than Militargrentze. Five years later, Military Frontier was so still live and kicking that was giving scholarships for their best students, and Tesla got one, and moved to Graz, where he followed his studies and formed a Serbian Cultural Club. Wanting to include Croatia into this is really impossible. Even more when we know Croatia existed at that time, it was just not related to the places Tesla was born and grow-up. Croatia was also under Austro-Hungarian empire, it was just another province, with different location and territory from the one Tesla was involved with. And that is what becomes important here. You can´t say a person was born in a place when at time that place existed but in another location. Smiljan and the area Tesla was born in and grew-up at was incorporated into Croatia in 1881. In 1879 Tesla father died, he moved to Prague, he was in Maribor and returned to Gospic where he was a local teacher in the local school, in 1880 he moves to Prague, 1881 to Budapest, where he starts seriously working. In 1882 he starts working for Edison company in Paris, and in 1884 he moves to United States.
The last meaningfull time he spends around his birthplace was in 1879 when he returns to Gospic after his father died and teaches in local school. Even that visit was still within Military Frontier. When Croatia took control of the area, he was already away seriously engaged in his work, travelling between Budapest and Paris until he left for the States in 1884. His entire youth and childhood were spent in Military Frontier. Croatia was a neighbouring province where he was not born in, did not lived in, and did not studied in. If I am working in Portugal, I can´t say I am working in Spain just because I want to. Same with Tesla. Sorry. FkpCascais (talk) 03:15, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
Sure. We've seen what happens when someone wants to include a source mentioning Croatia. First you separate this discussion from the talk page so its less visible, then you ignore any request and if someone is more persistent, he is being personally attacked by the same group of editors. Can you explain why have you cherry picked the first of these 2 sentences to the article and tried to ban the guy who wanted to add the consecutive sentence explaining what MF is? "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". Is it normal to make such claims as you do and at the same time manipulate with the sources by extracting one sentence out of the context and putting it such to the article?95.168.118.9 (talk) 05:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
§Please indent your comments properly. No one is against the inclusion of anything as long it is correct and goes along the historical accuracy agreed by main historiography. That source you are citing is obviously very uninformed about historical accuracies as it even fails to acknolledhe the difference between Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) and Military Frontier. It would be like a source saying Portugal is a province of Spain, it would get diqualified inmediaelly. FkpCascais (talk) 18:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
So one sentence of the source is ok and you and few others have included it into the article, but the consecutive one which explains the first one is wrong according to you so you have prevented an editor who wanted to include it to the point of person attacks? That's such an obvious POV pushing and cherry picking. The editor even said that you were very rude to him. Sure, Horvat's secondary source which directly quoues the primary source is wrong. This secondary source which says the same thing is wrong. Even Tesla himself is wrong when he said he was born in Croatia. Luckily we have you here to explain it to us. Horvat defines it perfectly. A single land with disaggregated representation and administration. You are constantly focusing on disaggregated representation and administration which is true. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it still was a single land. You can't cherry pick what you like and consider yourself objective. You were already banned for POV pushing. How much credibility do you think your unsourced claims have? 31.45.226.26 (talk) 20:01, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
Lets clarify one thing: you are the one wanting to alter content in the article, not me. So you don´t get to call me POV-pusher just because you feel so. Your edit proposals are being rejected not because of me, but because they go against the consensus which was already reached over this matter some time ago. Back then, you presented the same exact sources using the same exact arguments. Yes, Horvat is clear about what was written and signed at the event from 1850 he is refering to, however, it was demonstrated by numerous editors presenting a considerable ammount of reliable sources, that what was written and signed at the event Horvat is refering to, ended being ignored, and consequent events were totally different. No, Croatia was not allowed to form the Triune Kingdom in 1850, not even later, and Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) was not allowed any authority over any part of the Military frontier in 1850. You can go back and see the entire list of sources backing this up, and even Tesla live by itself also confirms it with its 1870 highschool grades from Karlovac where clearly states Military Frontier helds control over educational sistem within MF, and not Croatia, Slavonia, Triune Kingdom, or any other entity. Subsequently, Tesla receves as late as 1875 a scholarship from the Military Frontier, so that again confirms the places Tesla was born and studied in, were under MF authority still 25 years later than what your source claims they became part of Croatia. So I really can´t interpret your attitude any different then just simple denial of facts, and insistence by all means of an inclusion of incorrect information into the article. We been trough a long discussion with many participants and consensus was reached, Tesla was born and studied in the Military Frontier, not Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg), or now your new version, Triune Kingdom, no he didn´t, and on the other side, Tesla father and maternal grand-father were not priests of the Serbian Orthodox Church, but simply Eastern Orthodox Church, because Serbian OC didn´t existed at that time as a unified church.
So, Croatian POV-pushers need to come with some new evidence if they want to change this consensus (you came with none, just same old source we analised zillion times), and Serbian POV-pushers need to come up with some new evidence that at time Tesla father and grand-father were priests there was some "Serbian Orthodox Church", and bring new evidence for that, otherwise, just both sides live with it and stop accusing editors opposing changes against consensus as "other-side POV-pushers". I am done and out, and I will not tolerate more insults to my person indeed. FkpCascais (talk) 01:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't want to edit the article. It's perfectly fine to say that Tesla was born in Austrian Empire in what later became Croatia. I'm just pointing to your wrong interpretation that back then MF didn't have anything to do with Croatia when in fact it constituted the same land. Nothing that was signed in 1850 ended being ignored. That agreement just defined MF as a part of Croatia de-jure which later led to abolishment of the separate administration. Horvat was never discussed as a source, anyone can read the previous discussion and see what you and other POV pushers did to the editor who wanted to discuss it. You personally attacked him and pushed the closure without allowing any new editors to review the source which clearly goes against your interpretations. Not allowing the discussion but pushing your own opinion is clearly against wiki policies. He even said that you were very rude to him. 95.168.118.10 (talk) 06:52, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Detailed answer here. I am glad we agree on respecting the consensus and that no one wants to make any edits that go against it. About my allegedly wrong interpretation, I gave a respectfull detailed explanation why the consensus is correct and why would an eventual suggestion of some claiming Military Frontier was Croatia, or part of Croatia, wrong. I will just ask you to stop from now on to give me such relevance, because plenty of editors participated in those discussions, many of them senior editors, they saw the sources, arguments, and reached their conclusions on their own. Blaiming me is just denial that editors really don´t agree with your claims. FkpCascais (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
The article is correct but confusing to some, and subjectable to misinterpretations like yours. Croatia and MF constituted a single land from 1850, and that's a claim supported by secondary and primary sources from my side and no sources from your side. You can speak as much as you want how Tesla got a diploma from MF and so on, but that doesn't go against Horvat which claims that the administration was separated. No one has discussed the Horvat source since I have posted it here . How much you and other few editors have POV pushed your stand is seen in the last post by Bilsersic. You have on purpose removed a consequented sentence which explains the previous one and when that editor complained, you wanted to ban him and close the discussion so no new editors can join and objectively see your POV pushing (and you have just now in this discussion said that the sentence is wrong and that it doesn't deserve to be included in the article which by itself is and admission of POV pushing, you can't cherry pick sentences out of a context from a source). BDW as I can see, Tesla's highschool diploma lists Croatia as homeland and Croatian as mother thongue.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.246.236 (talk) 20:30, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
I have Tesla himself saying he was born in Croatia , I have Horvat's source saying that MF and Croatia are one land with separated administration (the exact opposite of your made up claims that it can't be the same land since administration is separated) and that source directly references primary sources. I have other, newer sources which are already included into the article, saying the same thing, sources from which you have cherry picked sentences to hide that fact. I have Tesla's highschool diploma saying his homeland is Croatia (back when MF still existed, during his highschool education, before 1881), that his mother language is Croatian, as primary sources. How many sources do you have? Why are you so adament to negate any connection Tesla had with Croatia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.246.236 (talk) 20:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Well ,you see it wrong as usual. It can not list Croatia as his homeland since Croatia did not existed as a independent country,Croatia was an autonomous territory included in A-H empire the language can be serbian equally as croatian, but the diploma was written in german. You are trying to "prove" something that is obviusly incorrect. And it is even shown in sources that you posted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC) Well it is enough to see the sources that you had posted, it seems that you do not understand the basic sistematisation. so let"s explain it. First of all ,just by looking at the passport we can see on the top right corner that it clearly says landesregierung -Landesregieurung is something that exists even today in every germanic country and it means it constitutes a regional goverment or the goverment of one Bundesland,(for instance Bavarien) it does not mean that those countries are independent since they are paying taxes to the main body and are responsive to Bundesregierung.Croatia at that time was clearly not a independent country or a kingdom because it payed most of it"s taxes (55 %) to Budapest, MK was disbaned in 1881. Tesla was born in 1856. You are constantly repeating yourself that you have found sources, and you think that the editors wrote the main article from what ,from their own head, without any other sources? And besides qouting only one historian (you are constantly repeating Horvat ) does not mean you are right ,it means only that you are agreeing on what he says, and like you friend here Serius19 ,you too are quite agressive in your statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 21:21, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Can his diploma list Croatia as Tesla's homeland or not in your opinion is irrelevant since it does. That's a primary source and I'm allowed to mention it here. Croatia was at the time of Tesla's birth a crown land of Austrian Empire. MF was on the other hand not a crown land, but a part of the same land. Even on Tesla's passport you can see the king's title, a "king of Dalmatia,Croatia, Slavonia". Yes German was official language in MF, so diploma is on German, Croatian on the other hand was Tesla's mother language, as said on his diploma. You can like it or not, but it is written on his highschool diploma. No one said that Croatia was independent, however Austrian Empire was a joint empire of several kingdoms, as you can see in king's titles. Neither Austria was independent by itself. Tesla was born in Austrian Empire, more specific, Croatian part. Separate administration in MF was abolished in 1881, correct. However MF was a part of Croatia, not a separate land as indicated by the sources. Horvat is not the only source. Many sources say Tesla was born in Croatia, none are saying he wasn't. For instance one source says in the first sentece MF and in the other it explains that MF was a part of Croatia. From that source a few editors have cherry picked the first sentence and personally attacked the editor who pointed out that the first sentence is taken out of the context of the second one.
It's obvious that you have your feeling to much invested into it , since you go so far to contradict Tesla himself when he said that he was born in Croatia. I'd think Tesla knew where he was born. But just in case you think Tesla was lying or something like that, I posted secondary sources which say the same thing, Horvat, and some other. You can not make ridiculous claims like the one with 55% tax, but those claims are your own and made up 141.136.246.236 (talk) 16:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Made up ??? Wow talking with someone who is obviously pushing his own pretensions to false facting, it is your problem if you do not accept the facts ,but those are facts ,I allready posted the link on that too, second : you are contradicting yourself, when it says in passport that Emperor Joseph (Austrian) is King of "Dalmatia ,Croatia ,Slavonia" - it clearly implies that those territories where separate under the rule of Emeperor Joseph Austrian Empire, hence the real fact ,Tesla was born in Austrian Empire, in MF region and that is a fact contrary towards your beliefs and your continous creditation to Croatia (a territory of A-H empire) ,which by the way had also nothing to do with today"s Croatia, it is obvous what are you trying to do here and it has nothing to do with historical facts, more with politics - And I am going to Qoute you now : " Tesla was born in Austrian Empire, more specific, Croatian part. Separate administration in MF was abolished in 1881" - So He was born in Military Krajina which is separate administration ,but everything was a formal part of Austrian Empire, I think you could agree on that too ,since you wrote it yourself. I do not see the problem and the article says the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What's a false facing to provide a secondary source saying that in 1850 it was oficially proclaimed that MF and Croatia and Slavonia are the same land? Maybe Horvat is false facting, but I'm just quoting Horvat. I did not put any other interpretation to that claim, just the quote from the source in the full context. It says in the middle of Tesla's passport "...king...of Croatia Slavonia and Dalmatia", but that's irrelevant to the case. I'm just pointing it out that it doesn't say "the kind of MF" for which it might be some reason. Someone might find that interesting why it doesn't say MF. The reason may be that MF was a part of Croatia as the king has proclaimed it in 1850, as the source says. I agree that Tesla was born in MF, but I have pointed out that MF and Croatia constituted the same land. There's no problem with the article , but your interpretation. The constant arguments over the last 10 years, as the other editor pointed out imply that the article is written in a confusing way that leads to misinterpretations. 141.136.246.236 (talk) 19:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I think that your interpretation is problem. Mf in that period was part of Austria, and it was disbanded in 1881. after which was under the rule of Croatia (so 1856. is different than an 1881.) but the piont stays the same. Croatia was always a part of A-H Empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

MF was not a part of Austria but a separate administrative unit under military administration which happened to be in Vienna. I don't have an interpretation. I have provided a quote saying that in 1850 it was officially recognized that MF and Croatia are the same land but with separated administration and representation. Your interpretation is that the separate administration means separate land which is obviously in direct contradiction to the source I have provided. No one is contesting that Croatia was a part of AH empire. 141.136.246.236 (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Tell it to the people who are cherry picking sentences out of a context and then trying to ban people who point that out. 95.168.118.8 (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
@Serious19, don´t be so sure of that. I know there are many groups of immigrants as the ones you described, chasing the American dream, but Tesla was not at all one of them. He didn´t "dissappeared" to the US after finishing his studies, he was already working and performing so remarkably well at what was one of the most advanced projects in the entire world, electrical instalation in Paris. The project included the collaboration of several avangarde companies at time, and he was included in the Continental Edison Company. Edison manager Batchellor, after overseeing Paris installation, insisted to bring Tesla to New York. With a promisse of better conditions, and an opportunity to work having in his disposition a wider variety of tools, it is not hard to understand why Tesla accepted it. But it is far, very far, from the story of a "poor boy going after American dream" and once there, forgetting about his origins. Actually, Tesla never forgot his origins, he would cite the nature of his homeland as inspiration for many of his discoveries, and he would not rarelly collaborate with newspappers writting about the events that were happening in Europe and had as protagonists Austro-Hungary, Serbia, Ottoman and Russian empires, and the complicated situation in Balkans. After WWI he became citizen of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (renamed Yugoslavia in 1929) and he kept close contacts with the embassy stuff from Washington. Not only Tesla was the opposite of the tipical immigrant to the US, he never indicated no interest in the American dream of becoming famous and rich, but he rather kept his esotheric way of life inherited from his Orthodox education from back home, and his interest in Serbian mythological poetry, Jovan Jovanović Zmaj, and connection between the two, the tradition and inovation. He became member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts in 1937, and was active in the pro-Yugoslav/Serbian (pro-monarchic) lobbie. Opposite to what you claim, Tesla really never felt comfortably in the American society. To me personally leaves me more the impression that he was in US because NY represented the center of the world and because it was the place he would have the best conditions to develop his works. Obviously, he was "American" having his entire life in mind, but far from some sort of description as sort of "American" as Kirk Douglas was. FkpCascais (talk) 22:30, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


Edited your text? I didn´t touched any of your content. It´s only possible if we edited in same time and something happend, but I can´t see it, if you could provide a diff maybe we could find out what happened, because I certainly didn´t touched your comment intentionally, and if it some of those cases when two edits at same time mess with the content of one another, I would have no problems in fixing it and I hope it didn´t caused any upset.
Regarding your comment, I hope at least you learned from this "guys" here that Tesla didn´t just finished his studies and desapeared to US, but Tesla spent almost half a decade "earning" his invitation to the US by doing remarcable work in what were ammong the most advanced projects by then in Europe. So, next time, please be more respectfull towards the editors (even the IP regardless of being wrong for zillion time, he is presenting sources and arguments, and our job here is to evaluate and confirm their veracity as borring as may it seem; so he is an editor to you, not "some guy"). So, if you have something to contribute with, you are welcome, but if you came here just to remind us how "we" should all be proud of Tesla while afterwords showing not knowing even about his early work in Europe, well, I wish you remember also Tesla teaches us about humildity, and how humans should apply it. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
FkpCascais has strong opinions not based in any sources. In this discussion he even admitted it's ok to take one sentence out of a context of the following one and put it such in the article because the in his opinion the following one is incorrect. Look at the previous discussion to see what they did to the editor who pointed that out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.246.236 (talk) 21:11, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
Everyone is different. They managed to push their POV and there's really no reason to discuss here. He can simply ignore like the other few editors are doing, until someone becomes more persistent, then join in with the personal attacks. However regarding the respect for different opinions, for instance you came here to call shame on all of us because your opinion is that this is not productive. Not really in the tone of this post of yours. 141.136.246.236 (talk) 22:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
I presented zillion of sources, you know it well, they are all in the archives. There is no "us" and "them". Consensus was created by the content of the sources. You have presented your same sources time over time not understanding the problem. There is only you refusing to understand no Triune Kingdom was created then in 1850 or ever after regardless of your source saying it, and MF existed until 1881. Last time Tesla spent some time there was when he returned in 1879 because of his mother death and stayed one year as teacher, so, in 1881, when his birthplace was given to Croatian authority, Tesla is between Budapest and Paris, so it already doesn´t have as near as much impact as you woud like it to have had if the area was under Croatia during the time he was growing there. And then, again, he founded a Serbian Cultural Club in Graz, so clearly the culture he identified with and brought from his home and birthplace was Serbian, so why you continue beating the dead horse? You don´t even have nothing new to present. I don´t understand why are you allowed to continue this when you were indef-blocked preciselly on this issue? You can love your country and nation all you want, but you can´t add inacuracies into an encyclopedia. It is not my fault history didn´t happened the way you wanted. FkpCascais (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
You presented none. Feel free to put a single source to any of your claims. Everyone can assess for himself how valid is to call a consensus a situation where a few editors are cherry picking one sentence out of a context of the following one then personally attacking and trying to ban an user who points that out. I don't have to understand anything, I have a source and I have provided a quote from the source in the full context. Triune Kingdom was established in 1868, not 1850. MF had indeed existed until 1881 as Horvat source describes it. You refusing to comprehend a simple sentence that a single land can have disaggregated administration as the source indicates is your own. I don't know anything about this Serbian club in Graz nor I have seen any relevant sources and it does not interest me from a viewpoint of Tesla's birthplace. His Serbian ethnicity doesn't have anything to do with his homeland or his nationality. I will always point to the sources you are trying to hide and misinterpret since they don't go along your POV. If Tesla himself said that he was born in Croatia it's a worth primary source that someone should take into consideration. If we have a number of other Tesla's biographies saying that he was born in MF and Croatia and if I have provided Horvat source to disprove your claim that separate administration means MF is a separate entity from Croatia, you really don't have a strong case. What bothers you is that I'm here puting valid sources so others can see the wider picture that the one you are trying to put forward in the article itself. 141.136.246.236 (talk) 18:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I personally do not see any valid source from you that disproves the facts that are allready written in the main article. Just a different interpretation. And also his ethnicity has a lot to do with him as he is recognised in the world as a Serbian-american inventor, his nationality too in that time was also quite well described in main article. There is a reason that the article is written the way it is and it was written by a lot of different editors , not just fkpcascais (I do not know did he contributed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 19:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It's not wrong to say that Tesla was born in Austrian Empire, in the territory which later became Croatia. Everything fine, but what is not ok is to deny that the same territory was a part of Croatia (kingdom of Croatia, later Triune kingdom) at the time Tesla was born and living there. That's what the sources are telling. Tesla's ethnicity did not play any role during his lifetime. In fact it's obvious from Tesla's texts that he considered himself to be a Yugoslav and all other Yugoslav nations the same. However that's out of the scope and irrelevant to this discussion. What kind of editors are lurking here can be seen from the last discussion where several of them attacked an editor who protested for cherry picking one sentence out of the context of the following one. 141.136.246.236 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC) That is where are you are wrong .Tesla ethnicity and serbian heritage made a big role in his lifetime. The fact that he actually started a Serbian cultural club in Graz in 1874. confirms that he was well ware of his heritage. I am going to continue a disscusion below since i do want to write in 2 places at the same time. But there are lots of sources that confirm that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.5.253 (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
...the unification of the Croatian-Slavonian Military Frontier with Croatia was published on July 15, 1881. Hungary in the Dual Monarchy, 1867-1914, by László Katus, from 2008, page 68.
The Habsburg rulers menaged to free most of Croatia from the Turks by 1699. The Treaty of Carlowitz, signed in that year, acknolledged this. The newly freeded areas of Croatia regained domestic autonomy, including their own Diet, or legislature. However, the Habsburg rulers continued to exercise direct control over the area of the "Military Frontier" because of its strategic significance. The separate military governament for the "Military Frontier" was not finally abolished until 1881. The tradition of the frontier remained long after 1881. (Nordic, Central, and Southeastern Europe 2015-2016, by Wayne C. Thompson, page 432).
The Military Frontier (Militärgrenze) was a completely militarized region along the Austro-Ottoman border that existed from the first half of the sixteenth century until 1881. It was governed by military authorities under the direct command of the Court War Council (Hofkriegsrat) in Vienna.
These are some I brought by just checking the consensus discussion. It´s an insult the way you speak about other editors. There were so many editors and they are so evidently neutral and objective. Some presented you different arguments than me, for why you are wrong, but you ignore us all. What is important is that only I am Serbian editor, all others have no connection or simpathies, or reasons to be on one side or another. They all listen to you and the overwelming result was a consensus that before 1881 whatever happened in Military Frontier, happened in Military Frontier, and you can´t replace it with Croatia, or add Croatia. Regarding your source, here, page 157, the very sentence you consider so important undermines your aspiration at the very begining when it starts saying that MF will keep on being under direct authority of the (Austrian) king and will stay with same borders. Then follows saying "however (as sort of "be patient Croat people, there is hope") MF land, with Croatia and Slavonia, will form one land, but with separate provincial and military authority, as well as separate representation. So, now you say this refers to 1868? You know Croatia lost its authonomy completelly in 1867, right? And I am not refering like if it lost authority over Slavonia or MF, but for a year even Zagreb had all teaching, administrative work, even street signs replaced from Croatian to Hungarian, for a year there was no Croatia at all in an atempt of total Magyarization Hungarians pretended.
So, lets recapitulate. We have Tesla being born in Smiljan in Military Frontier in 1856. Croatia had no authority over MF, but also, in 1867 Croatia even looses authority over its own province and for a year there is no Croatia. In 1868 Croatia recovers autonomy within Hungary as before, excluding MF. In 1870 Tesla moves to Karlovac to attend highschool which regardless of its proximity with Croatian capital Zagreb, its still within MF and Tesla´s grades clearly state Militargrentze educational sistem all over, and German as main language (German was main language in MF, while Croatian or Hungarian was in Croatia, that difference is crutial). In 1874 Tesla escaped to Tomingaj (also within MF) to evade military conscription. In 1975 Tesla gained Militargrentze scholarship, and after two failled attepts to be admited in Novi Sad, then part of MF but still simbolizing the Serbian center of the Voivodeship of Serbia and Banat of Temeschwar, he is accepted at Graz, in Duchy of Styria. In 1878 Tesla moved to Maribor, also in Duchy of Styria, then in 1879 he moves to Gospić, in MF, then in 1880 moves to Prague, capital of Kingdom of Bohemia, and in 1881 finally begins working in Budapest (capital of Hungary). It is in 1881 that Croatia takes authority over the part of MF Tesla was born and grew-up. He begins his professional life and in 1884 he moves to the US. So, all in all, Tesla lives at no point at any single place under Croatian authority. You have one source saying Croatia, Slavonia and MF became "single land" but even that source specifies each kept separated at crucial aspects.
I can understand for outside people may be irrelevant all this, but historically, locally, and for precision purposes, it is important to acknolledge life in Military Frontier was a reality of its own, and one can´t just say that just because later the region became part of Croatia, saying MF or saying Croatia, is the same, because it isn´t. It is like saying Spain instead of Portugal. FkpCascais (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
So your sources are nothing in contract with what is Horvat's source saying: "Croatian and Slavonian Military Frontier the king recognizes as a „constituent part of the Triune Kingdom"; but it still can't be administratively conjoined „to its mother kingdom", because military system in the Military frontier is necessary "in the viewpoint of the strength of the whole state". This is from page 216 and a little later than 1850 from which is the previous quote, this is from 1861. So what is wrong here is only your interpretation of the previous quotes you provided that the administrative separation somehow means that MF was a separate entity from Croatia. Yes until 1881, MF, which was a constituent part of the Triune Kingdom was administratively separated, and your sources are conveying that, the same as Horvat does. Why are you so persistent with your misinterpretations? If the king says that MF was a constituent part of the Triune Kingdom and if I have provided the secondary source and if Tesla said he was born in Croatia, do your really feel that the sources you have presented and misinterpreted are stronger then ones I have provided? Please don't call upon 3 or 4 other editors who are pushing their POV here as neutral. They have personally attacked the editor who pointed a very simple thing out, that one sentence is cherry picked out of a context of the following one and put such in the article and for that they have personally attacked him and they have pushed the closure so other objective editors couldn't see what they did. I'm not ignoring anyone, Horvat source was not reviewed by anyone. Some have complained this isn't the source about Tesla, but when the editor has provided the source about Tesla that says the same thing they have ignored it. I don't case who's of which nationality I care about sources. And if someone is using one sentence from the source and hides the following one that goes against his interpretation of the first one I will always call that person a POV pusher. I don't want to replace Military Frontier with Croatia , I want to make sure readers are aware of the quote I have just provided in this post, that MF was a constituent part of the Triune Kingdom. Thank you but I can read the quote I have provided myself, the Horvat quote from page 157 is very simple to understand and it doesn't go against me in any sense. I'm not saying this quote refers to 1868, but 1850 as the source says. MF never after 1850 was considered a separate land as Horvat as the secondary source is not mentioning it nor does any other source. I'm not sure what you are trying to misinterpret by calling upon Croatia loosing its autonomy in 1867.
So let's recapitulate. We have Tesla born in MF in 1856. We have the kings proclamation from 1850 that MF and Croatia form the same land although with separate administration. We have other secondary sources (Tesla's biographies) saying that Tesla was born in Croatia. Sources from which you were cherry picking one sentence which says he was born in MF and hiding the following sentence which explains MF was a part of Croatia (you even tried to bad the editor for pointing that out). and we even have Tesla himself saying "I was born in Croatia". And furthermore Tesla's highschool diploma lists Croatia as "homeland" and Croatian as "mother language". 141.136.246.236 (talk) 17:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
It's clear to me that you have nothing like a reliable secondary source to bring to bear on the question. Your persistent personal interpretations of historic documents shows that you are violating the hard policy of WP:No original research. If you don't find a modern secondary source, you're done here. Binksternet (talk) 20:35, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
On the contrary, I have this 3 sources and I'm perfectly satisfied with them, without making any interpretations. First is a modern source, a Tesla's biography and perfectly enough by itself, but I have also made a step forward to find a non-Tesla historic secondary source and even a primary source of Tesla himself saying that he was born in Croatia.

I think that this discussion neeeds some new sources and I actually found some, since I find this subject interesting I would like to put some time in analysis, so I am going to continue on Sunday when I am free — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.5.253 (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

What you need is to stop pursuing the goal of sourcing your wish, but accept reality. Look for instance my source of Wayne C. Thompson. Read a part I haven´t highlighted which says "The tradition of the frontier remained long after 1881." See? I haven´t even noteced, but part of one of my sources says even more about Tesla and life in MF than the technical part I highlighted. You constantly ignore when I try to explain that life in MF was particular, of its own, and Tesla grew up in it. While life in what was Croatia at that time was totally different. You can´t simply ignore MF and replace it with Croatia. You see that culturally the Frontier remained its particular character and culture even after 1881 when Croatia took authority over it, and by then Tesla was already gone, so what to say about earlier when Tesla was there? That is what is important here, the cultural enviromnent Tesla was born and grew up at. This may look to some as a silly Serbo-Croat dispute, but for me this is not what this is about. For me, and I was saying it from the start, the MF while existed it had its own culture and impact over its people. It was their reality, a multi-ethnic borderland space under direct Austrian rule, which existed over 3 centuries and left a legacy long after, and which Tesla lived in its peak. I know this because I read a lot about it unrelated to Tesla, related with actual history, so its easy for me to source everything I say, because I am not trying to enforce enything on Tesla, but rather explain the relity Tesla grew-up at, and then finding sources just confirming it. Big difference there. It is a rather very particular, interesting and important reality in Tesla origin we should respect. FkpCascais (talk) 03:20, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Since I had a mini wiki-break, and you earlier left a couple of questions Binksternet ended being kind and responding to you, but didn´t went into details, to avoid leaving the impression your questions weren´t answered in detail, here we go:
You say my sources don´t contradict your idea of all being Croatia in a "single land". You can be either joking, or driving us into an insane philosophical world of different recognition and interpretation of reality than standard one. You tell us which one is it. Because, this is deeply disturbing. This is why. My first source says: "...the unification of the Croatian-Slavonian Military Frontier with Croatia was published on July 15, 1881." I believe you acknolledge "published" is the way official statements meant for "happened". So, if the Frontier and Croatia were unified in 1881, before that, they were what? A "single land"? Really? Please explain to us how are you either totally mocking us, or otherwise show us that incredible mental twitching necessary to get there to say my sources don´t contradict your statement.
My second source. Tell us, please, how can a phrase refering to Croatia and explicitelly saying that, "however, Habsburgs kept control over MF and created a separated governament" be on same side as "single land with Croatia"? How can the claim of "no Croatian control" and "separate governament from Croatia" get you to "its Croatia regardless"?
Third source saying "It was governed by military authorities under the direct command of the Court War Council (Hofkriegsrat) in Vienna", how can all that insistence on specifiying Vienna exercises direct authority over MF, get Croatia into it? What you are doing here is the same as if I have a car which is in my property and only I drive it, use it, and park it in my house, gets you into claiming that saying that car is yours is OK? It´s not OK. All 3 sources absolutelly and categorically specify MF is MF until 1881. It´s a car you can´t claim before to you or anyone else. Doing it is either dishonest or mocking us. There is no third option. FkpCascais (talk) 05:21, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
I could agree that the tradition of MF remained after 1881. Which misinterpretations exactly are you trying to make upon this? Life in MF was indeed different than in the rest of Croatia because MF was under separate, military, administration as said by Horvat. I'm not ignoring MF, I'm just saying it was formally-legally a part of Croatia with a separate administration. Who is ignoring MF is Tesla when he said that he was born in Croatia , not MF, so complain to Tesla. 89.164.199.174 (talk) 08:25, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
MF was a part of Croatia under separate administration which was abolished in 1881. That in no way contradicts any of the sources I have posted. The Horvat source explicitly says that MF was formally-legally a part of Croatia but with separate administration. Your misinterpretation here is that separate administration means separate lands, but we have a source saying exactly the opposite, the same land separate administration. You are here posting sources which rely to the aspect of separate administration. I agree with those sources because mine say the same thing, but your sources are saying nothing about the formal-legal status of MF while mine do. You, since your sources do not mention formal-legal part, have to make your own interpretation how separated administration means separate lands. The quotes you have provided do not rely to formal-legal aspect at all, while mine do. Apart from that I have posted Tesla's biography which says the same thing and even a Tesla's own statement in a hope that if you don't believe me, you could believe that Tesla was smart enough to know where he was born. 89.164.199.174 (talk) 08:38, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
MF was not part of Croatia. MF was an administrative unit same level as Croatia. That is what you fail to acknolledge. Furthermore, MF was part of Austria, and Croatia was part of Hungary, even more distance there. Today knowing in 1881 it became part of Croatia, its easy to put Croatia forward, but earlier 1881 no one kne what was MF going to become, and Croatia, even loosing all authonomy in 1867, for a year was even less than MF. FkpCascais (talk) 09:19, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
"Croatian and Slavonian Military Frontier the king recognizes as a „constituent part of the Triune Kingdom", Horvat, page 216. This is a quote from primary sources from 1861. It was very well known that military frontier will be abolished and that administration will be returned to Croatia where it formally-legally belonged, decades before 1881. The abolishment even started during 1870'. 89.164.199.174 (talk) 10:11, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
"The tradition of the frontier remained long after 1881." – The Military Frontier not only existed and had its separate distinct institutions, but most importantly, had its character and tradition which lasted even after. Croatia at time was a province extended around Zagreb with a totally distinct reality. So, before 1881, during Tesla time there, MF was one thing, Croatia another. Your very source confirms it as well, so... Koniec. FkpCascais (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
"One land formally, but with separate administration and representation". Your claim that separate administration and representation mean "MF was one thing , Croatia another", goes directly against this source. You have no source to relay to the formal-legal aspect. The quote you provided obviously doesn't rely to formal-legal aspect. I not only have secondary sources, but primary sources as well. 89.164.199.174 (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
"... technically, in the formal-lagal aspect by the words of one Croatian historian from his book from 1906, and from one of the many traties signed in 19th century, although modern-day history books fail to mention it, Military Frontier contitute a single land along Croatia and Slavonia". You think makes sense to add this to Tesla article? FkpCascais (talk) 19:09, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
It's not really the "in the words on one Croatian historian" since he is referencing primary sources. I'm far more interested in the primary sources than authors opinions. In fact, I wouldn't even use Horvat as a source in the normal discussion, but since we need to use secondary sources here on Wikipedia I have provided one. Horvat is here just providing the quote from the primary source along with the interpretation in a way to assure that the quote is understandable as is, that there's no other context (or hidden meaning) in which the quote should be understood, to assure that interpretations like yours, that "... it never happened" are not correct. We can't use historical sources in a such suggested way on Tesla's article. This source is only here to provide a context to other editors as is the quote where Tesla himself is saying that he was born in Croatia. The source which should be included in the article says: "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". This quote is from a source dealing with Tesla, the main complaint other editors had in the previous discussion (although it turned out those were boughs complaints since they were ignored when the editor has addressed them ). The first sentence is already in the article, but for some reason, several editors who have occupied this article, including you, have deliberately excluded the following sentence saying " At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina" , out from the article, personally attacked and tried to ban the editor who pointed that out and prevented other editors to join the discussion as the other editor pleaded. Then they come here on the discussion page and they asserting things like:"Tesla was not touched by Croatia in any significant manner". In my opinion it's along Wiki policies to take one sentence you like put it into the article, remove the very following one you don't like, and then come here to the talk page and provide interpretations contrary to the sentence you have neglected ,and then try to ban the user who points out such an obvious cherry picking. Is that normal to you? 89.164.199.174 (talk) 20:25, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
"At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina" , OK, delete then the existence of the province of Croatia in the articles of history of Croatia, and replace it with that claim, and then come back here. FkpCascais (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Again, you can like it or not, but again I ask. Is it normal to cherry pick one sentence out of the context of the following one and then try to ban everyone who points that out as now this other user is trying to ban me, in the same way he tried to ban the other user who pointed that out? You may not like how that author has formulated the sentence, but it's correct. There are a bunch of other sources that just say Croatia, but I point this one out just because it's a blatant example how some editors on this article are behaving. Even Tesla himself just said very clearly "I was born in Croatia". What's wrong to point out those sources as an additional context to the thing that is stated in the article. I perfectly agree with the sentence stated in the article. It's the first sentence from the source I'm putting forward here. What I'm not agreeing is to deliberately hide the very next sentence, make interpretations that go totally against that next sentence and personally attack users who point out that next sentence. It's not normal to me, and furthermore it's strongly against Wiki policies. If you want to compromise with me do as Bilserik suggested, leave the text of the article the same and put those 3 sources as references. Everyone is capable of interpreting Tesla's statement, the kings proclamation Horvat is mentioning, or this additional sentence for himself. 89.164.199.174 (talk) 21:47, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

To take one questionable quote and put it as a source is something that I do not think how Wikipedia works

What are you talking about? 89.164.156.6 (talk) 21:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla was SERBIAN and NOT Croatian

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --ChetvornoTALK 22:01, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

The indisputable fact is that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in what is now the sovereign independent country of Croatia and had Tesla been alive today he would have identified his nationality as Croatian and NOT Serbian. It seems as if alot of modern Serbians are just trying to claim Nikola Tesla as their own because he was a great inventor and scientist. But the fact still remains that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia hence the article should be changed to represent his true nationality as CROATIAN.174.108.182.14 (talk) 21:50, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Are you implying his ethnicity isn’t Serbian? He is without question, and ethnic Serbian. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 23:24, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Croatian, Austrian, Hungarian, but certainly not Serbian, however that can't be read in the article. 89.164.147.226 (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Yugoslavia?- MrX 🖋 20:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes. Yugoslavian. But some people want to push his ethnicity to the article contrary to the fact that he was not notable for his ethnicity. 141.138.53.215 (talk) 23:02, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
Yes, if Tesla had been born in Croatia he would be Croatian. Unfortunately, there was no country called Croatia when he was born. "Serbian" in the article refers to his ethnicity, not his nationality.- MrX 🖋 20:18, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
It is already established that he was born in the Croatia which was then a part of Austrian Empire. However, you don't like that so you keep it out of the article. The sources to the contrary are however visible in this thread. 141.138.53.215 (talk) 22:41, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

There is NO consensus, just stick to the indisputable fact that Nikola Tesla was born and raised in Croatia, hence he is CROATIAN NOT SERBIAN!! 174.108.182.14 (talk) 01:11, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

This case is hopeless. Look at what they did to the last guy who wanted to include the next consecutive sentence from the same source that was already in the article that they didn't like. This is their usual MO. They ignore but when someone is more persistent, they group together, personally attack and push their POV. The previous discussion is a clear case. They cherry picked and pushed one sentence from the source while at the same time they pushed so hard to hide the consecutive one that explains the first one and completely contradicts their interpretation they provided about the first one. So don't get annoyed and write in all caps. This is how Wikipedia works. Plus you don't look credible when you get emotional. 141.136.223.166 (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
To remind ourselves. The source says this : "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". This group of people pushed hard to get the first sentence into the article and at the same time pushed hard to hide the next consecutive sentence which explains what Croatia was at that time. 141.136.223.166 (talk) 20:24, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately, you are right. However, you still shouldn't sock. The editors here were very rude to me when I just tried to help. If leaving that sentence out of the article makes them happy , just let them have it. Bilseric (talk) 09:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

First of all, if Croatia would have been independent country in 19th Century, it would not include Military Krajina , the part of A-Hu Empire where Tesla was born and most of the Serbs lived for more than 500 years that part was given to Croatia in Yugoslav era, so no Tesla is not or would not have been Croatian, second and most important ,if you really think that Tesla is not a Serbian (or Serb eventhough in our language is always only SRBIN ) then why did the Croats destroyed his House 2 times (once in 1941. and once in 1991.) and killed 11 members of his family,so again he is a Serbian, your hipocricy knows no boundaries

Nikola Tesla was a Croatian! Stop changing the article to say he was so-called “Serbian”! 2600:8801:2e00:1c62:8dc0:fd36:7773:348a

Nobody is changing anything, stop writing lies, this is not a trolling section like your croatian newspapers, here are only facts and the fact is that he was Serbian and you Croats have nothing to do with him

Main article tells the only fact and true story, Tesla was a Serbian , Croats killed his family during the ww2 , destroyed his house in 1941. and 1991. - therefore clearly shoved their opinion about him , so this falsification of history is not going to change anything , TESLA WAS A SERBIAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 10:10, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

You have no sources to any of your claims. I put a lot of time to find a source that says that Military Frontier was a part of Croatia at the time Tesla was born. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.136.230.134 (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

And Croatia was part of Austro -Hungary and in A-Hu empire lived lots of nations including Serbs, which most of them lived in Military Krajina which was part of A-H empire not Croatia Just read the main article about Nikola Tesla and everything is gonna be clear ,even to you . You want sources ,go visit the graves in Smiljan where all of Tesla cousins lie killed by Croats and all of the graves are written in cirilic letter , is it not enough evidence for you ? You want some more ? Military Frontier was the border frontier where most of the people who lived there were Serbs , my ancestors not yours, there is enough sources on that subject even in Wikipedia , Do you want some more ? Here is the link that describes how many Serbs were killed during the WW2 in Smiljan by Croats and how many of them were Tesla"s relatives : http://www.politika.rs/sr/clanak/409594/Grobnica-gde-su-ustase-ubile-11-rodaka-Nikole-Tesle , I am gusseing you can read Serbo -Croatian , all those facts are well known ,there is a lot of serious Scientists that have allready written a lot of studies and did researches on this subject and then someone like you thinks that can change the facts by trolling and rewriting the history , sorry it is not going to happen, you should start accepting the fact that other nations lived in this territory that is now called Croatia , Serbs more than 500 years eventhough you"re trying your best to erase that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 20:11, 15 August 2019 (UTC) You have double standards. Tesla was born in Austrian Empire. Austria-Hungary was formed 11 years after his birth. His ethnicity is Serbian. His place of birth is today in Croatia, but that is not make him Croatian the same way Ban Jelačić is not Serb just because he was born in place located today in Serbia. We should always use same ethnic standard and not change it based on present interests.

This is all unrelevant and unsourced. Tesla's birthplace is Military Frontier, which was a part of Croatia at that time (as the source says Croatia,Slavonia and MF constitute the same "land"). Graves, ancestors, your feelings are unrelevant for Wikipeidia. As for his ethnicity, there are sources for that but in my opinon none of them is based on primary sources, however those are good enough for Wikipedia, but note that there are other sources which claim otherwise whichs are of no less significance since no is based on primary sources. 89.164.202.76 (talk) 23:28, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

The only thing that is unsourced and unrelevant is your trolling ,Military Krajina was part of Austrian Empire ,not Croatia that in that time did not existed, and if it would existed it would not been in today"s borders, those borders were made in Tito Yugoslavia, those are all well known facts ,Graves and ancestors are extremly relevant especially for wikipedia, that is why your trolling can not pass in main article because it is simply not true ,I allready gave you one source that proves what the Croats did to Tesla family ,I can give you way more, but the point is that you trying to manipulate the truth and rewrite the history which is very hypocritical and you do that not because of Nikola Tesla, you do that to push nationalistic ideas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 03:27, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not aware of what is going on here, but from what I see just by overlooking, it is the same old story over and over again. So, time to repeat some history:
A- Tesla was born in Austrian empire.
B- Tesla was born in the Military Frontier, a special province within the empire created along the border with Ottoman empire to serve as defense against Ottomans. It was formed in 1553, Tesla was born in 1856, so it was not something "new" but rather a well established province with 3 centuries of existance by time Tesla came into life.
C- Military Frontier was multi-ethnic province ruled directly by Austria. Its ethnic composition was (probably intentionally) done in a way that neither Serbs, or Croats, or anyone else, would be majority.
D- Militaru Frontier was divided into sections, named geographically, corresponding to the nearest other province. The names of the sections missleadingly are nowadays being interpreted as if those provinces had some power over them, but did not. Tesla was born in the so called Croatian Military Frontier section, however, the province of Croatia-Slavonia had no authority over it. Right the opposite, Croatian parliamentarians spent much of their time fighting to convince the crown to give them some powers over the CMF.
E- During Military Frontier entire existance, Croatia, which was a neighbouring province, with its own borders and provincial powers which excluded the Military Frontier.
F- The multi-ethnic structure of the Military frontier and the fact that demographics indicated near half population as Serbian, made Tesla feel autochtone and identify with his birthplace. His father was a Christian Orthodox priest, and his mother was daughter of a Christian Orthodox priest, Orthodoxy made a vital role in being the center of Serbian communities within Austrian empire. There are no, neither there have ever been, Orthodox Croats. Both Serbs and Croats are South Slavs, what made the difference between them was clearly the religion, so obviously the religious leaders were the maximal exponents of their nationalities. As today, you can see Arab Israelies, but an Arab rabi? Within the Military Frontier, both nationalities had their "motherlands" bordering the MF, Serbs in the South with first Ottoman occupied Principality of Serbia, while Croats had Habsbirg occupied Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg) and later Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. Both obviously desired unification each with its correspondent motherland.
G- But in meantime, and in reality, none of them had any authority over MF which was under tight Austrian control. From several sources we can see that despite vast South Slavic majority, in MF German was the official language and schools and highschools were lectured in German. All high ranks were held by Austrians.
H- Tesla was born and studied in Military Frontier. By the time he moved to Graz in 1875, he never got to live, study, or do anything in Croatia proper, it was all in Military Frontier. He even got the scholarship from the Miltary Frontier (that important MF was it even atributed scholarships).
I- So, Tesla was NOT born in Croatia (Croatia was a neighbouring province which held no control over Smiljan in the Military Frontier), neither lived or studied at any point in Croatia.
J- In Graz, Tesla started a "Serbian Cultural Club".
K- Tesla never lost his identification with the multiethnic Military Frontier he grew up at, and much later when it all became Kingdom of Yugoslavia, he clearly keeps this awareness of multiethnicity, now with Yugoslavia as sort of a "liberated" way, but never adbicates from his Serbian identification.
L- The so much cited "Serbian origin and Croatian homeland" being used as prove of his Croatianess is such a dishonest missuse as ignores all the rest written and the context itself. He wrote it on the occassion of the assassination of Alexander I of Yugoslavia who was the king of Yugoslavia from the Karadjordjevic royal dinasty which ruled Kingdom of Serbia and consequently after WWI continued ruling the then renamed Kingdom og Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (renamed Yugoslavia in 1929) and who was allways seen as simobol of Serbian dominance over Yugoslavia, thus disliked by vast majority of Croats, and eventually assassinated by Croatian terrorist organisation. Tesla was a major supporter of the royal family and pleased a Serbian royal family ruled the country, he wrote that text full of sadness and that citation taken from his text was supposed to mean that he was of Serbian origin despite by then his birthplace having become part of Croatian within Yugoslav internal division, and how there was people like him "from Croatia" that admired the king. It was supposed to represent unity and to deescalate the general feeling Croats either supported the assassination of the king. He actually highçight his Serbian identification with the intention of wanting to let know that there are people that considered that Croatia within Yugoslavia as homeland and were not all against the king, but rather in favor.
M- So this claims of Tesla having been born in Croatia are wrong, neither he was born, or raised, or studied ever in Croatia (unfortunatelly for these editors) Tesla was born and spent all his time while there within the Military Frontier, which was well different than the back then neighbouring Croatia, since in Croatia Austrians and Hungarians did allowed some local powers, while at Military Frontier didn´t allowed any Croatian authority, not even in the section called Croatian Military Frontier, which again, the name of the section "Croatian" is merelly geographical, not a possessive adjective as many so much want to make it look like.
N- The only argument is that Smiljan, Tesla birthplace, later became part of Croatia, but even the destruction of his house, church and other property by Croatian troops during their fight for independence demonstrates how real the awareness is that Tesla is the (unwanted) proeminent member of the (once) large Serbian minority in what became Croatia. Now, just because he is famous wanting to turn things up-side down is really cheating.
O- Any of these continuos attempts, as far as I saw, are all ased in the denial of at least few of my points, and I can source each and every word of mine. FkpCascais (talk) 08:07, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
The amount of effort to cleanse any relation to Croatia or Croatians from Tesla’s identity is scarily reminiscent of another era. Wow. Firstly , the fact of the matter is that Tesla was a ethnic Serbian Scientists of Croatian nationality. Sorry, but it seems it is you trying to give a new meaning to Tesla’s quote of “I am equally proud of my Serbian heritage and Croatian homeland” It doesn't matter what the even was he still acknowledges Croatia as his place of origin. Where you in his head at the time of him writing that? He literally acknowledged where he was from as being “Croatian homeland”. Unlike many on here he wasn’t some Croat orb ultranationalist. He held not contempt for Croats. He claimed his ethnicity to be Serbian and nationality or country to be Croatian. Trying to twist his words is pathetic and sad, almost as much as those on here denying his Serbian ethnicity. Enough with the WWII era Orthodox = Serb and Catholic = Croat. That is such nonsense. Before such nonsense there were many Croats and Serbs of either sect. Only later would people change their identity based on religion, as sad as that was and is still. If only Croats and Serbs could have their hatred converted into electricity, it could power the world for centuries. A loosely worded quote of Tesla’s. He was very much for pan Slavinism. But again it seems you don’t give a toss about how Tesla identified himself. You seem to think that Serbs born in Croatia can’t possible have a Croatian nationality. Come back when you figure out the difference between ethnicity and nationality. Tesla was a ethnic Serb born in Croatia. I know you absolutely despise the word “Croatia” and the various forms it takes but too bad. :) 74.101.190.2 (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Just one little problem here, Croatia did not existed as a independent country back then. so he could not had a croatian nationality, He was a Serbian born in Austrian Empire. TO connect him with Croatia is just wrong since back then where he was born was Military Krajina.

THANK YOU !!!! Finally has someone explained it ,I would just like to add by letter N that the statue of Nikola Tesla in Gospic was destroyed too during the 1991. period which is still not replaced with the new one — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 14:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

He was born here, entire family is born in Triune Kingdom. It is an injustice. There is not enough evidence that he was Serbian just because he was Orthodox. Bye--Uspjeh je ključ života (talk) 16:49, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Born in ethnic Serb family, both of his parents were Serbs originally from Western Serbia , father orthodox priest , his SLAVA is Djurdjevdan ... what more evidence someone needs , btw if you do not know what Slava is here is an article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.209.196.189 (talk) 16:55, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I spent a lot of time finding a source that says that MF was a part of Croatia in the time Tesla was born. Sorry, but you can't ignore it just because you don't like it. The fact that MF was under special military administration does not change the fact that it formed a single land with Croatia and Slavonia. The fact that Tesla himself acknowledged when he said "I was born in Croatia.". 2A01:C22:6E36:3500:648B:DCD0:68B0:3C7F (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, comming from a person who just comment back spoke about Triune Kingdom as if it was reality, everything can be expected. FkpCascais (talk) 23:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
No, but seriously, this one really interests me: how would you explain that the so Croatian, Croat, pure nobility, Tesla, after receving his Militärgrenze scholarship to continue his studies in Graz, arrives there and creates and runs a... Serbian Cultural Club? Because he created it, he could have made it Croatian Cultural Club, right? If he was so Croatian as you claim. So, was it like his beggining as agent for the Croatian intelligentsia? A way to infiltrate him into Serbian intellectual circles, lets make him willingly create and run a Serbian Cultural Club, so he fools everyone he is a Serb. But wait, now I get it, this goes way deeper. A source of yours said Tesla families from both sides were noble Croatian families, so he must have followed the tradition then, because then obviously his father and grand-father, Orthodox priests, must have been infiltrators too! They were all noble Croatians just claimed to be Serbs because they were infiltrated while working for Croatian FBI. Humor aside, really, how can you not stop claiming Tesla is something else than Serbian when at his first longer stay away "abroad" he creates and runs a Serbian Cultural Club? Because, I am interested, how many non-Serbs must have ever been that just woke up one day borred and said "Well, today I am finally creating my Serbian Cultural Club!" I think there was a time in Puerto Rico it became fashion. Puerto Ricans opened Serbian clubs at every corner. And not a single Serb was seen! All Croats and few other nobles from the Triune Kingdom! Right? FkpCascais (talk) 00:55, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
You are rambling as usual. What is important are sources and anyone who's interested beond this ramble can see them. Here are they again: [6] 2A01:C22:7A4D:F700:B838:E602:AE70:914B (talk) 06:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Oh come on, please, just out of record, how do you explain he created and runed a Serbian Cultural Club if he was so Croatian? Please, you must have some explanation, or you just choose to ignore it? FkpCascais (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
So if I run a Greek culture club in Italy, place of birth, my nationality becomes Greek? Do they mail me a Greek passport upon starting the club? Again, learn the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality. There wouldn’t be a Serbs of Croatia wiki if there was not different between the two. Or are those people not real ethnic Serbs in your eyes? Jesus, and they let you edit Balkan articles??? Your bias is beyond measure. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2019 (UTC)


The link to your source is proved wrong by all historians and all following historian events following. No, there was no Triune Kingdom, only you think so. That is why no one even bothered to answer you, because youalready posted that same source and arguments tons of times and failed every single time. ... I am also out becuse consensus has been reached long ago and you have nothing new to challenge it, so all I am interested is from personal curiosity how a mind like yours explains Tesla creating a Serbian Cultural Club and not Croatia, if he was so Croatian. I am really interested if you could explain this to me. FkpCascais (talk) 21:36, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
Because he was a Serb by ethnicity. I have no problems with his ethnicity, you are the one having problems admitting he was born in Croatia. If there was no Triune Kingdom, how come it has issued a passport to Tesla? Hm, that will be a hard one to explain...2A01:C22:7644:7100:98DA:B36D:4004:33D1 (talk) 21:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Block evasion by Asdisis

User:Asdisis was blocked indefinitely five years ago for sockpuppetry and for his intractable disruption regarding Tesla's ethnicity and nationality. Since then, Asdisis has continued his edit war using IPs from Croatia. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Asdisis/Archive.

All the recent Croatian IP edits to this talk page are very likely block evasion by Asdisis, who has been blocked repeatedly at similar Croatian IP addresses for saying the same things. Any comments made by Croatian IPs in this range should be ignored. Please see the two lists of IPs below. Binksternet (talk) 19:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Partial list of Croatian IPs blocked because of Asdisis evading his block
List of Croatian IPs that have edited here recently in the same style as Asdisis
@Binksternet: I've filed an SPI at the proper place with all the editors who also made very similar comments on this TP previously (not just part of this RfC, I looked through the page history and flagged down any recent suspicious account). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:13, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Does that mean that the comments of those IPs should not be striked per WP:SOCKSTRIKE, but only this recommendation to ignore remains? --WEBDuB (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
@WEBDuB: there is no "recommendation". Leave it to the clerks to decide whether there is any basis to RandomCanadian's accusations. Notrium (talk) 22:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
@Binksternet: please withdraw your accusations now that the case has been closed. Notrium (talk) 23:03, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
No. My "accusations" are instead a documentation of a pattern of abuse by Asdisis. The pattern is continuing, and should be seen clearly by all who work on this topic.
I did not file the recent sockpuppet case which was unfounded to begin with and rightly closed within a short time. I did not accuse you or Bilseric or the others of socking. I am only noting that Croatian IPs editing on this page and only this page are very, very likely to be Asdisis evading his block. Binksternet (talk) 23:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
@Binksternet: Thanks. I kind of suspected that some of the editors might be Asdisis because of some things they said. --ChetvornoTALK 00:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@Binksternet: To me it seems it is hugely inappropriate to just posit an assemblage of users as socks, without formally proposing an investigation. Is an IP user worth less than a registered user? Notrium (talk) 09:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I put together a case page about Asdisis at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Asdisis. Binksternet (talk) 22:29, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2019

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--ChetvornoTALK 21:05, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

12.43.115.250 (talk) 15:20, 25 June 2019 (UTC) Just a simple question to the editors. If I'm born and raised in Croatia and I am Orthodox. Is that means that I am Serbian? So, Nikola Tesla was born during the Austro-Hungarian regime, after that we had The State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs and after that Yugoslavia with already predefined frontiers. Smiljan (where Nikola Tesla was born) was never under the Serbia even for one minute during the whole history. Knowing that, Nikola Tesla could never be Serbian. If the authors refers to his statement "I'm proud of my Serbian roots" well, arn't we all proud of our roots.

 Not done - This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". Will respond on the requester's talk page.- MrX 🖋 15:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
The editors that did this are referring to his ethnicity, although I'm not sure why his ethnicity is significant enough to put emphasis so much in the article, while not mentioning his nationality at all, or hiding the fact that he was born in Croatian part of Austrian Empire. 89.164.156.6 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Because he was born in Military Krajina, part of the Austrian Empire,not in Croatia that was not a independent country back then but also a part of the Empire

Military Krajina was a part of Croatia for all period of Medieval age and was reunited once again with Croatia in 1881. So, that part was Croatia, even in early youth of Nikola Tesla. Walter9 (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes in 1881. Not before that

A source referring that Military Frontier is a part of Croatia at the time Tesla was born is posted a long time ago. A group of editors are ignoring the source and claiming the opposite here for a number of years. To me personally, the most important source is Tesla's own statement that he was born in Croatia. 89.164.150.103 (talk) 16:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Only to you ,you should read some of neutral historians who actually did studies on that subject (M.Valentic-croatian historian) and are describing in details about that period , Military Krajina was not part of Croatia until 1881. - I think that editors here are not the problem,as for Tesla it is enough what he said about that subject at end of his life

This is not a matter of authors opinion as there's a king proclamation defining MF status in 1850. I don't need to read author's opinions, I'm capable of constituting my own opinion based on primary sources. That's why the most important source to me is Tesla's own statement that he was born in Croatia. The source I'm referring to directly quotes the king's proclamation and if you have any other source referring to the same proclamation I would be willing to read it. I'm not familiar with any other of Tesla's statements about his birthplace apart from the one where he directly says that he was born in Croatia. If you have any please post it. 89.164.229.103 (talk) 21:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Tesla was a Serb born in Military Krajina, Military Krajina was not part of Croatia until 1881. and was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire,my suggestion for you is that you read the books that are written on the last 2 pages of this Thesis (https://repozitorij.unizg.hr/islandora/object/hrstud:1137/preview)

MF was a part of Croatia at least from 1850, per provided sources. In 1881, the separate military administration was abolished. 141.136.240.66 (talk) 21:35, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I gave you enough sources that explain otherwise — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

No, you haven't. Nor you understand that you are not able to do it. The status of MF was defined in 1850 and it is not subjected to opinions. The same way as definitions written in a constitution can not be unconstitutional. You may like it or not, but that's the definition. Plus, Tesla himself said that he was born in Croatia. If you don't believe some de-jure definitions maybe you believe Tesla himself was smart enough to know where he was born. 89.164.151.223 (talk) 21:29, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

So the Thesis on 56 pages and around 20 books that are researching the matter are not evidence but your 4 word qoutes are ,BRAVO sir,You can repeat it as much as you want and still wont make it the truth,obviously you are pushing your opinion on the matter, not a fact and you don"t understand that your opinion will not change the world history ,Tesla was born in Military Krajina, Military Krajina was not part of Croatia until 1881. Military Krajina had it"s on parlament and it was more turned towards Austria,even after the joining with Croatia in 1881. there was a difference in culture and sistem between 2 regions - everything is written here, you do not have to read it,someone else will — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 05:13, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

You have no sources which say otherwise. You are just misinterpreting the sources you have. The separate administration (military administration) and representation (separate parliament) does not mean that MF was a separate entity from Croatia as the source I posted clearly says "same land with separate administration and representation". 89.164.238.22 (talk) 20:11, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Actually my sources are saying just that the Military Krajina was separate region under direct control of Austria and there is actuall description that even King was against unification for a long time, off course no one expects that you read that ,because it is obvious that you do not have a capacity to understand the whole process , but that is your problem, still it is a shame that you made a mockery of this page by constant enforcing and not discussing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 11:55, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

You are just misinterpreting them in the way i explained earlier. 89.164.250.10 (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Is it possible that this sockmaster doesn´t give up after so many years? FkpCascais (talk) 03:04, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm allowed to post sources and draw attention to them. Your problem is that you don't have any sources so you have to make interpretations like the one that Tesla lied when he said that he was born in Croatia. At least admit that you are not objective and I would understand, but you persist on your objectiveness and you don't recognize Tesla's own statement that he was born in Croatia nor the kings official proclamation that MF is a part of Croatia. I wouldn't bother you too much if I didn't put such strong sources upfront. I'm sorry if those sources don't go along your interpretations, but sometimes things are what they are, whether you like them or not. 141.136.204.34 (talk) 19:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Hahhaaa strong sources , repetition of your own interpretetations is not a source , guess Einstein was right after all and btw there is a reason why Tesla asked that the song "tamo daleko" is to be singed on his funerale, you should check on that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 19:46, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

No. I provided 2 quotes without interpretations. Tesla's own statement "I was born in Croatia", and a quote from Horvat ". "After many pleas from Jelecic, in 1850 the King's proclamation, which was signed by all 8 Austrian ministers, was finally announced...For Military Frontier, the King decided that it will remain within its present territory. However, it will with, Croatia and Slavonia, constitute a single land with disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation." ". However you and others here are constantly misinterpreting "disaggregated provincial and military administration, and representation" as a proof of how MF was something separate from Croatia, which is totally against the source I provided. I should think Tesla was smart enough to know where he was born, so I would say, yeah, pretty strong sources. 89.164.193.70 (talk) 20:14, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

And yet non of historians agrees with you, no one who edited Nikola Tesla page agrees with you,croatian politicians from that age do not agree with you, not even a croatian university agrees with you , I understand what are you trying to do here ,but this is not a "courious case of croatian wikipedia" so that you can take one qoute and change the whole process and struggle of unification that lasted over 20 years in one letter ,nothing in life is that simple, there was a question of taxation, railroads, control of a border, the fact that even Croatia had it"s on issues with Hungary and problem that they nedeed to pay half of their taxes to Hungary, then the problem of changing the whole sistem in Austro Hungary - "Godine 1860. Listopadskom diplomom je ukinut tzv. neoapsolutizam i prihvaćeno svojevrsno kompromisno rješenje te uvedeno federalističko uređenje države. No, to nije dugo trajalo pa je već sljedeće godine, točnije 26. veljače 1861. donesen Veljački patent koji je u državu uveo ustavni njemački centralizam. S ukidanjem neoapsolutizma ponovno je oživio politički život i u Hrvatskoj. Od 1861. godine ponovno djeluju političke stranke, kao primjerice Narodna stranka na čelu s Josipom Jurajem Strossmayerom, Franjom Račkim, Ivanom Mažuranićem i drugim istaknutim predstavnicima čiji je glavni cilj bio teritorijalno ujedinjenje hrvatskih zemalja." - I mean why to put so much effort to start a political party with the main goal of unification if that according to you allready happened (and please do not write again de jure thing because it was obvious blockade from Vienna and the King and with god reason) etc. As for Tesla, he was smart ,very smart to know that he was born in MF ,that his upring was way different then in rest of A-U empire (including Croatia) which is very well described in this Thesis and also by Rothenberg who said : ""For over 350 years, from 1522 to 1881. the Habsburgs maintained a military zone, Militärgrenze, Konfin, or Vojna Krajina along the southern border of Croatia. The original purpose of this organisation had been a defensive screen against Turkish incursions,but already in the middle of the 18th century an Austrian general observed that it was not only a rampart against the Turks, but also a restraint upon the rebellious tendencies of the Hungarian nobility. On this border the Habsburg military bureacraucy became a supreme authority and the influence of the Hungarian-Croatian crown was virtually eliminated ." - There was a huge struggle and effort of croatian politicians to achieve that goal of unification and you underestimate that

But hey now you will write the same thing like the previous 50 times - that you have strong sources, that Tesla said "I was born in Croatia" that the King wrote a proclamation in 1856. that gives Croatia de jure unification with MF eventhough that would meant a lots of rights and benefits (or at least some like administrative control or a control of finances) because it would be legally bounding because de jure means that government is the legal, legitimate government of a state and is so recognized by other states and yet it is obvious that it was not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 21:49, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

No one has to agree with me as I'm only pointing out sources. I shouldn't be in focus, but the sources should. I don't need to comment other editors. Everyone is free to see how they behaved in the last discussion. Again you are trying to put emphasis to "separate administration and representation" while neglecting "single land". The source I posted is very clear on the matter "single land with separate administration and representation". I don't see how your interpretation have any relevance here. BDW, apart from this historical source and Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia, the editor Bilserik posted a Tesla's biography saying this: ""At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina."". How don't you see that I'm pointing out direct quotes from sources saying things like "At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina.", while you are talking about railroads, goals of some political parties, etc...I put forward 3 direct quotes and I don't need to tell anyone how to interpret them. You on the other hand are posting some sources than saying "why to put so much effort...", "why Tesla asked that the song...". Yes I'm sure that your answers to those why question are more relevant then what my sources are saying. 89.164.244.36 (talk) 22:27, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

And I just gave you a direct quote from Rothenberg that says diferent, even in your source it says "area was SOMETIMES referred as Krajina" (when was that then, which area etc.) and BTW you are not the only person who provides sources,everybody who had discussion with you provided a source ,the page was written based on sources ,even I provided some -so from your side it is not fair to write it But you proved my point this is no discussion ,just repetition and I think that Mirko Valentic can say a little bit more on this subject , way more — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 23:23, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Repeat the quote without your interpretations. Second. We can discuss why the author said "sometimes" , but that's irrelevant to the point made by that source which clearly says that Tesla was born in Croatia and then gives further explanation that the area where tesla was born was sometimes called Kraina. If I would have to make an interpretation , I would say that the author said "sometimes" probably because people were just calling that area simply Croatia as MF was a part of Croatia. And by "people" I mean most significantly Tesla himself who said "I was born in Croatia". Not that he was born in MF or Kraina. I'm not at all unsatisfied with what the article says, but I see that the same people who wrote the article are interpreting their own sentence that they put in the article in a way which contradicts sources. You can see them clearly stating things like "Tesla was not touched by Croatia in any significant manner". Being born in Croatia is pretty significant. 89.164.150.29 (talk) 11:57, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Being a Serb then is even more significant, and since that was a part of Krajina and there was a cultural difference in Krajina way of life that was even more significant, but you are right he was touched by Croatia when they killed 11 members of his family during the independent part of Croatian history (1941-1945) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 12:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't recall any source stating "what is more important". 89.164.172.4 (talk) 19:00, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
I firmly belive that the lead is fine as it is. As for the IP who claims that he is a Croatian Orthodox Christian (Ustashe ideology in the house), please do not pay much attention to that editor, because we have a case of trolling, special war, spinning and yet another wannabe creative way to poison the well. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 23:59, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Ustashe editors can go crawl back into their bigoted hole. However why do you have no issue with the other IP stating “ but you are right he was touched by Croatia when they killed 11 members of his family during the independent part of Croatian history (1941-1945)” With the intent of insulting the Croatian ethnic group? I lost count of how many times I see bigots bring up the Ustashe or that Croats are “Catholic Serbs” (Chetniks have arrived) as if that is relevant to figuring out Tesla’s nationality. You seem silent on that trolling or attacks. People see that as lacking neutrality and siding with nationalist editors. This would be like bringing up Chetnik atrocities as a counter for why a figure must be Croatian. The behavior on this talk page makes me embarrassed to be Balkan. insulting either Croats or Serbs is unprofessional and unproductive. Tesla was an ethnic Serbs. Simple.74.101.190.2 (talk) 01:06, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Asdisis, you know that Tesla saying he was born in Croatia has no weight regarding his actual birthplace, right? I was born in Belgrade in late 1970s and I allways say I was born in Serbia, simply because Belgrade is nowadays capital of Serbia and ignoring that back then it was capital of Yugoslavia and could have been part of Bosnia internally, it would not matter. I say I was born in Serbia because nowadays my birthplace is there and not saying anything about what was back then when I was born. Same way Tesla could had very well said that in same way, refering to where his birthplace was at time of his statement and not at time of his birth. Since that is what commonly people do, refer to contemporary situation rather than birthtime geopolitical details, it makes Tesla statement not extraordinary or significant regarding the situation of his birthplace at time of his birth. So, that is why this claim apparently so positive to your pretention, ends up having no significance at all after taking a good look.
Furthermore, we should take a look at the context of his statement. He said that in the text he wrote for New York Times on October 19, 1934, titled Tribute to King Alexander. It´s absolutelly stricking to see Croatian nationalists using this quote to back up their claims of pretentions over Tesla, while ignoring the context and content of the text itself, which is, at least, so pro-Serbian and not favorable at all to any pro-Croatian claims. From the start, we should understand that a tribute to the Yugoslav monarchy is by itself a pro-Serbian position, opposed mainly by Croats. One just needs a minute to read the text to confirm its extraordinary pro-Serbian position. Kingdom of Yugoslavia was created in 1918 when Kingdom of Serbia got rights of territorial expansion after being an allied and winner of the war. Kingdom of Serbia got the rights to expand and unite with Kingdom of Montenegro and territories under Habsburg monarchy which were inhabited by Serbs and other South Slav brothers. The Kingdom is renamed to Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, turned into Yugoslavia in 1929, because Croatian and Slovenian territories were added as well into it. However, while in Slovenia there was some clearly favorable view of this option, in Croatia (specifically, ammong Croats) the stance was not that clear at all, and the problem was rather demarcation of the frontier between Serbs and Croats (which this way stayed "postponed") rather then Croatian favorable view about being subjects of Serbian monarchy. From the very begining, its Serbs which hold a pro-monarchic view in which understanding of the new country is hardly distinguished between being really a new country or just a version of expanded Serbia, while it is mostly Croats that hold anti-monarchic views and oppose any initiatives of centralism in that state. Thus, knowing that Alexander I of Yugoslavia assassination was executed by a Croatian nationalistic group, and then writting a tribute to him knowing he was criticized and opposed mostly by Croats, makes the text by itself so pro-Serbian. He makes not only praises to the king and Serbs in general, but furthermore, by emphasizing that he was born in Croatia makes him actually hold a deeper pro-Serbian view of reminding that there is people from what was then atributed as "Croatia" that shared favorable views of the monarchy and the overall situation, very different from the majority of Croatian public. Its basically a reminder that there was territory considered Croatian then where people were favorable of the monarchy and the union with Serbia, a message hard to ignore by the Croatian nationalists using the quote but willing to do it regardessly. So, if you care to actually read the content and context of the quote, its hard to see how you can consider it favorable to your claims at all. Him saying "I was born in Croatia" and right afterwords saying "The Croatians and Slovenes were never in a position to fight for their independence. It was the Serbians who fought the battles for freedom and the price of liberty was paid in Serbian blood. All true Croatians and Slovenes remember that gratefully." it is saying that if it was not for them, Krajina Serbs, and the rest of Serbs, Croatia would have not been free. How about each time you come with this same requests we rather consider adding his real message entirelly instead, would you agree? FkpCascais (talk) 02:18, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
You keep editing the page I don’t have a chance to respond, hahaha. :::::: :::::: What is asdisis? AnywayS, I never brought up the quote “I was born in Croatia” but you acknowledge he did say that. That’s kinda shooting yourself in the foot. His views of Serbs being saviors of Croats and Slovenians isn’t new. He thinks Croats and Slovenians needed saving from Austria, funny and historically inaccurate as it is. I’ve seen him say that before. He is entitled to his views. I agree that Tesla claiming Croatia as his home or birthplace doesn’t change what state he was born in. I could claim Russia is my homeland but that would only exist in my head. I was really trying to argue against your claim that there is some special nuance to his quote even though I don’t see it being there. To him, that military frontier was Croatian to him, his Croatian homeland. And he was incredibly proud of his Serbian heritage. His words mean the same regardless of the context. He was fond of the Southern Slavs all together and felt strongly about a united Yugoslavia. So it’s still makes sense for even a nationalist to parrot that quote for he did feel that was his homeland. Honestly my argument had nothing to do with the topic on this thread as His nationality is Austrian as all the Kingdoms were part of the empire. And Tesla’s ethnicity was Serbian. For the most part we agree I think?
What do you mean “each time” and “same requests”? This is the first time I spoke to you on this page.....74.101.190.2 (talk) 03:29, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia is a primary source and of course that solely it cannot be used as a state of fact. It only represents Tesla's opinion that Croatia is his homeland. I would argue that Tesla was smart enough to know where he was born and that this is the strongest source, however we can't use it as a state of fact so for that purpose I have provided 2 secondary sources stating "At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina" and Horvat which directly refers to the kings proclamation that MF and Croatia form a single land. If you want to have stated that Tesla was born in MF in the article, stop coming here to the talk page and write things that MF wasn't a part of Croatia at that time which in turn was a part of Austrian Empire. We can discuss whether we need to go into such details in the article or just say that he was born in Austrian Empire, but what we cannot do it to write that he was born in Austrian Empire and provide a biased interpretation how that sentence negates that the part of Austrian Empire where Tesla was born was Croatian. 89.164.172.4 (talk) 18:16, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
The only one who is biased here is you because you think that you can change historical facts with few qoutes. I agree with FkpCascais when he writes that instead of taking qoutes from a source, why not giving a full source or quote a full source, taking something out of context is very unprofessional and leads someone to think in direction you think is right (that is propaganda) and that is why this discussion leads nowhere, you cannot possibly think that a qoute from Horvat who was more a politician than a historian and had his own reasons to write something like this is more valuable source then the whole process of unification that lasted over 20 years ,that is just ridiculous . And qiuck response to a IP address 74.101.190.2 I am not a Chetnik nor a supporter of ideology nor did I ever wrote that Croats are "catholic Serbs", I was actually born and raised and studied in Croatia, it is just funny how you got offended by the fact that actually happened in Tesla"s life but in the same time you have no problem with this person who is making a mockery from this page with constant trolling and in a lack of real argument repeating the same qoutes that are tooked out of context, with the statement that I wrote I just gave you a taste of your medicine because I know that you are all reading this and with doing nothing you are actually quietly supporting him — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 07:05, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Of course I have not provided any quote out of its context. I also provided links to full sources. 89.164.172.4 (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
"it is just funny how you got offended by the fact that actually happened in Tesla"s life but in the same time you have no problem with this person who is making a mockery from this page with constant trolling and in a lack of real argument repeating the same qoutes that are tooked out of context, with the statement that I wrote I just gave you a taste of your medicine because I know that you are all reading this and with doing nothing you are actually quietly supporting him" I just recently came to this page and see Ustashe constantly brought up. You didn't just bring up an event that happened in Tesla's life, nice try. You actively tried to argue that Croats are not allowed to claim Tesla was born in Croatia because Ustase killed his family. As if to imply Croats as a whole are all Ustase and complicite. Again, nice try. I did not read this entire page, but seeing insults thrown towards other ethnic groups is inexcusable. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the other editor who replied to you. What taste of medicine did you give me? Where did I insult Serbs? You are a troll as well and you complain of others trolling. Do you really think you are contributing in a positive way? I literally said before that any Ustashe sympathizers can "go crawl back in their holes". Perhaps you were offended by my comment as it tapped into your conscious. I literally said I agree with FkpCascais that Tesla's birthplace is Autria. But you have no problem with the chauvinistic way FkpCascais talks about Croatia and Croats. You seem fine with that. I never called you specifically a Chetnik and I don't care if you were born or raised in Croatia. I base my judgement on the character of the individual in what the write or say. Not their ethnicity (which you left out) or nationality or where they are from. Unlike some others on here. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 23:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Oh Please spare me your hipocricy, you think that by writing here an milions of eseys and telling everybody here that they are chauvinists and at the same time getting offended by the historical facts that actually happenned in Tesla"s life and also taking a qoutes from Tesla and interpretate them the way you want to is unbelievably hipocritical, "You just recently came on this page and you see Ustashe constantly brought up" - you don"t see any Chetniks brought up too, funny because you are the one who is bringing them up , that event happened in Tesla"s life and I did not tried to argue anything I was pointing up the fact that the history is suppossed to be looked as a whole ,not just statements of Tesla which we can see that were different in his life, I could have easily brought up the fact that his house was blown away in 1991. and then what,were that Ustashe too who did that, am I a Chetnik again because I brought it up? - The taste of your own medicine that I gave was the fact that you were allowing the Troll here who is making a mockery of this page by constantly repeating the same qoutes without any further argument eventhough every Editor here provided a multiple sources that are disagreing with him but he keeps doing the same thing - you started to discuss not because of him or because you are interested in historical facts, you started to discuss just because I dared to touch in "forbidden area", after that you started ranting about Croatian history (that has nothing to do with this subject) in a worst kind of way - by defending it (why?) and finding excuses of something that either happenned or not and again just because you got offended because FkpCascais wrote that "Serbs are warriors" and "Croats are not" . Another hipocricy from you is that you are caling me a Troll eventhough I actually gave a source on this subject and tried to give an explenation regarding the history on this subject . Since you do not have a capacity to understand some things but you are eager to accuse I am going to explain bluntly so that even you have a clear picture about my points of views : The reason that I did not respond to Fkpcascais regarding the Serbo-Croat history is because i think it does not belong to this subject ,that is why I did not react and I never wrote anything about it, my personal opinion is that the facts are only thing that matter and if something happenned there is a usually a reason why it happenned, I do not believe that a "warrior history" is necessary a better or worse one and if someone had more battles in their history it does not mean that they are better or worse (Switzerland had no war in last 300 years and it does not mean that their history is boring or that the people are invalids) so that is why I do not have a urge to give a comment on this matter, second since you are so eager to know my ethnicity ,I am not a Serb or Croat, but I was born and lived in Croatia for a long time and I am aware of the situation that is why I am going to always believe neutral historians like Valentic or Klasic eventhough they are going to criticise something that people like you do not like, that is why I posted the source that explaines in details the whole situation regarding MF and the whole complexity of it (eventhough it is not a "warrior" or "invalid" part of history), as for Tesla you maybe think that I am defending Serbs because of stating few parts, but you do not see the whole picture too, that is a terrible treatment of him through much of the last 70 years by a Croatian side eventhough as you said he supported a Yugoslav idea and pulling a marketing that is now in affect just because he became extremly popular in last 15 years, I do not see any discussion on Milankovic eventhough the situation is similar with him as with Tesla ,but he is not popular so he is allowed to be a Serb born in AU Empire or even a Serbian scientist (Again here I am not giving a pro Serbian statemant I am giving a critique of hipocrisy in croatian society because I am familiar with it and I would probably criticise serbian society too but I do not know much about the situation there). To be fair and give you a credit I actually think that you and Fkpcascais had an really constructive discussion regarding Tesla (and only Tesla) and it could actually give a conclusion on this page (when this other Troll would not interfere) so I do not disagree with you allways, eventhough I do not have an urge to comment on everything, just stick to the subject and do not accusse people without a context because that makes you a nationalist too. End 188.
Regarding birthplace, the Tesla quote means, at most, that at time of his writting, his birthplace was considered as located in Croatia. Since he is not specific, and the issue is not the subject of the text, claiming any further meaning is just speculation. By reading his article, seems he rather uses that claim to suggest that if it wasn´t for Serbs and their sacrifice in First World War, his birthplace would not have got to be part of Croatia at all. So the quote saying he was born in Croatia seems to be made with the intention to make a point that Croatia was at time of the quote free and expanded thanks to Serbian sacrifice and victory over Austro-Hungary in 1914-18. This means the quote rather refers to the opposite of your claim, that he is not saying he was born in Croatia and then brave Serbs came, but instead, that after Serbs coming and liberating all those lands, it became possible to start saying being born in Croatia. The following sentence where he says Slovenes and Croats are gratefull to Serbs for this, further suggests I am right about this being what he refers to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 07:05, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Please spare me this laughable nonsense. Your IP account is dedicated to months on this page only. You keep coming back pretending to be some sort of defender of Serbian honour. You can’t act the way you do and then pretend to be a voice of reason while actively insulting the person you lecture. Telling everyone they are chauvinists? I spoke in general. I only spoke with you and FkpCascaise who I didn’t say was a chav but coming across as one and another Croatian editor. Interesting how you ignore that, I literally wrote the word “funny” and FkpCascaise writes diatribes about Croatian and Serbian history and yet you go off on me. HAHAHA! Are you sure you aren’t the bitter and hypersensitive one here? You are the one who initiated conversation with me. I was speaking to Sadko and here you are. Unless you are him. You write this massive reply while hypocritically ignoring FkpCascais massive essays, which I called essays and now you use my terms. You keep claiming to have given me a taste of my own medicine, but the fact is you wrote these diatribes before I arrived on this page. Not once did I write an insult towards Serbs. And just because you can source a historical fact doesn’t mean one cannot use it in vicious or nefarious ways. I literally caught you comparing Croats as a whole to Ustashe and that by doing so you claim that is why Croats can’t talk about Tesla. I literally called out Ustashe or Chetnik slurs together. But funny how “Chetnik” really triggered you. Guess it really got to your conscious. And funny how obsessed you became with a conversation I had with FpkCascais that didn’t involve you? Unless you are a puppet account why does it matter to you? It’s a subject that has nothing to do with this page. Hmmmmmm..... And you ignore any any insults he made and blanketly agree with them. And ignore that he initiated a conversation about Croatian history. What a shocker. You don’t even know what he was talking about. Your Swiss example is not at all relevant. He didn’t say the one had more battles than the other. He went on to list not one time Croatia to be capable of winning a war or holding their own while going on about Serbia being an empire and winning multiple world wars and so on. Listing Croatia as struggling for centuries yet leaves put Serbia’s struggle under Ottoman rule for centuries. It’s clear what he was doing. Stop trying to gaslight me. It won’t work for the quote of what he said is right on this page. He claimed that Tesla’s quote to be true. That Serbs are capable warriors and Croats and Slovenes are not. That was what he was defending. I actually provided multiple references stating otherwise. You however take what I say out of context and paint me as someone making brags about Croatian history. Stop embarrassing yourself. Throw a tantrum all you want, you provided not one productive discussion on this page. But I am entertained by how you try to damage control your behavior only to dig a deeper hole. You fail to understand that me calling out your bigoted behavior is valid. Anything any other “Croat” had said on this page is irrelevant. You chose to make the insults you made. There is no justification. You brought up the Ustashe as a way to denigrate other posters and in tern the Croatian people. And you know that “it being a factual event “ is not the same as the intent or way you use that information. Kind of like it is a fact that Chetniks existed and waged mass murder on civilians, but using that history against you and associating you with them would be an intentional insult and a tase of YOUR own medicine. Your whole reply has nothing to do with the subject of this talk page. You are literally mad because I called out your insidious behavior and crypto Serbian nationalism. I never really understood you nationalists. What do you really get out of denigrating other ethnic groups or countries? A false sense of accomplishment, riding on the coattails of other people who did something worthy with their lives in history? Either you are a troll or just absolutely lost and hatefilled. Either way I pity you. At least with Fkp Cascais I could hold a civil conversation. Your intent is vile. You have proven again and again what your real intentions are, as you are incapable of controlling your emotions. And Tesla would be ashamed that you use him as a springboard for such nonsense. I have been consistent my stance. You, ironic, hypocritical and easily triggered over me calling a spade a spade. Stop violating the rules of the page listed above. I know your stubborn type and that you will think you were in the right in how you behave here, but I’m not partaking in your blockable bate tactics. You failed to succeed in getting me to insult or belittle Serbs the way you belittle Croats. Funny you mention “Chauvinism” as that is exactly as you behave teaming up with others to promote a false image of the conversation we are having. As Tesla would say, “If your hate could be converted into electricity, it would light up the world”. Hehe, at least it would serve a good purpose then. Instead of dedicating your time making Serbs look bad to the public. It is clear that you gain pleasure from other people’s misery and talking down to them, but I don’t. That is the difference between you and I. Twisting my words or reinventing what was said on this page is futile. Stop waisting your time. Unlike you, my ego isn’t tied to this page or winning insult contests. But yes, I remember when I was primary school, this was edgy back then. Fortunately most Serbs I speak to and are friends with don’t behave like this. They cringe when they read comments from people of your elk. So sad. Bye bye now :) 74.101.190.2 (talk) 16:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)  ::::::: To spare you a "laughable nonsense" , why because you are a Hypocrite? Buhhu go cry to your mommy kid ,because that is what you are. Uselles Troll who thinks that can comment on everything but does not realise that is uncapable to do that. Off course I took offense because your patronising talk was directed at me and you did called me Chetnik ,I already explained you why I did not replied to Fkpcascais but I also see that you do not reply to the Troll ,does it mean that you are him? Then you have some serious problems (which is obvious) Where did I wrote anything that I agree with Fkpcascais? Seems to me you are accusing again since I am not agreeing with you and why would I (everyone who knows a little bit of history knows that you write nonsense), but hey Fkpcascais did not accussed me on being Chetnik, you did ,nationalistic hypocrite. And all this ranting makes you one , and again it has nothing to do with a subject, but hey you got offended on a all other level , so I am not the one embarrasing myself ,you are, and what did you contributed to the subject , nothing!!! That is your trademark with attacking of editors. You just proved that behind all this speeches there is a little kid who took offense because someone mentioned something you do not like , funny. Well deal with it ,there is much history behind all of it . And where did a I mentioned Ustashe ? So you are accussing me again of something that I did not do, I allready explained my view on a subject but you are obviosly uncapable to understand that because in your little head everyone who writes something against Croats must be a Serb, hahah nationalist, and do not take Tesla"s qoutes against me here because your head remans in a dark of your own hatred towards others . You are just a little hypocritical wannabe elitist and nationalist and you actually proved my point by writing so much (I asked allready why to defend something if you think there are facts on it, but you do not get it, insecured are we hmmm...). Just keep your Troll under control because you should understand this is not a croatian wiki where you and your little friends can block and manipulate the pages as you like, maybe you are also a part of them too. And again I am not the one who is making anyone bad, you are, mostly yourself and I am not the one who is doing damage control either ,because everything is allready written and is known so no damage control is needed, you just need to start reading it .Bye bye .188.
It is really hard to understand how can you ignore the rather harsh and humiliating way Tesla refers to Croats clearly saying they were incapable of fighting for freedom, and next he glorifies Serbs for liberating themselves and liberating Croats and Slovenes as well, like bonus. Anyone else saying this would had been bombarded with accusations of being Serbian nationalist. You "excuse him" saying he was Yugoslavist, but he glorifies clearly Serbs only. Many historians do agree to describe his patriotism as Yugoslavist, but lets not fool ourselves, he supported the Yugoslavia that existed between 1918 till WWII, that was hated by most Croats because is rightfully mostly described as overwelmingly Serb-dominated. Tesla supported it because it was an expanded Serbia that materialised during his lifetime, plus, in such a spectacular manner, after a military victory over an at least 5 times bigger and more powerfull adversary, resulting in uniting most Serbian lands and further liberating other South Slav nations, as if it was easy everyday archivement. He openly writes claiming Slovenes and Croats should be gratefull. You call his views "funny" regarding Croats having needed Serbs to free themselves? I guess you know better this issues than Tesla, that is really genious! I will not even dare to think about it, but it just passes trough my mind how denegrating your though is regarding all Croatian heroes that bravelly struggled to mantain or expand their authonomic rights for the none less then 1000 years which Croatia spent without independence. Meantime, Serbs had medieval kingdoms, even an empire, kicked Ottomans out, started Balkan wars, First World War, won Austro-Hungary, all this by loosing a third or half its overall male population in each war, that´s just coincidence. Luck.
As you well said, you recall several occasions where Tesla makes these highly pro-Serbian assertions, and interestingly, he makes them consistently. From the student times when he founded the Serbian Club in Graz, to the senior years in which he was already a decades-long close collaborator with Yugoslav diplomats in US, he mantains his political views. Contrary to many other scientists, Tesla did had major interest in history and politics, and, while you find his views "funny", somehow many respectable publishers didn´t, and had a great joy in publishing his articles regarding the geopolitical issues of Europe and Balkans. Since there is a small, but loud, group to which you belong that discredit and ridiculise them a priori, making them that way controversial, we did our best here to leave them out of content to please you. This is not new at all, it started already in second Yugoslavia, right after communist regime took power and imposed a trend of anti-monarchism and all sorts of patriotism to be erradicated. Since Tesla was irremovable due to his importance, they counted with the advantage of having him already passed-away 2 years earlier when they took power. A campaign started to turn his Serbian patriotism and monarchism into Yugoslavism, intentionally missleading about what ealrier Yugoslavism meant, to what they are rapidly transforming it to. Nearly half-century of communism, along with more recent tarnishing of Serbian immage, created a seemingly accepted consensus to skip and ignore this aspect of his life. Recently, History Channel episode dedicated exclusivelly to him, menaged to gather an almost hour of content in which Serbia/Serbs and Croatia/Croats are mentione only once each in entire episode, while Yugoslavia got mentioned 3 times. Once this is now in place, instead of you been pleased you on contrary, take advantage and demand more.
The extraordinary mental gymnstics to ignore the ammounts of Tesla prasing of Serbs, and try somehow to archive that the often found missconception of him having been born in Croatia during the time Croatia was under Austro-Hungarian rule, is meant to initially equal Serbian and Croatian connection, and open way to then direct claims that by having been born in Croatia, Croatian connection should prevail. However, unfortunatelly for them, Tesla not only was not born in Croatia, but never even got to live during his lifetime there. FkpCascais (talk) 07:49, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
You keep claiming you know what Tesla "really meant" in his quote of " I was born in Croatia" and then get mad if someone says his claims were wrong. You keep contradicting yourself. All I said is that Tesla made a strange commetn claiming that Croats needed saving by Serbs as they are weak and Serbs are strong despite history showing he is incorrect. You really believe that all history is dictated by one man???? He believed in eugenics as well. Was he also right? He made a number of ridiculous statements in his life as anyone does. Including yourself very much so as we all can see. ITS WHY I NEVER USED HIS QUOTES TO PROVE HIS BIRTHPLACE TO BE SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE MILITARY FRONTIER. "You call his views "funny" regarding Croats having needed Serbs to free themselves? I guess you know better this issues than Tesla, that is really genious! I will not even dare to think about it, but it just passes trough my mind how denegrating your though is regarding all Croatian heroes that bravely struggled to mantain or expand their authonomic rights for the none less then 1000 years which Croatia spent without independence. Meantime, Serbs had medieval kingdoms, even an empire, kicked Ottomans out, started Balkan wars, First World War, won Austro-Hungary, all this by loosing a third or half its overall male population in each war, that´s just coincidence. Luck." Are you talking to me? The hell are you on about? Serbia defeated the Ottomans all by themselves? The Austrians and Hungarians as well? Croatia sided with Austria and before that entered a union with Hungary while still in both parts of history being recognized by them as "Kingdom of Croatia". Are you really claiming that Croats were desperate to leave the Austrian Empire? Croatia having no kingdom for 1000 years? You claim that Serbs started WWI but it was one lone assassin. FUNNY, The Bipartite Austria-Hungary was to transition to a Tripartite with Croatia making Croatia and equal. This was pushed by Ferdinand before his assassination. Coincidence? Luck on the Serbs behalf? Serbians saw this as a threat to their dream of a new state of Yugoslavia. Due to the war, the monarchy crumbled and it never came to fruition. Hungary tried to oppose it as well which lead to Croatia ending their union with Hungary after the war. Yes, Croats must have had it so bad that they would be considered a partner. HAHAHA. You are an editor on Wikipedia? Wikipedia's articles on these history topics disagree with you. Tesla's views are just that. His views. Croatia was never fully occupied by Ottomans for unlike Serbia, for over 400 years. Croatian–Bulgarian battle of 926, Serbia was occupied by Bulgaria, Croatia went to war with Bulgari and won with light loss. Croatia took in Serbian royalty and other Serb refugees and the Kingdom of Serbia was absorbed into Bulgaria. At which Croatia went to war with Bulgaria and won. Funny you forgot that. I never went on about "Croatian heroes" nor did I ever bring up the Tesla quote of "I was born in Croatia". You trying to perpetuate Serbs as "real warriors" and Croats as some invalids is beyond pathetic of you. But your fantasy is your fantasy so enjoy it in you mind. I don't get why you wrote a essay directed at me when I Literally agreed with you that Tesla was born in the Austrian Empire and was an ethnic Serb. I never agreed with other posters on here about changing his wiki box birth place. Tesla harbored some Serbian nationalists ideals, as well as Yugoslav ones as well. He literally said he was "Proud of his Croatian Homeland". Try to spin that all you want. He held no hate for Croats or other ethnicities in the region. Maybe follow his lead then. Nationalist revisionists are all the same. Be it Croat or Serb, always the same nonsense. First you claim his quote is not to be taken seriously and then you argue he was right to claim Croats needed saving. LOL74.101.190.2 (talk) 22:51, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Tesla was pretty smart to know where he was born. Secondary sources are saying the same thing so there's no need for you to explain to us what Tesla actually meant. I put forward 3 sources. One is a primary source of Tesla's own statement that he was born in Croatia. Second is a historical source which directly refers to kings proclamation that MF and Croatia form a single land. Third is a Tesla's biography which provides an explanation that MF is in fact Croatia. 89.164.176.104 (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
And I provide a source that proves that until 1881. MF was not part of Croatia and Tesla was born in MF and that everything that is written on main article is true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.101.86.254 (talk) 22:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
No you haven't. Your source refers to separate administration and yoi are misinterpreting it as if MF was a separate land from Croatia89.164.165.164 (talk) 06:08, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
The Military Frontier was owned by the Austrian Empire. It was former Croatian territory historically but not during the time Tesla was born there. Tesla was a Serb born in the Military Frontier. Yet I still get attacked by both sides lol. That's it. This whole page is a waste of space. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 23:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes, during the time Tesla was born there. From 1850 at least , to be precise. 89.164.165.164 (talk) 06:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Tesla was born and lived in Military Frontier. He never got to live in any place belonging to Croatia instead. Croatia was a neighbouring province. The reality of the two was very distinct. During the time Tesla spent there, MF existed for 3 centuries already and its population had created a distinct identity and characteristics. I presented sources talking about it. Historiography overwelmingly agrees that western part of MF came under Croatian administration in 1881. Before that, sources agree that Croat deputees were insistent like hell to be allowed to expand to MF, and join with Slavonia and Dalmatia. Historiography is clear regarding what happened and when happened, and what didn´t. There is no controversy at all. Your source claiming that back then emperor signed a treaty saying MF was part of same land with Croatia stands alone on that claim, which, by the way, is not even clear at all what exactly it means. "One land" as all is part of Habsburg empire and counts the same regarding taxation? Because administrativelly and politically clearly wasn´t "one land" in any means.
Regarding history and Tesla claims, I said that I wasn´t as nearly as brave as you to even dare to comment and judge if Tesla claims are right, or wrong, regarding Croats needing Serbs to get free from A-H. You were not reading me carefully and you failed to notece that I never said that he was right. All I said is that I find extremelly wrong that you allow yourself to refer as "funny" to Tesla claims just because you disagree with them, and then I just gave you an exemple of why they can be many things, but not funny. I triggered you to come out with the tendentious partisan missconceptions you have about the Serbo-Croatian conflict. I just mentioned the rest of the content of Tesla text without saying anything about my personal opinion. Honestly, I even feel unconfortable, such is the ammount of Serbian nationalism that Tesla had. Consequently, I really can´t understand what any Croatian patriots want and hope to get from him? His views on ethnical and political issues are so pro-Serbian and embaracing to you, that you can´t do nothing else then claiming them "funny" as if he was making a joke, however, he wasn´t, at all, he was bloody serious, and that is really what he believed. You say that he doesn´t hate Croatia, I agree on that, but claiming all Croats are greatfull to Serbs for their freedom is quite embaracing and humiliating. More Serbian nationalist than that is impossible. So, why all this effort around him? If anything, his article here is really missing his patriotism and nationalism, intentionally because editors in general believed that way controversy will be avoided. There is even a clear atempt to provide some equality between Serbia and Croatia in the article, supposed to create a peacefull environment where editors could focus on his work and archivements. But, instead of being pleased, you guys seem to have taken it as encouragment to push it more. It´s incredible how you persistently try and try for years now, always same story, just hammering in a slightly different angle (sometimes not even that, just copy/paste requests) and hope this time will pass. Ironically, just like Croatian parliamentarians persistently demanded for centuries same authonomical requests to Habsburgs never giving up for centuries. However, I praise those parliamentarians, they were brave fighting for freedom under extremelly unfavorable circunstances, while in your case it is just a lost cause with you just being stubborn in what is ultimatelly actually an embaracing situation for you. If you just had spent this time and effort in a positive way on some Croatian-related articles it would had been so great. FkpCascais (talk) 01:48, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
My reply has a lot of quotes in it so bare with me, it's a bit long. Now, notice how your whole reply to me that you for some reason addressed to someone else, has zero to do with the topics on this page or the Tesla article. Why does one have to be "brave" or be “daring “to disagree with another person's view? Why are you so angered by me disagreeing or disproving Tesla’s claim about Croats? Very very strange that it would “trigger” you. I never called tesla an insult or belittled him. Should we not question Tesla's pro eugenics stances? I said his belief that “Croats are incapable fighters and Serbs are their needed saviors” is funny because it directly contradicts history acknowledged by the vast majority of historians. I never claimed to be smarter than him. But no one is infallible. What is also funny is that you claim I am the "triggered" one when it is you that is triggered. Just look at yourself. You reply to me with these long-winded insidious diatribes, for example your words not Tesla’s:
“You call his views "funny" regarding Croats having needed Serbs to free themselves? I guess you know better this issues than Tesla, that is really genious! I will not even dare to think about it, but it just passes trough my mind how denegrating your though is regarding all Croatian heroes that bravelly struggled to mantain or expand their authonomic rights for the none less then 1000 years which Croatia spent without independence. Meantime, Serbs had medieval kingdoms, even an empire, kicked Ottomans out, started Balkan wars, First World War, won Austro-Hungary, all this by loosing a third or half its overall male population in each war, that´s just coincidence. Luck.” Tesla is not renowned for being a historian. Being a master physicists and engineer does not mean his word on historical event is absolute. You wouldn't be this defensive if Einstein stated some belittling claim of Serbs. As you stated if Tesla was very much a Serb nationalists that means he is also vulnerable to being biased or selective with his views. You don't really make sense here.Do you know if Tesla had all the facts? There have been historians guilty of revisionism and biassed in the past despite being highly trained academics. Again, no one is infallible. Not even you.
And then you say “You were not reading me carefully and you failed to notece that I never said that he was right.” Seems you were indeed trying to validate his claim. All I did is counter this rant of yours with historical facts that show otherwise. You realize everything written here is etched in stone pretty much. You can’t deny what you wrote. I merely responded disproving your perceived nationalist rant.
You try to define Tesla as some hardline Serb nationalist while ironically trying to pretend you know what went on in his mind and what he truly meant by his quotes. Jesus…. His one quote doesn’t define him. He has said so many different things.
“Honestly, I even feel unconfortable, such is the ammount of Serbian nationalism that Tesla had” Sounds like you are “disagreeing” with him in some ways….“I agree on that, but claiming all Croats are greatfull to Serbs for their freedom is quite embaracing and humiliating.” Either you agree with him hence why you went off at me, or you disagree with him. These are the only two takeaways from your sentence. Either way making you hypocritical as you surely can’t be so bold as to judge Tesla. Being that you keep repeating that same line, I bet you get enjoyment out of it in a trolling sort of manor in which you conduct yourself on here.
Again, you are trying to portray Tesla as some staunch ultranationalist based on something he once said. Defining him why that one moment in time. So odd.
“you guys seem to have taken it as encouragment to push it more.” What guys? I agreed with you on the topic of this page. He was born on the Military Frontier in the Austrian Empire. But you reply to me with these essays about a topic that has nothing to do with this talk page.
“His views on ethnical and political issues are so pro-Serbian and embaracing to you, that you can´t do nothing else then claiming them "funny" as if he was making a joke,” I didn’t say he didn’t mean it. I said his views on the subject don’t align with historical narratives . Neither does your agreeing with his views. You keep repeating how “embarrassing” what Tesla said is for Croats. Perhaps it makes you giddy to believe so. It makes it obvious with such vigor that you defend his “embarrassing” quote that you desperately want what Tesla’ claim to be deemed as truth. Why would it be "embarrassing" to me? It is false to claim I am in denial due to embarrassment just to discredit my points without any real counterpoints of your own. I could claim you are embarrassed by Tesla's pro Yugoslav stance.
“just like Croatian parliamentarians persistently demanded for centuries same authonomical requests to Habsburgs never giving up for centuries.” Likewise as Serbian centuries of struggle for autonomy under enemy Ottoman rule, you seem to be your own worst enemy as you struggle with yourself. Firstly, the Kingdom of Croatia was a recognized autonomous entity. Nice try. And let's not act like The Kingdom of Croatia did not voluntairly join the empire. They gained advantages doing so. Trying to low-key belittle Croatia because it wasn't an imperialist empire that colonized or at least tried too, isn't going to bate me to well.
“while in your case it is just a lost cause with you just being stubborn in what is ultimatelly actually an embaracing situation for you.” Classic projection. Take your own advice. You went off the rails because I pointed out how Tesla’s claim about history was incorrect. You then realized how you way overreacted in a very toxic manner for no good reason. Going on a rant about Croats while laughably confusing me with other IPs talking on this page. You accidentally let out your real intentions on here.
I get that you hold a bitterness towards Croats because of conflicts you had with Croatian editors on Wikipedia in the past, but it doesn’t excuse your behavior towards me nor towards Croatians as a people. And a clever as you may feel you are in hiding that bitterness, it shows plain as day. Even in trying to antagonize people like me who had agreed with your assertion that Tesla was born on the Military Frontier. Just to troll and get into arguments for entertainment? Really? Yet, you continue to violate WP:NPA multiple times in this discussion. I as well in engaging with you.
Some other quotes Tesla made FYI:
“Yugoslavs — Serbians, Slavonians, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Dalmations, Montenagrins, Croatians and Slovenes — are of the same race, speak the same language and have common national ideals and traditions.” This is from the same address you selective quote his assertion that Croats are “grateful” to Serbs. An address in tribute to King Alexander. Of Yugoslavia. He was above all else pro Yugoslav Unity . Funny you broke your own rule against taking quotes out of context. Tesla's quote here is truly humiliating and embarrassing for any Serbian nationalists. As Tesla claims there is no particular Serbian language and are the same people as any other Southern Slav. Seems I am very aware of Serbo-Croatian geopolitics when it comes to Tesla. Are you?
“I am equally proud of my Serbian origin and Croatian homeland.”
“As a son of this country [Croatia], I consider it my duty to help the City of Zagreb in every way, either through counsel or through action”
What a “major Serbian nationalist to the most extent” he was …… this is ridiculous……
You really are insulting Tesla, not Croats or I when you misrepresent his views and him as a person. Just to spite I or Croats. Clearly it isn’t I who is stubborn here. And I see little reason for me to continue trying to reason with you. What’s truly funny is you disagree with his own viewpoint that he was born in Croatia. So you admit that a person’s claim is not fact or reality, so to say. And can be argued against. Again, contradictions, confusion, bitterness, stubbornness, and so on from your end.
Of course you will predictably reply with another passive aggressive essay about me or other peoples. Still unable to refute what I say nor address it properly. Instead of trolling on this talk page, why don't YOU use such energy to positively improve Serbian articles? Instead of trying to stick it to the Croats, while in delusion, convincing yourself that Tesla and yourself are successfully "humiliating" Croats as apposed to........ yourselves. A good amount if humiliation has occurred on this page. But none at the expensive of Croats or myself. You spent months on this page. I spent a few days, a few posts. I think I am conserving my energy well ;)
Here is a Tesla quote made to a journalists that was pestering him, for you to reflect on when facing anything in life that makes you angered or upset "If your hate could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world."
I hope you find peace one day. I'm being serious and not passive aggressive when I say this. As I want people to be genuinely well off and not enemies or hostile to each other. Had we met in real life, perhaps we would have shared some drinks. Regardless, I think I made my case here quite successfully. There is no way around your walking contradiction and irony. I’m not entertaining your trolling. Let’s be honest. If you were legitimate, you wouldn’t be spending time on this ridiculous talk page of Other like minded trolls. Find a better hobby. Cheers mate. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 02:55, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


So, if you will be kind, you can read the previous thread and see the sources I presented and how the same exact request as yours was rejected. You can go further back and see how IP accounts are repeatedly making the same exact request you are making using the same exact sources and how over ten editors disagreed with you and presented you sources and reasons why your request is rejected, so in case you persist not adressing the answers already provided to you, you risk breaking Wikipedia:IDONTHEARYOU, which is basically ignoring and making fun of senior editors which took time and dedication to adress your concerns but you keep ignoring. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 05:27, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes I agree he was born in MF and the sources on Tesla are pretty clearly describing what MF was at that time: "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina". Your interpretations are here irrelevant. You found some sources which are referring to separate administration , which indeed existed as Horvat explains but you are misinterpreting that separate administration as if MF was a separate land. That is not only your own interpretation but it directly goes against the presented sources. 89.164.165.164 (talk) 08:55, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Now, what exactly don't you understand in this quote? It exactly explains what MF is. What don't you understand in the quote "same land, separate administration"? 89.164.165.164 (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
I didn´t found "some" sources which totallyy contradict your claim, but they are just some of the sea of sources confirming MF existed as separate administrative unit until 1881. We don´t need to go any further and bring hundred sources, the ones brought are scholar and enough. I insisted in bringing exemples of neutral scholar tertiary sources. I insisted in not using a single Serbian author, so no doubts of bias could be made. On contrary, you brought an over century old source from a Croatian author who claims certain treaties with certain content were signed on certain dates. Your source fails to mention if the treaties were respected at all, if they happened, it just says they were signed. Having in mind it is Austro-Hungarian politics we are talking about, a topic exhaustivelly analised into details by historians, it is absolutelly impossible that you have found some major event which had been somehow missed till now. If you don´t have sources confirming it, and plenty claiming otherwise, it is because your claim didn´t happened. Then, you have the problem regarding the meaning of "one land". You are assuming "one land" means it was all Croatia, however, historiography confirms Croatia had to wait much longer to get some jurisdiction over MF. Then, there is the issue of MF not having ever been claimed by Croatia in its entire extent. Any such agreement if taken seriously and applied would have certainly specified the parts of MF to be "one land" with Croatia, never all of MF which extended as far as central Romania. Then we have another problem, related to already mentioned, if existed, what was that "single land" called? You assume it was Croatia how? Croatia even lost all authonomy in 1867 meaning that for a period was less then Slavonia or MF. As historiography clearly shows, while Croatia lost its authonomy, Slavonia and MF didn´t, so that is another clear indicator none of that "single land" became reality.
So, historiography is clear that until 1881 MF existed alongside Croatia and were both internal administrative units within Austrian first, then Austro-Hungarian empire. If they were separated each one having its own territory, we can´t mix one with the other. The part of MF where Tesla was born and grew-up was under MF administration, and Croatia only got to have atributed part of MF which indeed included where Tesla had been, in 1881, however, by then, Tesla was gone elsewhere. If Smiljan and Karlovac where Tesla lived were part of MF while at same time there was a Croatia existing somewhere else, saying Smiljan and Karlovac were in Croatia is factually wrong. Scholar sources are clear, there is no controversy at all, so the case seems solved. BTW, I haven´t edited the article, all content is result of consensus established by a number of dedicated senior editors with no links whatsoever to the dispute, which based their conslusiond just on sources presented. You can read previous threads where the answers to your questions are well explained. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 00:26, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it existed as a separate administrative unit, but not as a separate land. If you are not sure what the term land means you are free to read the sources I provided pass the quotes I provided for the purpose of this discussion. If you are unsure start from the kings title where you will find "king of Croatia and Slavonia", but not "king of Military Frontier". If you have so much contempt towards Croatians to suggest that Horvat made up the 1850' proclamation because he is Croatian, I would call that extremely biased. I don't care what Horvat wrote, I'm just using it as a secondary source for the 1850' proclamation just for one reason. So that you cannot make an argument that you are trying to make here, that we don't know whether that proclamation was followed. We do know as we have a secondary source reporting on it. As for the terminology. It's not me calling it Croatia, but Tesla. Officially the name is "Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia". MF cannot be viewed as a separate land like Hungary was compared to Croatia, but as a temporary administrative unit within Croatia. That administration was abolished in 1881. 89.164.129.7 (talk) 12:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
No problem. Discussion is finished. FkpCascais (talk) 04:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
By the way, I looked at your edit history. I never filed a formal report against you. Not sure what you mean. I didn't bate you or try to antagonize you. I would get blocked if that was my goal. Though I feel that you were bating me. I complained of your overall talks on this page as example among other inflammatory remarks made by random IPs and other users on here. Because you come across quite insulting and in bad faith from what I can see of your writings. And your claims made in a post on your page that you retracted, that I claimed " Croatia equal union with Hungary" and so on. Not at all what I was trying to say. Union is the term used in the wiki articles and their sources. That's why I used it. They weren't annexed though. They maintained autonomy as Kingdom of Croatia. I don't care about kings or empires or whatever. I never claimed that they were a long as lasting empire as the Serbian Empire. They were not annexed into the Kingdom of Hungary like parts of Ukraine or Romania. Not to mention Dalmatia was not in the Hungo Empire. Saying they were struggling for 1000 years is very misleading. I didn't deny that they were under Austrian and Hungarian rule. But they weren't colonized or occupied. Hungary didn’t wage war and invade Croatia and conquer them. Croatia consented to joining a union as their line of kings died out. Hence why kings of Hungar are also listed as Kings of Croatia. They were recognized as a legitimate entity. It not being Croatian kings doesn’t mean the Kingdom of Croatia didn’t exist. I didn’t claim they were some world power. But they weren’t a band of invalids either. Croatias wars with the Ottomans was noted. Why downplay that if we are all for being transparent about history? Had they been taken over I would fully acknowledge it. Croatian historians hold that the union was a personal one in the form of a shared king, a view also accepted by a number of Hungarian historians. There was no war between them. [1][2][3][4][5][6] Serbian and Hungarian nationalists in contemporary times preferred to view it as annexation or being conquered. [7][8][9] The claim of a Hungarian occupation was made in the 19th century during the Hungarian national reawakening.[9] But again there was no explanation for this. And over the centuries amount of independence changed throughout. At times very much an independent Kingdom to being more the dynamic between Scottland and England. It’s not simple just like any Balkan history, It’s not black and white. No battle or bloodshed. Hence by apprehension with you thinking you are trying to spin things. But this wasn’t a Poland situation of being wiped off the map. That has been my trouble with you. It would be like me saying Serbia was nationless for almost 500 years under Ottoman ruler, which Serbs did not consent to joining. And of course, if not for the fight Serbs continually put up, Croats would have been completely overrun by Ottoman forces, And Austria mores so than it did. I'm not some chest thumping nationalist, I don't deny this understanding. You won't even acknowledge the 100 years war of Croat vs the Ottomans or the war with Bulgarians. Does it kill you that much to acknowledge the capabilities Croatia had historicaly and the good will in how they helped Serbs? As you said, what is the issue if it doesn't poorly reflect the countries today? I have noting to prove. Do you? You view Tesla’s words as nationalistic but it seems you agree with his assessment. This is what I don’t understand. Back to the 1000 years What else is one to think of your intentions there? Accusing me of bad faith or revising history makes no sense. Because then you would have to claim the the Wikipedia articles about the topic are all phony. Bare in mind the context of my replies was to yours. I won't bother with the rest of what you retracted on your page. I am aware that the Kingodm of Yugoslavia became more and more a Serbian dominated state. However many Serbian nationalist paint it as some equal state that Croats had no disadvantages in. Point I was making was Croats weren't in desperation to leave the empire. Else they would have fought on a different side in WWI. Also your claim that I was attacking Serbs is totally unfounded. Also I did not claim that Yugoslavia was all equal. I described what the intentions were. Never did I claim that they were equals to Austrians or Hungarians in terms of nations or status. Come on. Perhaps I could have been more measured in myre replies but you have to admit your replies came across as accusatory and incendiary. Maybe it is our Balkan blood. But also perhaps we fail to convey are points to each other. Lost in translation. 74.101.190.2 (talk) 04:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
No doubt that Tesla was born in Croatian Military Frontier, but that cannot stand since POV pushers are not liking this "Croatian" part in the name historians are using. 89.164.129.7 (talk) 12:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Not to mention that he is bothered by anything that has Tesla connected to Croatia [7]89.164.129.7 (talk) 12:16, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Tesla's birthplace, nothing you wrote here matters. The point is the some people here are trying to push Tesla's birthplace to be "today's Croatia" or "Military Frontier" or "Austrian Empire" with their own interpretation how MF is a separate entity, while we have Tesla's biographies stating this ""Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina"". And when someone complains and points out this sources, then he's POV pushing, NOTHERE, sock and so on...89.164.129.7 (talk) 19:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Of course that it is not important what I say, but what the numerous sources I presented say. This is not some obsrcure remote place in history but rather a well documented place and period which historiography has clear conclusions regarding what, when and where happened. Discussions took place elsewhere and came with same results. You presented no new sources or arguments, just a new attempt is a slightly changed conjesture. Meantime, you ignore the sources and conclusions made by neutral senior editors. No one has nothing against you, or Croatia, but an encyclopedia can´t include something that scholar sources clearly indicate otherwise. I also find offensive that you acuse me of POV-pushing when all I did was presenting evidence of how and why your claims are wrong. PS: If you notece, this thread has been closed with result "Not done". So continuing this is useless. Regards, FkpCascais (talk) 22:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
"Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina"". As I can see this is what the sources are saying. 141.136.246.231 (talk) 11:06, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Barany was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference HR-HU-Heka was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Kristó Gyula: A magyar–horvát perszonálunió kialakulása [The formation of Croatian-Hungarian personal union](in Hungarian)
  4. ^ Márta Font - Ugarsko Kraljevstvo i Hrvatska u srednjem vijeku [Hungarian Kingdom and Croatia in the Middlea Ages] "Medieval Hungary and Croatia were, in terms of public international law, allied by means of personal union created in the late 11th century."
  5. ^ Lukács István - A horvát irodalom története, Budapest, Nemzeti Tankönyvkiadó, 1996.[The history of Croatian literature](in Hungarian)
  6. ^ Barna Mezey: Magyar alkotmánytörténet, Budapest, 1995, p. 66
  7. ^ Cite error: The named reference JWSedlar was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  8. ^ Jeffries, Ian (1998). A History of Eastern Europe. Psychology Press. p. 195. ISBN 0415161126. Retrieved 16 January 2014.
  9. ^ a b Bellamy, Alex J. (2003). The Formation of Croatian National Identity. Manchester University Press. pp. 37–38.
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