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There are very few novels that introduce so many neologisms that become part of the vernacular, as does 1984. For many of these words, Wikipedia has a separate entry. (Consider, in addition, that they are all grouped under the very common adjectival neologism 'Orwellian'.) I suggest a new section, 'Neologisms in 1984', be added here. BooksXYZ (talk) 13:47, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
In the plot/theme summary in the lede, the first and only mention of Julia is the sentence "Orwell based the character of the heroine of the novel, Julia, on his second wife, Sonia Orwell." Would it not be better to introduce Julia first, and then present Sonia Orwell in the character list/analysis in the main body - where SO at the moment does not appear at all, so that the lead does not summarize article content on Julia? T 22.214.171.124 (talk) 11:49, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Your second addition is a little hard to follow, but I think I agree. It's not a big deal, as the Julia mention in the lede follow the introduction of Winston, but to relocate the reference to Sonia Orwell would fit just as well in the character descriptions. Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:58, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
1984 is unambiguously the common name by WP's definition as virtually all of the reliable sources cited in this article refer to it as "1984" and not a single one spells it out. This is also very clearly the primary topic. This article is much more popular than than the article on the year 1984, with a daily average of 8,216 vs 687 pageviews. According to google trends, since 2004, hardly anyone has searched for the term "nineteen eight-four" and many people have searched for "1984". Googling "1984" alone with no other search times, will first bring up websites referencing the novel, then adaptations of the novel, before any other uses of 1984.
There are a number of past discussions on this in the archives (I'll add links to relevant threads later tonight), but I haven't read a single argument in favor of the current naming system that is supported by current policies and guidelines. A lot of the discussions were 10+ years ago, so things might have been different then. The most common reasons seem to have been that it was spelled out as Nineteen eighty-four in the first edition of the book, which is antithetical to WP:Common name, and that it would be too confusing to move the article on the year 1984 to 1984 (year) since every other year article can easily be wikilinked with double brackets, which not only contradicts the DAB guidelines for primary topics, but linking years is discouraged in the MOS anyway, so this shouldn't be happening.
TL;DR: The vast majority of reliable sources only use the number 1984 to refer to the title of Orwell's novel. There are hardly any sources that primarily refer to the book with the spelled-out title or mention that it was spelled out in the original edition. No one google searches "Nineteen eighty-four"; many people google "1984" and the majority of those searches are for the novel, followed by its adaptations. Way more people are interested in reading the WP article about the book than the year, so readers of this article should be our primary concern. —PermStrump(talk) 01:42, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Support anything that makes year indicate they are years, since bare numbers are obviously numbers in the default case (this page not being the default case, therefore being a special case) -- 126.96.36.199 (talk) 08:13, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose The novel was originally published as Nineteen Eighty-Four. This title unambiguously refers to the novel; a numerical title is ambiguous. Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 08:58, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
This reasoning is specifically discouraged in the policy WP:Common name: "Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred."—PermStrump(talk) 16:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - the book is not called "1984", but "Nineteen Eighty-Four". The article title is not referring to a number, but to the title of a book - ergo the article title should (as it currently does) match the book title - dash and all. I see that the 1984 article has a hatnote to the novel, and I think that's good enough. Chaheel Riens (talk) 09:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
This argument is not based on a WP policy. The policy WP:Common name does give guidance in this type of scenario: It says we should name the article based on what the majority of reliable sources use. WP considers the most reliable sources on any topic to be third party analysis in secondary or tertiary sources published by sources of authority or with a reputation for accuracy and fact checking. A picture of the original title is the primary source, so (1) it's not the highest quality source we have on this topic as far as how the book has commonly been referred to since it was first published. The first edition of the book is also only one source, so it's outweighed against the vast majority that write the title in the numerical format. —PermStrump(talk) 16:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Commonname doesn't offer guidance here because it makes no mention or guidance of the difference between expressing a numerical book title as either numerals or words. It's particularly confusing because the term is pronounced in exactly the same way, so we only have the written word to distinguish the phrase. Google is not much help in this instance because running a search for "1984" returns - as the very first result the Wikipedia article for Nineteen Eighty-Four. Therefore it must be assumed that search results for "1984" are being tainted by "Nineteen Eighty-Four" - just as "Nineteen Eighty-Four" includes results for "1984". This shows that at the very least there is enough usage of the term "Nineteen Eighty-Four" - even when searching for 1984 that "Nineteen Eighty-Four" is the primary topic when referring to the novel. I'm also not convinced of your assumption that the first edition cover is not a valid source. You're correct that it is not an example of how the novel is referred to, but it is an excellent example of the novels name, and how it should be referred to. In this case being a primary source is not detrimental.
As a final comment I'll point out that while going against other opinions, you haven't actually made an argument to support "1984" as being the primary topic, or at least if you have you've diluted it over several different places - it would help if you placed a (presumably) Support statement with your arguments here as well. Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:10, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. There is no way on Earth the book is the primary topic for 1984, and the current title seems fine for DAB purposes. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:51, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Did you notice that I linked to a graph that shows the pageviews and also google trends? I'm not just guessing this one is the common name. —PermStrump(talk) 16:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
If you capitalize your Google search term it comes up with a different result. Not every search is for the book, far from it, so this capitalized result shows the continued interest in the book. Randy Kryn 17:01, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm not a wikilawyer, but it seems, like an editor says above, commonsense and "if it ain't broke..." should come into consideration here. It certainly is not broke, as google searches come right to this page, and commonsense seems to fall on the side of "iconic name" plus "encyclopedia" equals accuracy. Randy Kryn 02:59, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
It is broke. Editors meaning to wikilink this page have been linking [] assuming this it leads here. Probably around 200 readers per day that are trying to read about the novel are first misdirected to the year article from a backlink in another wikipedia articles related to Orwell's novel and then have to figure out how to get here. Non-editors don't automatically know to look for hatnotes. Most probably see it eventually, but this is the whole point of common name, so readers can intuitively navigate between articles without ending up on random pages. I have no idea what you mean by "iconic name" but virtually all of the sources cited in this article write the title as 1984 using the numbers. No one who opposes the move has linked to a single reliable, secondary source that spells it out. —PermStrump(talk) 03:30, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose The book was published with the full title. Both '1984 book' and '1984 novel' already redirect here, and there is a hatnote on '1984'. All five bases covered. Randy Kryn 15:09, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
This is not based on a WP policy or guideline. Users looking for this article are much more likely to be misdirected to the year article than the reverse and that's frustrating for readers. Since this article is so much more popular, we will frustrate less readers by changing this page to the most recognizable name. —PermStrump(talk) 16:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Just created redirects for book 1984 and novel 1984, which might get more readers directly to the book. Not as popular per the capitalized google version, I haven't looked at n-grams. This seems like one of those iconic cases where the real name of an iconic work is good enough. Wikipedia should look professional, and making such a major change to an iconic work's encyclopedic title, which reflects on the accuracy of the site, just doesn't have enough reasons. Thanks for putting editor's attention on this, it's a good page to create redirects to and to edit and polish the page itself. Randy Kryn 20:13, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Support per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. First, the article about the book gets far more page views. Second, the term 1984 is very commonly used in reliable sources to refer to this book, probably more commonly than the original official title (spelled out). In any case 1984 should at least redirect to the article about the book, but I support moving the article here. --В²C☎ 00:03, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Redirecting '1984' to here sounds good. The name should stay the formal full name, let's not go hog wild and change the name of an iconic book, but yes, the redirect from '1984' could be something to explore. Randy Kryn 00:13, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The fact that it is officially known and sold today as 1984 overrides what it was known as in the past with respect to choosing the article title on WP. Current usage in reliable sources is what is most relevant to WP article title selection. --В²C☎ 02:06, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, but it's also still officially known and sold today as Nineteen Eighty-Four - from the same seller. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. The book should remain at Nineteen Eighty-Four, which is the original title; usual bibliographic practice is to make the first edition the main title unless later editions overwhelmingly favour a later title. See here for a (probably quite incomplete) list of editions; it is clearly still published under the original title as well as under 1984; in fact the great majority of the 1984 titles are from a single publisher. If academic sources had switched to using the 1984 title I might be persuaded it should change, but a look in JSTOR doesn't support that -- I can't be sure which title is the most commmon because of the difficulty of avoiding the year in searches for Orwell, but the spelled-out title is clearly still in frequent use. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:02, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Searching for "1984 orwell" on amazon.co.uk brings up three editions; two have "Nineteen Eighty-Four" in the Amazon product description as well, and the other is revealed by the "Look Inside" function to have Nineteen Eighty-Four on the title page, not 1984. On amazon.com, the same search leads to four editions, two of which have Nineteen Eighty-Four on the title page. Searching for "nineteen eighty-four orwell" on both sites finds additional editions. Overall this means that most current editions of the book use the spelled-out title; and I'm not counting out of print editions, which would skew the results further in that direction. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:12, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose for a couple reasons. First, "Nineteen Eighty-Four" is the original title of the book, and it is still regularly used in releases today. In the Amazon reference above, the copyright page states the title as "Ninteen eighty-four", and I suspect this is the case for most (if not all) releases. Secondly, per ISFDB, the use of "Nineteen Eighty-Four" or "1984" is pretty evenly split (about 60 to 80, if I counted correctly). To know for sure which title is used, we'd have to look at the title page of each of those editions, as the marketing departements at publishers sometimes use a different title on the cover. The title page is the definitive title for any particular edition. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:09, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Can you link to a few of those that are reliable sources? ISFDB is a user-generated wiki (with an awesome c. 1998 themed webdesign), but it WP doesn't consider user-generated websites WP:Reliable sources for contentious claims. Since the title ISFDB uses conflicts with countless scholarly articles published in peer-reviewed journals, it only makes sense to go with the highest quality sources. Luckily, there's no shortage of top-quality sources on this topic. —PermStrump(talk) 04:23, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Very little of ISFDB is a wiki. The vast majority of the site (including what I linked to, above) is curated material which requires verification to the source of the information. Every entry is reviewed by a small group of moderators to determine if it can be approved or should be declined. The database (which, again, is the largest section of the site by far) is absolutely a reliable source. And I seriously doubt the scholarly articles are "countless". Here's a quick search for "nineteen eighty-four" on Google Scholar and JSTOR. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:30, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
ISFDB's disclaimer makes it sound like the whole thing is user-generated. Even assuming there are sections that aren't, it's still a self-published source that explicitly states in the disclaimer "ISFDB cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here", so it really doesn't make sense consider it in this discussion where there are so many solid sources that fit WP's criteria. Here's a comparison of of the results in different search terms:
That's just a legal disclaimer so someone doesn't try to sue them for something if it turns out to be inaccurate. Even news sites have disclaimers like that. Also, as someone else pointed out, the hit results are not necessarily valid as most articles using "Nineteen Eighty-Four" will also use "1984" somewhere in them. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 20:46, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. The rules invoked in support of this change (like WP:COMMONNAME) are supposed to make access to articles more predictable, but my feeling is that this case the change would more likely just make things more confusing. The spelled out title is always recognizable as the book title.--Arxiloxos (talk) 06:28, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Strong oppose. The common name for the novel may or may not be "1984", but the primary topic for 1984 is clearly the year itself. I would not ,however, be opposed to 1984 (novel). ONR (talk) 07:20, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
On what basis are you claiming the year article is the primary topic when this page has an average of 8,216 daily pageviews and the year article only has 687 (see links to those pageview stats in my original rationale)? When you google "1984" alone, the first several pages are about the book or adaptations of the book. —PermStrump(talk) 07:59, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. As per ONR. I haven't seen enough compelling evidence that 1984 is so significantly more commonly used than the books originally published title to justify a 1984 primary article. However, 1984 (novel) is good for me too. Scribolt (talk) 07:50, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
These are some examples of search results for 1984 orwell vs nineteen eighty-four orwell:
Google scholar: 52,000 vs 13,400
JSTOR: 6,335 vs 3025
That's not "compelling" enough for you? —PermStrump(talk) 07:59, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
No, it's not (I did read those figures btw). One has a 80/20 split, the other 66/33. If we didn't have year articles with their current naming convention (which is a separate argument), then yes, looking at those figures it would make sense to change the book title to 1984. However, that's not the situation, so the standard for me therefore becomes, 'is the title so unrepresentative and inaccurate that it's going to confuse or mislead people?'. And imo, that isn't supported by that evidence. For what it's worth, I don't like the year articles very much and I would be quite happy for them to be 1984 AD or 1984 (year) or whatever. But we shouldn't do it on a one to one basis because having consistency is more important. Scribolt (talk) 08:56, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
On the one hand, moving the year article to 1984 AD wouldn't be WP:consistent with the other year articles. On the other hand, 1984 is the book's wp:common name and the the book is the wp:primary topic. So the policies are in conflict, but IMO, considering the lack of interest in the year article relative to this one (8,216 vs 687 average daily pageviews), we should be asking ourselves what's going to be confusing or misleading from their perspective instead. —PermStrump(talk) 10:38, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - I see this as being one of those situations where two reasonable guidelines are being weighed against one another. People generally tend not to spell out numbers nowadays (I learned at school to spell out all numbers up to "twelve", and continue to do so, and have noticed that I am frequently one of the only people in off-wiki discussions amongst people around me to do so). On the other hand, "1984" is taken as primarily being the year, rather than the book, so it would potentially be inconsistent for a sequence of articles to be year, year, book, year. To be honest, though, I think Scribolt makes a good point that the year articles themselves are ambiguous by virtue of having no suffix. While more recent years are much more likely to be the CE page, older years (closer to 0 CE) will have less weighting towards recency. I think naming of the year articles is a point that is more importantly addressed, after which point moving the book to 1984 would be more likely to gain consensus. — Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 15:21, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Comment If this is moved, the year should be moved to AD 1984 instead, per consensus on Talk:AD 1. Pppery 21:20, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. The original title cover spells out the year. It should remain that way. As for 1984 (Novel), it should remain as a redirect to this article. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 22:09, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose per others, especially Mike Christie and Nihonjoe. While a lot of folks might use "1984" as a shorthand, I do not see the current title as truly violating the spirit of COMMONNAME. Vanamonde (talk) 03:38, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose. The common name for the novel may be "1984", but the primary topic for 1984 is the actual year. While not the point of this discussion, I would support this article being renamed to 1984 (novel).--Frmorrison (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose The primary topic for 1984 is the actual year and so the original title seems best. Andrew D. (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose current title appropriately uses WP:NATURAL disambiguation. feminist 11:32, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Oppose Per WP:Article Titles, specifically requirement for consistency. Primary article for "1984" should be the AD year, consistent with other years. Furthermore, the claim that "virtually all of the reliable sources cited in this article refer to it as "1984" and not a single one spells it out" is clearly inaccurate: if you inspect the sources, you will see that a significant number refer to the novel as "Nineteen Eighty-Four". Note that some links to newpspare articles contain "1984" in the title (for brevity/space, presumably) but "Nineteen Eighty-Four" in the text of the article. Style guides (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-observer-style-guide-n) favour "Nineteen Eighty-Four".JayZed (talk) 14:08, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
Comment the various year templates/parameters that expect a 1984 to be an AD year will need adjustment. Though, it would be better if all years were moved to indicate they are years AD or CE (ie. 1984 CE or A.D. 1984, etc) instead of assuming something is a year if its a number (definitively not true for numbers 1000 and less, but the way Wikipedia currently does it) -- 188.8.131.52 (talk) 08:13, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Comment FYI I posted an alert on the relevant project talkpages asking for more opinions. —PermStrump(talk) 04:11, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Orangemike re: "in this unique case, where WP:COMMONNAME has been violated for many years". I was afraid I was going crazy. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. What's going on here? I've never seen it written out and every time I see it spelled out, it still takes a second to click that it's referencing the novel 1984. —PermStrump(talk) 04:28, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
You've seriously never seen it written out? I find that very hard to believe. Seeing "1984" as opposed to "Nineteen Eighty-Four" is actually more ambiguous since no one ever refers to the year as the latter. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:34, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I'm serious! The surprising thing is that this surprises you so much since the print editions of the novel have used the number title for years and the majority of sources writing about it also use the number form.
I don't think it's ambiguous since it's the common name and no one is visiting the year article. Apparently the sources don't think it's ambiguous either or they'd spell it out. —PermStrump(talk) 07:01, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
The results above don't take into account that many (probably most) scholarly articles that use Nineteen Eighty-Four as the title will also include "1984", either in discussing the year, or as the date of publication of a cited source. I don't see how to avoid this, so I think the numbers you give are not useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:46, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Comment if this is successful, we should examine 2001 next, since it is also ab obvious case for the Stanley Kubrick film to be the base article -- 184.108.40.206 (talk) 05:41, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
I was thinking of 2001 too and also 1776, 1776 (book), and 1776 (film). I bet there are a bunch of links to 1776 the year that are supposed to go to the book or movie. I can't think of any books or movies with only a year as the title, but I could be wrong. —PermStrump(talk) 06:34, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Yes, nothing happened in 2001 or 1776 to make them noteworthy. And 1941, which was a yawner, can be moved to that John Belushi film. Or maybe all of them, including '84, can be left as is for awhile. All of this raises interesting quandaries though, about common name versus real name, relative values of topics, etc. Randy Kryn 12:54, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Even though there were hugely noteworthy events on 2001 and 1776, readers have very little interest in those year articles (and year articles in general). —PermStrump(talk) 22:32, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
A random page like 1924, one you wouldn't think of as popular, has a good viewer count of over 100 to 150 or more a day. Year pages have their fans, readers, and editors. Would be interesting if an editor or a high school student would make a chart of views-per-article for all of the 'year' pages, with graphs and trends clearly shown. I'd like to see it, not going to do it. That would be a good project for someone. Randy Kryn 04:33, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Comment I feel I should just point out that I don't believe "1984" to be an incorrect title, and acknowledge that it is also printed with that title - in many numbers apparently, only that it is not the most appropriate title for the Wikipedia article regarding the novel. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Close requested this obviously isn't going to pass. Let the nom resubmit for 1984 (novel). And doesn't look like that would pass either. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
I've removed the latest iteration of "Alternative facts" from the article - again. Just because the hipster community has seen fit to trend the term across the internet does not mean that it is suddenly a requirement for this article. Please justify its inclusion here, before we end up having to protect the article - which would indeed be ironic. Chaheel Riens (talk) 20:26, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree with the removal; we'd need more than a brief burst of news to make these worth including. The article on alternative facts may want to link here but I don't think there's any need to link there from here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:44, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
FWIW - Seems the following edit is relevant, worthy and very well sourced - and should be mentioned in the article - including the lede:
More recently, in January 2017, the novel has again become a best seller book, seemingly in response to apparent attempts by members of the White House staff to present possible misinformation, according to news articles.
Hope this helps in some way - Comments Welcome from other editors of course - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 15:03, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Another editor added mentions in the lede about sales jumping in response to Snowden and the 2013 mass surveillance leaks, and about Buzzfeed's recent activities. I revised this to remove the reference to Buzzfeed, since the sources say nothing about any connection between Buzzfeed and sales of Nineteen Eighty-four, but I've left a brief mention about the 2013 sales surge, since this is mentioned in the sources about the current sales jump. The 2013 surge is also mentioned later in the article, so whether it should be kept in the lede is open for discussion. --Arxiloxos (talk) 20:26, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it belongs in the lead; our coverage should take the long view of what's inherently notable about the novel, and in a few years this will be a minor footnote at best (if no more happens than has happened already). I don't think it belongs in the body either, for the same reason, but I see very little justification for it being in the lead. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:38, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
I do think that the fact that an almost 70-year-old book keeps popping back to the best seller lists and getting substantial new printings is significant information that ought to be included; I agree, though, that detailed data about those sales wouldn't necessarily be material for the lead section. --Arxiloxos (talk) 22:38, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
A few things spring to mind now - I agree that there is now some decent sourcing and references so that it may well have legitimate place in the article. The next question is - where? I don't think that it's worthy of the lede, as per WP:RECENT, but see no reason for it not to stay in the Cultural Impact section, where it is also mentioned. Chaheel Riens (talk) 12:29, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
The general consensus here is that while the "alternative facts" are now suitable for the article itself, they're not for the lede. The alternative facts commentary is based on a single event, which falls under WP:RECENT. An important aspect is that this article is about the entire novel - not just a single aspect of it, which is the doublethink/alternative facts point being made. Given that alternative facts are only a small part of the novel in general - and therefore the article in general, it's not lede-worthy. Chaheel Riens (talk) 13:23, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
Hi. Just wanted to say that I didn't see this discussion. I removed some 'alternative fact' related stuff from the 'In other media' section because it wasn't really about other media and it was already mentioned beneath. Apologies for jumping the gun, feel free to re-introduce it if necessary (after some copy editing please). FWIW, completely agree with it not going anywhere near the lede. Scribolt (talk) 13:44, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
It still has a presence under "Cultural Impact", and I feel that that's good enough - both for coverage, and for the location of the coverage. I was initially against coverage, but that was before it was reasonably sourced. I still think it's a bit recenty and zeitgeisty, but at least it has references and sources now. Chaheel Riens (talk) 15:59, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
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