Talk:Northern bald ibis/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

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Coverage and structure[edit]

Coverage looks good. IMO there's one structure issue - the section "Survival" is a bit of a grab-bag, and I don't see any reason for it to be under "Behaviour":

  •  Done Could the para about ravens, chick starvation and the loss of 40 birds in Morocco go with paras about conservation in Morocco?
  •  Done Could the para about diseases seen in zoos go in "Conservation status", perhaps in a sub-section headed "Zoo populations" or similar?
  •  Done Re lifespan, in invertebrate zoology articles I usually have a heading "Reproduction and life-cycle". If you used that heading for the current section "Breeding" you could slip lifespan in there.
"Breeding" is OK, see below. --Philcha (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review the sections in detail (refs, image copyright, copyediting,etc. ) when we've reached agreement on the structure issue.

BTW I notice you've done all the unit conversions by hand, e.g. 70–80 cm (28–31 in) long. I always use {{convert}} for this, as it handles all the MOS stuff (nbsp; dashes; whether to put period after abbrev unit). And it has range and abbreviation options, so e.g. {{convert|70|-|80|cm|in|abbr=on}} gives 70–80 cm (28–31 in). It looks more to type, but in practice I find that if I use it once I use it several times, so I copy and plug in the right numbers. --Philcha (talk) 10:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Done I've followed your suggestions re breaking up the survival section, although I'm not sure whether it would perhaps read better without the new "Zoo populations" subheading - what do you think?
It works fine for me, since you've connected "Zoo populations" with reintros. --Philcha (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Bird GAs and FAs use "Breeding" as the standard heading for that section, so I'd prefer to stick with the project guidelines. I could live with "Breeding and survival" if preferred.
OK. --Philcha (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done The "convert" template lacks accuracy and sometime gives odd results if figures are close in value. I use FF calculator which also makes repetitive conversions easy.
Go ahead, show me up for a lazy s-o-b :-) Philcha (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
thanks again for taking this on. I aim to send it to FA eventually, so be as tough as you can jimfbleak (talk) 16:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy[edit]

  •  Done I moved "The Northern Bald Ibis's closest relative, and ..." before "The two Geronticus species differ from other ibises ...". What do you think? Do both of the refs at the end of that para cover both of these sentences? --Philcha (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The refs are really for the genus, details - the fact that the two species in the genus are closest relatives is self-evident jimfbleak (talk) 13:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure about that, Linnaeus put everything big with a curved bill into that genus (see Red-billed Chough, but Hoopoe obviously reflects current taxonomy - up to you if you think it's helpful
  • IUCN2008 does not appear to say anything about whether there are 2 sub-species. --Philcha (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suppose it's a negative reference - if it had accepted ssp, you would expect them to be mentioned jimfbleak (talk) 14:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done The etymology is not quite right. γέρων is Greek for "old man", and the stem form on which all the cases and derivative words are based is γεροντ- (ref: Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 1964, entry for "gerontic"). SOED also gives ἐρημία (eremia) as Greek for "desert" ἐρημίτης and for "hermit"(entry for "hermit"). Latin generally transforms the -της ending to -ta but I don't have a Latin textbook around as a cite for that. However SOED gives the lating form as eremita so that part is OK. --Philcha (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm no Greek scholar, I just lifted the etymology from Chambers. I'm not clear what I need to change here jimfbleak (talk) 12:58, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spelling varied then, as with the numerous versions of Shakespeare. I could move the book link to the "Gessner" variant if you think it would be helpful. jimfbleak (talk) 12:58, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair commen tabut spelling. No action needed. --Philcha (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Description[edit]

  •  Done Is "Moroccan and Turkish birds show a marked difference in bill lengths if compared by sex" the same as the dimorphism in "and, as with other colonial ibises, have longer bills"? If so, I suggest something like "In the Moroccan and Turkish populations males have significantly longer bills than females,(ref Siegfried, W.R., 1972), a sexual dimorphism that is common on colonial ibis species.(ref Babbitt et al. 2007) -Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • within each population, males have longer bills than females, but Moroccan birds have significantly longer bill than Turkish birds of the same sex. I've reworded to actually say that jimfbleak (talk) 14:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I've copyedited "The Northern Bald IbisIt gives guttural hrump and high, hoarse hyoh calls ...". --Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done The size stats need refs. --Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's the same source as the following plumage ref, but I've repeated for clarity jimfbleak (talk) 14:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "If the eastern and western populations are considered to be separable subspecies, it is unclear which should be considered to be the nominate form ..." needs its own ref - at present it's just an editor's deduction from the extinction of the population to which Gessner (1551) gave a different(!) name. --Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't find a reliable source, but it's self evident. We can't know what form bred in Switzerland, so we can't know which form Gessner described (his name for it is not really relevant, since definitely NBI) If you think this is open to challenge, it will have to go. jimfbleak (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It assumes that someone thinks they are two sub-species, so a ref is needed. The slight genetic difference is consistent with this, as is the desire of convervationists to avoid mixing. Do the refs for the genetics and / or re-intorduction use the term "sub-species"?
Also this should be in "Taxonomy" if it survives - it would go with what you added about diverging populations. --Philcha (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I've copyedited "by the southernthat species' whitish face" --Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I've copyedited "unlike those of the Glossy Ibis, its feet do not project ...". --Philcha (talk)

Habitat and range[edit]

  •  Done I think use of Marshall Cavendish (2001) as a source is OK for GA but you might get some queries about it in an FA review, since it's an encyclopedia. --Philcha (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done My interpretation of IUCN 2008 is that Oued Tamri has half the Moroccan rather than African breeding population. --Philcha (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same thing, since no longer breed in Algeria, but changed to clarify jimfbleak (talk) 14:58, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done The bit about the Birecik population should say the birds are kept in cages and fed over winter to prevent migration - "a free-flying but non-migratory flock" is uninformative to a non-ornithologist like me. --Philcha (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • changed to Once the wild Turkish population became non-viable, the colony was maintained as a flock which was free-flying for most of the year but caged in autumn to prevent migration.
  •  Done If I'm right in thinking that the "managed" Turkish population is still extant, the first sentence of next para should say "After the demise of the migrant part of the Turkish population ..." instead of "After the demise of the Turkish colony ..." --Philcha (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • After the demise of the migratory Turkish colony...
  • The map is based on the satellite tracking of a group of birds in one season as described in the final sentence. The sources for the sightings in the 1980s and 1990s are in the references - I'll see if the map caption needs changing jimfbleak (talk) 07:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I've copyedited to make "Intensive field surveys in spring 2002 ..." a separate sentence, as it's supported by the cites following the next sentence. Is that OK? --Philcha (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done "and near Oued Tamri north of Agadir, where there is a single colony ..." is a little ambugous about whether the colony is at Agadir or Oued Tamri, and Oued Tamri links to ariver rather than a place. How about "and near the mouth of the river Oued Tamri (north of Agadir), where there is a single colony ..."? --Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The map File:Ibismap 2003.png is not very clear at thumb size. If I were producing it, I'd: give Syria a distinctive colour; blank the country names, use {{Annotated image}} to number them ({{Annotated image}} provides much greater clarity than text embedded in graphics; numbers are needed because Eritrea is too small for a name at this scale), and explain the numbers in the caption. --Philcha (talk) 11:55, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I used an off the peg free map because I lack the skills to do one myself. the whole point of a thumb is that you can click on it for the detail. jimfbleak (talk) 15:13, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Breeding[edit]

  •  Done Re Oates (1902), I prefer to give Google Books URLs only when they provide access to content that supports the statement(s) in the article, as "no preview" links do no more than prove the book exists. --Philcha (talk) 11:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Re Beaky the Bald Ibis, I'm not sure it's WP:RS as it's a kiddies' publication (? Ladybird level 3 ?) and a bit fanciful in places - "Beaky threw it (scorpion) out of the nest in disgust" (and surely mama would have scoffed it herself); "Geonticus (sic) eremetica - such a long, distinguished name". Can you find a better source for first flight? If not, note in the ref that the English version starts half-way down. --Philcha (talk) 11:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No other sources, and although for children, as a Government and University publication, it should be factually accurate jimfbleak (talk) 15:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK for now, might be a problem in FA review. --Philcha (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done "The Northern Bald Ibis is a long-lived species" looks like an unsourced subjective judgement to me. How do you select a yardstick? Blackbirds live about 7 years (personal observation), some parrots for up to 80 (Google for "african grey parrot"). --Philcha (talk) 11:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed
  •  Done A few copyedits, please check that you agree: --Philcha (talk) 11:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "loosely-spaced colonies"
      • I thought -ly shouldn't be followed by a hyphen? jimfbleak (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Buildings have been utilised used for nesting in the past" - you're a Brit, not a Yank :-)
    • W-link & hyphenate Souss-Massa.
    • W-link nest boxes and Birecik.
    • W-link preening.
    • "This species G. eremita" - or "The Northern Bald Ibis", but I think there's no harm in getting readers used to contraction of genus name, as they'll see it all over WP.
    • W-link incubation.
    • W-link British Museum.
    • W-link fledge.
    • "oldest recorded male 37 years, oldest recorded female 30 years".
      • Done

Feeding[edit]

Conservation status[edit]

  •  Done The 2 sentences "It is an Appendix 1 species of CITES ..." and "Appendix 1 lists species that are threatened with extinction and ..." are clumsy - please re-write. --Philcha (talk) 13:10, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a species that is threatened with extinction, it is listed on Appendix 1 of CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora), which means that trade in wild-caught birds is illegal, and may be licensed only in exceptional circumstances. jimfbleak (talk) 07:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • the bit you quoted is taken from IUCN, now referenced. The Oryx article is mainly discussing the 20th century decline jimfbleak (talk) 07:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Probably at least 400 years ago the species split into two distinct populations, which since then have been diverging morphologically, ecologically and genetically; added to taxonomy. Some of the other refs I've seen or I am aware of the contents (the Snow book is a condensed version of Cramp and Simmons), but it's worth doing what you suggest and seeing is anything new is accessible. that will probably have to wait until after GA though. jimfbleak (talk) 08:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wild populations[edit]

  •  Done W-linked steppe and fallows. --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The text in the map is virtually illegible. If you upload a version with no text, I'll use {{Annotated image}} to add text. OTOH I think this image needs no citation of its own as it's just a few uncontroversial locations. --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done W-linked Souss-Massa --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Copyedited "remain the main possibilities for the causeare thought the most likely causes of the deaths", as the previous text was clumsy and a copy from the source. --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done W-linked Palmyra. --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Copyedited "Souss-Massa NPNational Park" --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for copyedits. That's the only version of the map I have. i take your point, but as before, it's a thumb, and perfectly legible when clicked on jimfbleak (talk) 08:11, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All you need to do is download the map (if not already on your hard drive, edit out the text, re-upload under a slightly different name, and post the name here. I'll do the {{Annotated image}} stuff. --Philcha (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reintroductions[edit]

  • No, this is the second (1999) studbook. I put it there to show the significance of choosing the Alpenzoo for the meeting, but I've now moved all the figurees as suggested. jimfbleak (talk) 08:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done When was the International Advisory Group for Northern Bald Ibis (IAGNBI) conference that established guidelines for the conservation and reintroduction of the Northern Bald Ibis? --Philcha (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of microlights is discussed in the Austria bit, the agreement didn't specify a particular method. Other techniques have been used for other species. For example, Whooping Cranes learned by migrating with wild Sandhill Cranes. Conceivably, NBI could learn from, say Cattle Egrets ?jimfbleak (talk) 08:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Zoo populations[edit]

  •  Done See comment above about studbook and European, Japanese & N American zoos. --Philcha (talk) 15:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this is mostly covered in the section or earlier. I'll add start dates if I can find more on the next bit jimfbleak (talk) 08:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done How much is known about the Japanese & N American zoo populations? --Philcha (talk) 15:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing accessible - searches end up here or at the WAZA source jimfbleak (talk) 08:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Europe[edit]

  •  Done "... so the breeding attempt an important landmark for the project" looks like editorialising and I'd scrap it. --Philcha (talk) 15:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not been a problem so far at FA, see Red-billed Chough as an example. Some of the material, particularly for the Turkish population, is not available on English-language sites reliable enough for FAC. jimfbleak (talk) 10:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Morocco[edit]

All looks OK. --Philcha (talk) 15:58, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In culture[edit]

  • thanks, don't know why I formatted that one as I did jimfbleak (talk) 11:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Which ref says Jersey Zoo has a small population? --Philcha (talk) 16:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ref added - I'd seen the paper before, but not used it because the biochemical stuff in it is not of great significance jimfbleak (talk)

Check on links[edit]

The link checker reveals:

  • checkY A couple of 302 redirects, no big deal - both protect subscription content from non-subscribers at JSTOR, but I've never had problems with JSTOR (which I can access). --Philcha (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't see any difference in the addresses
I should get a different URL by Googling for the title - fixed. --Philcha (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Vegetative endocarditis in a Waldrapp ibis has the wrong media type and does not show in FF. The ref already has the DOI, which points to the subscriber-only version. I'd unlink the title and add at the end of a ref "This URL had had technical problems, but may show the full text". --Philcha (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • delinked - not sure why it doesn't work from the reflist jimfbleak (talk) 11:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've just noticed that accessdate= params are missing in all cites that have URLs - they are required (don't ask me why). Format is accessdate=yyyy-mm--dd --Philcha (talk) 00:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright[edit]

  • Not sure why a photo of a 4000 year-old carving can be copyright, but removed anyway jimfbleak (talk) 15:18, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The photo is copyright. --Philcha (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Still to do[edit]

  • Lead, once all changes to the content are complete.
  •  DoneCheck image placement, once all the text is settled. The one in section "Reintroductions" should float right, since when floated left it messes up the bullet-list's indentation and, on a wide-screen monitor, the next section's heading.
  • I've moved images to alternate within a section, starting from right jimfbleak (talk) 15:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Check both at 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratios. A hint - I have a 16:9 wide-screen monitor, and I keep FF's "Restore" size (non-maximised) at full-height 4:3, so I can check how an article looks in both monitor formats.
  • I don't really understand how to do this - do I need to change anything in the layout? jimfbleak (talk) 15:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is your monitor widescreen or "traditional"? The problem with widescreen is that it makes text paras shorter, so ther's more risk that images will cause layout problems by competing for space, running into the next section, etc. I've just checked and it's OK. --Philcha (talk) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Check at standard text size and 3 sizes larger (CTRL+ 3 times in FF). --Philcha (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

I've edited the lead - what do you think of the result? --Philcha (talk) 23:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Done Mention the divergence of the populations.
  •  Done A bit about culture.
  • Generally fine, but I've tweaked the last sentence of para 3 The eastern and western populations have diverged in the 400 years since they became separated, and reintroduction schemes now take care to avoid mixing the two forms.

Very nearly done, I think. Items outstanding are:

  •  Done Refs for the idea of sub-species, or remove all mention of sub-species. As I said, the cited literature about diverging populations and about care not to mix in re-intros might help.
  • nothing accessible, so offending para removed
  • Provide a separate blank version of the map in section "Wild populations" and I'll annotate it.
  • I'll have a think about whether the migration map can be made clearer. I've just looked and there's no better map in Commons, but I think I can use {{Annotated image}} or similar to label the countries.
  • thanks, I'd be grateful for anything you can do jimfbleak (talk) 08:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • removed Israel - I can't access the main text. jimfbleak (talk) 08:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • restored Israel with Serra et al ref jimfbleak (talk) 09:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • accessdate= params for all cites that have URLs. Format is accessdate=yyyy-mm--dd --Philcha (talk) 00:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you point me to the MoS policy for that? I've never given access dates for on-line versions of journals etc in over a dozen FAs (only done so for cite:web template, because content might change) so this must be new jimfbleak (talk) 08:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can't find it in MOS - searching for things in MOS is ridiculously time-consuming, a real problem - but the hits for this Google show that the world and his wife agree that accessdate is required. And reviweres have demanded it in artciles I've submitted. Since I can't identify a specific MOS page, I guess I'd have to pass the artcile without them, but it might turn out to be one of those "more grief at FAC" things. -Philcha (talk) 09:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Annotated images[edit]

Timri
Agadir
Souss-Massa NP
Tiznit
Atlas
foothills
Location map for Moroccan breeding areas

Here's how the Morocco map looks as annotated image. BTW I forgot - what are the rivers? None of the sources here or at Souss-Massa National Park names them. --Philcha (talk) 09:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, that looks better. The southern river is the Oued Massa, and the northern the Oued Souss (Oued means "river"). I've not come across annotated images before, but obviously a good idea jimfbleak (talk) 11:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


BTW I can wikilink the place names, if you think that would help. --Philcha (talk) 10:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'd rather not - some are redlinks, and others linked in text anyway jimfbleak (talk) 11:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1
2
3
4
Tagged birds migrated from Syria (1) via Yemen (2) to Ethiopia (3) and returned via Eritrea (4)

And here's the Middle East migration map. I can't locate Birecik at present because Birecik gives only co-ordinates and Wikimedia Toolserver is currently down for maintenance. If you like the overall effect I'll add Birecik when the map server is up. --Philcha (talk) 10:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, once Toolserver comes up and I can see where Birecik is and whether it's worth adding to the Middle East migration map, I'll paste the Annotated images into the article and and pass it as GA. I've enjoyed the article and it's been a pleasure working with you. --Philcha (talk) 13:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Birecik should be at the top of the green section of the line. Thanks for the kind words and all the effort you've put in to improving the article jimfbleak (talk) 16:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

I think I've more-or-less covered everything, including the blank Morocco map above. I'm just a bit concerned about access dates for journals, since the last time I was at FAC, the trend seemed to be the other way (delinking dates in cite web, and removing dates from on-line versions of real-world journals) Thanks for all the effort you've put in, I sometimes get quick-passed at GA, which is nice, but just leads to more grief at FAC jimfbleak (talk) 08:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]


This article provides good coverage, is well-sourced, well-written and has no image copyright issue that I can see. - so I'm passing it as a GA. Well done!

- - - - - - please post all review comments / responses above this line - - - - - -

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