Talk:Nudity

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The brief bit on Islam[edit]

It mentions here that women in Islam are required to completely cover themselves due to purdah. I may be wrong, but isn't purdah an Indian custom? I agree there are some similarities in custom, but would purdah be the correct appelation? Also, while there are varying degrees to which women (and men) cover, or don't cover themselves in Islamic societies as far as I know the main stipulation based on religion was the Koranic injunction to dress modestly. The specifics as to what this (dressing modestly) means are spread across the multiple interpretations of Islamic law - not to mention those who attempt to go beyond the four (five w/shia) schools. While the article is good enough to mention that the hadith is the inspiration for much of the debate that followed, it would be more appropriate to note that there are many schools of thought regarding awrah. The sentence "For women, Islam requires them to observe purdah, covering their entire bodies, including the face (see burqa). A common misconception, however, is to cover everything but the hands and face," is incorrect in that it is reductionist and makes a POV judgment in regard to schools of thought that may differ from that which the editor had subscribed to. This is not to say the sentence is wholly wrong in that it may fit with a certain view, but it is only one among many. Perhaps, however, it might be wise to separate perceived religious injunctions from how people actually behave. After all, religious and cultural mores are very different between Saudi Arabia and Egypt, yet they are both generally considered Muslim countries. 18 February 2007 jankyalias

Considering the lack of response I am making a slight edit. jankyalias 21 February 2007

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Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2017[edit]

I Woud like to add some pictures Jeromy05 (talk) 19:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Mixed gender sauna[edit]

@Sundayclose: What kind of source do you expect? I certainly won't be linking to all the public sauna facilities in germany that have mixed-gender saunas. That would be in the order of hundreds. In contrast, I haven't found any with strict gender separation (there are some, but that's mostly in spa areas of hotels, where they mostly expect foreign customers). The articles I've linked indicate that gender separation (as well as bathing suits, but that's a different story) are something unexpected in german areas. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 18:40, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

@PaterMcFly: It's not a matter of what kind of source that I, as one editor, expect. It's a matter of what Wikipedia requires. Your dismissive conclusion that the statement is "obvious stuff" does not reflect an understanding of Wikipedia policy. You don't seem to understand how reliable sourcing works. To make the statement, "Gender segregation is more the exception than the rule in modern European sauna facilities" there needs to be a source that actually confirms that. An example of one case of non-gender segregation does not confirm it "as a rule". You also don't seem to understand some of the basic principles of logic. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. If I tell you that there is a teapot between the Earth and Mars that is revolving around the Sun, I can't prove that by telling you I have found no evidence to the contrary. If I write in a Wikipedia article that "most Americans are wealthy" and I cite a source of one wealthy American, how long do you think it would remain in an article? The fact that you can't find something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A very good source would be one that specifically states that "gender segregation is the exception", or (for example) that 85% of saunas do not have gender segregation). We can argue the specifics of how much is required for it to be "the rule" if you find a better source. But so far you have found nothing to support the statement. Sundayclose (talk) 18:58, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
I do very well understand the points you're trying to make and I understand the logic of sourcing. The problem is that it's hard to find sources stating the "normal" case. You will find (as I have shown) sources stating some exception to this normal case and arguments about it. I haven't written the original sentence, I just think it's true because I can't find evidence otherwise. Maybe we should change that to something that says "Mixed-gender saunas are very common in german-speaking countries." or something alike? --PaterMcFly talk contribs 19:29, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, the source does not confirm "very common". I'm not sure what you're missing here. One or two cases does not mean "more the exception than the rule" or "very common". I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but you first removed a legitimate "citation needed" tag simply based on your personal opinion, then you commented that citations are not needed for "obvious stuff", then you tried to source a very bold statement with a very inadequate source. The one part of your comments with which I agree is that you "just think it's true"; I'm glad you can acknowledge that. But adequate sources are required on Wikipedia. Sundayclose (talk) 19:45, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
The source {{cite web|url=https://www.shz.de/lokales/flensburger-tageblatt/geschlechtertrennung-im-dampfbad-id14305831.html%7Ctitle=Sauna-Streit auf höchster Ebene: Geschlechtertrennung im Dampfbad|publisher=Flensburger Tagblatt|accessdate=2017-05-14|date=2016-07-18} at least indirectly states that seggregation caused opposition, which also means that it's unexpected.
Actually, I must have been blind. The reference lies right under my nose: Manfred Scheuch: Nackt; Kulturgeschichte eines Tabus im 20. Jahrhundert; Christian Brandstätter Verlag; Wien 2004; ISBN 3-85498-289-5 Seite 158
I quote: In den Fitnesszentren und Kuranstalten wurde das finnische Bad, oft großzügig ausgestaltet zu ganzen Saunalandschaften, zum selbstverständlichen Angebot. Bemerkenswert ist, dass dort heute zumeist auf getrennte Badezeiten für Männer und Frauen verzichtet wird. Nacktheit von Mann und Frau in der Sauna wird hier längst akzeptiert [...] die seltenen Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel [...]. Verpöhnt ist [...] der Versuch, sich in Badekleidung [...] unter die Nackten zu mischen. (my emphasis) --PaterMcFly talk contribs 20:22, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
The Scheuch source seems acceptable to me to confirm "more the exception than the rule", although your specific quotation does not indicate a geographic location (please confirm that it's all of Europe rather than specific countries if the Wikipedia article states that). But I continue to state that the shz.de source does not confirm what's in the Wikipedia article. Sundayclose (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
The shz source (and some others as well) indicate that the introduction of gender seggregation days is something new, so it's there not the common case. However you're of course right that it's not really suitable as proofing the general claim.
The geographical range of the quote above is not explicitly stated in the book, however he talks about a large raise in the number of available sauna facilities in Germany, Austria and Switzerland within a few years just in the preceeding paragraph. The book in general focuses on these countries. For some reason (which I haven't figured out yet), Sauna culture in Europe follows language boundaries, not political boundaries, so the above statement applies to german-speaking areas (Germany, Austria, the german part of Switzerland, Belgium and South Tyrol). This is confirmed in this article. Some googling seems to confirm that public nude sauna facilities outside this area are rare. What I've found i.e. in the french speaking part of Switzerland under the name of "Sauna" are actually more like brothels. (I haven't got enough evidence on the sauna culture there yet, though) --PaterMcFly talk contribs 20:11, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Again, googling is not a reliable source. And the source you link doesn't confirm that "Sauna culture in Europe follows language boundaries, not political boundaries". Let me suggest that you use only the Scheuch source (as it is the only one so far that clearly confirms anything), and reword to fit the countries named in the source. Sundayclose (talk) 00:31, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
(sorry for slow replies - RL keeps me busy) I was trying to figure out an adequate answer to your question, to where the statement applies. The book mentions germany, switzerland and austria. The link above extends the list to some neighbouring countries and regions. All of them happen to be speaking german or used to be under german influence (or just under the influence of german tourists?). I'm still trying to figure out why exactly this is so, as it is unlikely to be a coincidence. Scheuch states that the sauna came from finland to germany and austria after the second WW, because nazi german soldiers fighted together with finish soldiers (the finish army built Saunas in tents and bunkers). But he does not specify how it further evolved.
I assumed there was some way of giving a map of where which "kind" of sauna culture is most common, but this doesn't seem possible, also because the culture in an area seems to differ between places where tourist go (hotels, spa resorts) and facilities with mostly regular customers (see also the above link). It seems to be getting somewhat arbitrary which culture dominates in areas which speak german but where not under german control in or after WW2 (such as south tyrol or switzerland). I'll be trying to figure out a new wording for the paragraph. --PaterMcFly talk contribs 19:53, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

So, lets try this:

The sauna, originating from Finland, is attended nude in its source country[1] as well as in most Scandinavian and in the German-speaking countries of Europe.[2] This is true even when a swimsuit must be worn in the swimming pool area of the same complex.[1] Saunas are very common in modern Finland, where there is one sauna for every three people[3] and became very popular in the remainder of Europe in recent decades. German soldiers had got to know the finish Saunas during their fight against the Soviet Union in the Continuation War, where Germany and Finland fought on the same side. Finish hygiene dependend so exclusivelly on Saunas, that they had built Saunas not only in mobile tents but even in bunkers.[2]. After the war, the german soldiers brought the habit back to Germany and Austria, where it became popular in the second half of the 20th century.[2] The german sauna culture also became popular in neighbouring contries such as Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg.[4] In contrast to Scandinavia, public Sauna facilities in these countries commonly do not seggregate genders while still keeping the rule of general nudity.[5][4]

One general remark: The articles Sauna and nude swimming also need appropriate updating/sourcing. They should be the main articles on this subject, but their sourcing is very poor (although not contested). --PaterMcFly talk contribs 13:12, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

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  1. ^ a b Nakedness and the Finnish Sauna. Corz.org. Retrieved on 7 October 2011.
  2. ^ a b c Manfred Scheuch: Nackt; Kulturgeschichte eines Tabus im 20. Jahrhundert; Christian Brandstätter Verlag; Wien 2004; ISBN 3-85498-289-5 pages 156ff
  3. ^ Weaver, Fran. (2010-10-08) thisisFINLAND – Seeking the real Finnish Sauna. Finland.fi. Retrieved on 7 October 2011.
  4. ^ a b "Saunakultur und Bekleidungsfrage". die Zeit. 2014-11-18. Retrieved 2017-05-21. Dass Männer und Frauen zusammen splitternackt schwitzen, ist eine deutsche Spezialität, für die sich nur noch Urlauber aus den Benelux-Staaten, aus Österreich und der Schweiz erwärmen können, vielleicht auch noch Osteuropäer. 
  5. ^ Manfred Scheuch: Nackt; Kulturgeschichte eines Tabus im 20. Jahrhundert; Christian Brandstätter Verlag; Wien 2004; ISBN 3-85498-289-5 page 158. Quote: In den Fitnesszentren und Kuranstalten wurde das finnische Bad, oft großzügig ausgestaltet zu ganzen Saunalandschaften, zum selbstverständlichen Angebot. Bemerkenswert ist, dass dort heute zumeist auf getrennte Badezeiten für Männer und Frauen verzichtet wird. Nacktheit von Mann und Frau in der Sauna wird hier längst akzeptiert und das hat ein positives soziales Gesamtklima erzeugt, das selbstregulierend – die seltenen Ausnahmen bestätigen die Regel – das Verhalten der Badegäste bestimmt. Verpöhnt ist [...] der Versuch, sich in Badekleidung [...] unter die Nackten zu mischen.