Talk:Nuthatch

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Untitled[edit]

synonym sittidae, sitta

Potential sources for Asian species[edit]

If you can't access this let me know and I wil email it. Otherwise there doesn't seem to be much for the family. Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, I didn't find this when searching - there's masses on europea and the NAm species, but, as you say, little on the family as such, or the Asian species. jimfbleak (talk) 06:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Other rejects, etymology[edit]

Do you want to mention that the Nuthatch Vanga and the sitellas were once placed in this family? How about that the element -hatch is related to hack through palatalization, like kirk and church, bake and batch, etc.? (I don't have a good source for that.) —JerryFriedman (Talk) 04:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Jerry - I can't believe I kept overlooking the stray treecreeper! I've added the vanga and sitellas as suggested, I can't adequately source the etymology yet jimfbleak (talk) 06:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nuthatch ? Shyamal (talk) 06:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that too -I thought you were in Scandinavia? jimfbleak (talk) 07:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

The GA review is archived. It can be found here. Dr. Cash (talk) 21:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Table[edit]

Are the "onlyinclude" marks needed before and after table. What do they do? Snowman (talk) 09:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

don't know, I put them in because the source I copied the code from had them. jimfbleak (talk) 11:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
It appears to be something to do with templates (see Help:Template). As there are no templates here, I guess that they can be removed. Snowman (talk) 12:43, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Are separate columns needed for the common names and binomial names? It would take up less space on a row if these were in the same column. Snowman (talk) 09:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it could be formatted like List of birds of Fiji. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:45, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Although I have no problem with this in principle, the depth of the rows in this case is dictated by the images, and doing as you suggest would not reduce the overall amount of white space, just move more of it to the wider range column. However, if you want to change the format, please go ahead. jimfbleak (talk) 06:23, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Identification of a Nuthatch[edit]

File uploaded.

Nuthatch in a Japanese set of photos on flickr. Can the species be identified? Snowman (talk) 11:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Any idea of the location? yunnanensis seems close, but quite unsure. Shyamal (talk) 11:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Looks like yunnanensis, but to see this poorly-known species you would need to go to SW China, so location is important 11:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
What about Sitta europea asiatica? Occurs in N. Japan, thin supercilium, white throat and breast, buff wash to lower belly, rear flanks jimfbleak (talk) 12:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
There are few clues to location that I could find. It appears to be in a set of Japanese photos with some from zoos. Snowman (talk) 12:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
As the nuthatch has not been identified with certitude, I have not uploaded it. Snowman (talk) 11:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
S. yunnanensis has a much thicker loral trait (it should be two times bigger) and a more distinct white supercilium. Looks S. europaea amurensis (sometimes called hondoensis in Japan) to me. S. europaea asiatica does occur in North Japan (morphs takatsukasai and clara), but they seem to have fully white underparts. Here some interesting material, whith helpful plates. Totodu74 (talk) 08:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Species table[edit]

Not putting this in the FAC b/c I wouldn't want it to hold the article, and I'm not up to a full FAC commentary. I'm not clear that the table is absolutely necessary, especially given how the images are differing in status and existence (while I agree schematic images are better than no images, I don't think they carry well in this FAC. They also lengthen the table unnecessarily IMHO). Also, it completely obscures the phylogenetic organization of the genus. Finally, I think the list would be better placed as an independent section. Circeus (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The factual data in the table, the species list and range obviously need to be there, so it's the images that are really the issue. The choices are, I suppose, to take them out altogether, reduce size further or move them to a gallery. The first two in effect are the same, and galleries are not popular at fac. At present, there seems to a split view on the list, but if it looks like becoming a pass/fail issue, I'll take them out.jimfbleak (talk) 06:38, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I've put in a heading, and reduced image size, thanks for the typo fix (O, the shame) jimfbleak (talk) 06:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Actually stumbling upon this article, I was so glad that the schematics were there and thought it was a lovely, wonderful idea to include them. Please don't remove them! Calliopejen1 (talk) 04:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, the work mostly done by User:Shyamal jimfbleak (talk) 05:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
The table has been discussed in the FAC discussion. I think that the addition of the "(population if known)" in with the range is a very useful addition to the information contained within the table. Credit for this to User:Jimfbleak for adding the details and to the reviewer who asked about population numbers. Snowman (talk) 08:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency[edit]

The linked species page on the Pygmy Nuthatch (100 mm) seems to say that it is smaller than the Brown-headed nuthatch (105mm), which is reported here the Brown-headed nuthatch is the smallest nuthatch. It may or may not be this article that is incorrect, nevertheless, this inconsistency should be sorted out. Snowman (talk) 14:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Its a genuine discrepancy between good sources, I've modified the wording, please check. Apologies for the outburst on FAC, I'm still not convinced, but at the time I thought you were expecting me to do all the work. I wouldn't withdraw just because Tony has opposed, he always does, and isn't prepared to help either. There are still two support votes, and if it doesn't get through, I won't lose sleep, just get Greater Crested Tern on track instead. jimfbleak (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Copyediting questions from Awadewit[edit]

I'm going to start a list of questions that occur to me as I am copyediting. I'll just keep adding as I go through the article.

  • Nuthatches are all placed in the genus Sitta (Linnaeus, 1758),[1] a name derived from sittē, Ancient Greek for bird - Do we need the Greek letters here?
When I've put them in, I've had demands to take them out - Jim
Ok. As someone who works with words, the script seems important to me, but this is a bird article, not a language article, so perhaps it is less important, eh? Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Nuthatch refers to the propensity of some species to wedge a large insect or seed in a crack and hack at it with their strong bills (hatch is etymologically related to hack).[3] - This is a very unsatisfying explanation. This word goes back to at least 1350 according to the OED. Anymore information on it?
An explanation of the word link through palatalization had to be removed as over technical - I'm not quite sure what you are querying here. Isn't the sources reliable? - Jim
The source is reliable - it just doesn't give as much information as I would like, for example, when the word came into being. Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(hatch is etymologically related to hack and the name of this bird dates from at least the fourteenth century). Any better - I'm a bit out of my depth on etymology? - Jim
Better, yes. Awadewit (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The fossil record for this group is restricted to a foot bone of an early Miocene bird from Bavaria which has been identified as an extinct representative of the Certhioidea clade - Wouldn't this be "ancestor of the Certhioidea clade" rather than "representative"?
I don't know of any evidence that it's ancestral to any other members of the clade - Jim
changed to "member"
  • However, a recent proposed change in this taxonomy is a split of Chestnut-bellied Nuthatch into the Indian Nuthatch Sitta castanea, found south of the Ganges, and Chestnut-bellied Nuthatch sensu strictu, S. cinnamoventris found in the Himalayas - I'm not really sure of the punctuation here, because I'm not really sure which species name goes with what. It's a bit confusing.
I've reworded a bit, A recent proposed change in this taxonomy is a split of Chestnut-bellied Nuthatch into two species, namely the Indian Nuthatch, Sitta castanea, found south of the Ganges, and the Chestnut-bellied Nuthatch sensu strictu, S. cinnamoventris, which occurs in the Himalayas. any clearer?
Yes. Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • This suggestion would move the red- and yellow-billed south Asian species (Velvet-fronted, Yellow-billed and Sulphur-billed Nuthatches) to a new genus - A genus that doesn't exist yet?
I don't know. I can't find anything that names the proposed genera, so they could be newly erected, resurrections of obsolete genera, or some of each. Jim
It is unclear in the article whether they are being moved into a genus that already exists (but is new for them) or a completely new genus - do we know this? Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It can't be an existing and in-use genus, since all the nuthatches are in Sitta, so it can only be either a completely new genus, or a resurrection of an obsolete, and therefore currently empty genus, but I don't even know if there are proposed genus names, so can't resolve this. -Jim
Oh. I was being very dense there, apparently. Awadewit (talk) 17:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • How come some of the birds have more details in the table, such as length?
  • I filled in the descriptions from the other wiki pages. Someone with a Nuthatch book might be able to add the lengths (and perhaps other details) of the other nuthatches and provide a reference. Snowman (talk) 19:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I've completed all the lengths, and populations where known. -Jim
  • There are many instances of "usually", "often", "typically" and the like throughout the article. You might check to see if they are all absolutely necessary. Does each instance indicate an exception? For example, [21] Nuthatches are typically vocal, with an assortment of whistles, trills and calls. - This means that there are nuthatches that are not vocal, too, but they are the exception.
I've been through and trimmed except where removal would change meaning -Jim

More later. Awadewit (talk) 15:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Representatives of the nuthatch family live in most of North America, Europe and through Asia down to the Wallace Line. - "Representatives" sounds a bit odd to me - is this typical language for this topic? I wanted to say "members" or something like that.
done -Jim
  • Most species are resident year-round, the only significant migrant being the Red-breasted Nuthatch, which winters widely across North America, deserting the northernmost parts of its breeding range in Canada. It has been recorded as a vagrant in Bermuda, Iceland and England. - This is confusing - what is the "it" that is a vagrant? The red-breasted nuthatch, the nuthatch itself? We need more clarity here.
I've semicoloned to previous sentence, does that make it clearer that the vagrant is R-b Nuthatch? (I don't want to repeat the species' name if it can be avoided) - Jim
Yes - that clarifies it. Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Nuthatches typically prefer a fairly temperate climate, and most of the species breeding in the more southerly regions of the northern hemisphere are found in cooler highland habitats. - We need to make it clearer what they are doing the rest of the year - they are breeding in in the warner, southerly areas and what in the cooler areas? Living?
reworded that sentence. Nuthatches prefer a fairly temperate climate; northern species occur down to sea level whereas those further south are found in cooler highland habitats. They don't like it too hot, so southern species live in mountains -Jim

Taking a small break. Awadewit (talk) 16:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  • the wings of certain seeds - What are the wings of seeds?
changed to husks, added two refs where fact-tagged, one for each type of lining -Jim
Oh - that makes sense now. Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • This species will also nest in river banks or tree holes and will enlarge its nest hole if necessary - When is it necessary? What prompts the bird to enlarge its nest hole?
changed to ...hole if it is too small. Jim
Makes sense. Awadewit (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Going slowly. Awadewit (talk) 19:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Nearly 12,000 people live in the national park and their fires and traps add to the pressure on the birds. - Is this one national park? If so, can we get its name?
Nearly 12,000 people live in the Natma Taung national park which includes Mount Victoria, and their fires and traps add to the pressure on the nuthatch. The population of the White-browed Nuthatch, estimated at only a few thousand, is decreasing, and no conservation measures are in place.
  • Fire, grazing by livestock, disturbance and erosion have reduced the quality of the habitat - "disturbance" of what? This is a bit vague plus Which national park does the Algerian Nuthatch live in?
Fire, erosion, and grazing and disturbance by livestock have reduced the quality of the habitat, despite its location in the Taza National Park. Jim
  • This is just a personal preference, but I think it would be cooler to have a picture of an endangered nuthatch in the "Status" section than a non-endangered one.
I agree, but there are no free photos of any of those, and the drawings are already used in the table
  • Deforestation has also caused population declines for the vulnerable Yunnan and Yellow-billed Nuthatches. The former species prefers open pine woodland and is better able to cope with tree felling. - Could you link these two sentences together better? I'm not seeing all of the connections? What does it do without the trees, for example?
Deforestation has also caused population declines for the vulnerable Yunnan and Yellow-billed Nuthatches. The Yunnan Nuthatch can cope with some tree loss, since it prefers open pine woodland, but, although still locally common, it has disappeared from several of the areas in which it was recorded in the early 20th century - jim
  • A law promoting tourism came into force in Turkey in 2003, further exacerbating the threats to the habitat: it reduced bureaucracy and made it much easier to establish tourism facilities - This should be explicitly tied back to the destruction of the environment. It is a little vague right now.
Krüper's Nuthatch is threatened by urbanisation and development in and around mature coniferous forests, particularly in the Mediterranean coastal areas where the species was once numerous. A law promoting tourism came into force in Turkey in 2003, further exacerbating the threats to the habitat. This law reduced planning bureaucracy and made it much easier for developers to build tourism facilities and summer houses in the coastal zone where woodland loss is a growing problem for the nuthatch. - Jim

Done with questions! Awadewit (talk) 14:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for the time you've put in to improving this article jimfbleak (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Not a problem. I will give it one more pass later today. Awadewit (talk) 17:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

new classification[edit]

  • according to IOC World Bird Names, shouldn't we add those new species to table as some of the split ones as Sitta cinnamoventris already added?
    Siberian Nuthatch Sitta arctica split from S. europaea (Zink et al. 2006, Red’kin & Konovalova 2006, Collar 2007)
    Burmese Nuthatch Sitta neglecta split from S. castanea (Rasmussen & Anderton 2005)
    Przevalski's Nuthatch Sitta przewalskii split from S. leucopsis (Rasmussen & Anderton 2005) --Mskyrider (talk) 15:14, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

I've reinstated the merge request as per the discussion at WP:Bird; with the removal of Wallcreeper, these two pages now cover the same topic. SP-KP (talk) 19:55, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree and given that this is a FA and the other merely a start there won't be much to merge here. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:18, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


Perhaps premature to merge, given the possibility that Sittidae will come to include Salpornis. Johansson, U.S., J. Fjeldså, and C.K. Bowie (2008b), Phylogenetic relationships within Passerida (Aves: Passeriformes): A review and a new molecular phylogeny based on three nuclear intron markers, Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 48, 858-876.24.70.51.0 (talk) 19:22, 21 March 2012 (UTC)