|WikiProject Ireland||(Rated C-class, Top-importance)|
- 1 Battle of St. George's Caye
- 2 Ona the ArchDruid and O'Neill?
- 3 need one
- 4 Red hand incorrectly depicted
- 5 O'Neill dynasty
- 6 Concerned At Political Nature of Article
- 7 Sources
- 8 Y-DNA
- 9 Coat of arms
- 10 Caribbean O'Neill?
- 11 Counts of Tyrone
- 12 Baron O'Neill (of Shane's Castle)
- 13 The Spanish claim to the Irish title is clouded
- 14 Benjamin Thomas O'Neill
Battle of St. George's Caye
There's a link to this at the bottom of the page. It redirects to a battle in belize between mexico and the natives. I don't see how it applies and I'm not sure what it's supposed to refer to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:05, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Ona the ArchDruid and O'Neill?
I am seeking some expertise. I had this entry on the dab page Ona:
- Ona the ArchDruid, great grandson of Brion, half-brother of Niall Noigíallach, High King of Ireland about 400AD, see O'Neill (surname)
So it seems to claim a historical/mythological figure and imply a connection with the surname "O'Neill", but none of the articles it mentions is reciprocating, and Wikipedia seems the only place on Google to mention it. I have no idea if this comes from Original Research or actual but obscure stuff. It's only mentionned in the same vein at Ó Maoilmhichil and Pro Aris et Focis.
For now I'm shrinking it to a link to an article that does mention him (though it could be bogus and from the same source):
Red hand incorrectly depicted
The article describes the arms as involving a device "supporting or holding a right hand palmed in pale red supporting or holding a right hand palmed in pale red" while the arms as depicted show a left hand. I believe that there is an order of chivalry within the British system that uses a left rather than a right hand for the red hand of Ulster, and this may be a source of the error.
The earliest arms shows a left hand, the right hand is simply more common in heraldry, so it is not irrational that this error has occurred over the years. The red left hand is used as a symbol of baronetcy in Ireland because of the High King's use of the red left hand. See baronet. 12:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I think we've got more than enough 'dynasty' articles. Maybe we should try an combine some of them together. The Ó Neill Dynasty Today article, i think, could easily be placed within this one. The merge tag has been on there for over a year.
Ó Neill Dynasty Todayredirected and merged into O'Neill dynasty
- O'Neill dynasty focal point currently under construction
O'Neill Dynastyre-directed to O'Neill dynasty O'Neill of Clannaboyredirected and merged into O'Neill dynasty O'Neills of Puerto Ricoredirected and merged into O'Neill dynasty
- Southern Uí Néill
Uí Néillinformation taken from page, but shall be left to stand on its own
- Uí Néill descendants
- Well the Uí Néill include several more dynasties and separate kingdoms, for example the rival O'Donnell of Tyrconnell, so we can't merge those. But anything and everything to do with the O'Neill (Ó Néill) dynasty should ideally be in one article, namely this one, probably including Kings of Tír Eógain. Then we already have O'Neill and O'Neill (surname) for the lists. DinDraithou (talk) 14:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
I linked all the spelling variations of O'Neill to either the O'Neill (disambiguation) page or to the O'Neill (surname) page and combined their information on the resulting pages. I saw no point to have an O'Neal page and O'Neil page and so on that pasted the information in the O'Neill article. For a person searching by surname, he would have to search every single spelling variation if they did not know the specific spelling off hand. Still, the O'Neill (surname) page is lacking, perhaps the various articles on different O'Neill branches could be added to the surname page to expand the history. 04:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think it'd be much simpler if the surname page just dealt with the surname. The history of the clan/family, and heraldry and the like, should stay on an article devoted to it (like this one). I think the surname article should just deal with the surname (the etymology and statistics, a simple list, etc.). No need to have duplicate articles when you can switch to another in a single mouse-click.--Breandán MacAmhlaidh (talk) 04:24, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it only takes one click to get to a new page, but with all the numerous O’Neill pages, you will be searching through a circular maze of similarly named articles. The O’Neill dynasty today discusses the Clanaboy branch in detail, while the Clanaboy article has just a couple of sentences. The O’Neill dynasty page here lacks any information of any dynasty. While there is a distinction to the branches that the familiar may know, the unfamiliar will have quite the hassle to find the appropriate information in the maze of links. So, if the different branches are all combined on the surname page, and the only reason I suggest hat is because people researching a family history most likely will only type in the surname and not O’Neill clan or O’Neill dynasty because they will not yet be aware of a clan or dynasty, it will cease the duplicate information being researched for the competing and poorly written articles and allow a combined effort to create a really good and singular article. So that typing in either O’Neill, O’Neil or O’Neal will then link to one articulate page that can inform completely of the different branches of the families.22:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is what disambiguation pages are for, and O'Neill is actually that at the bottom.
- Elsewhere, even more information on the dynasty, and very current, can be found at Count of Tyrone, recreated with modifications by the Vatican in 2006. Ireland's most royal and most powerful dynasty is almost as disorganised as the modern House of Bourbon. If they had any sense they would strategically intermarry their branches and begin producing claimants to the High Kingship of Ireland. The O'Neill dynasty is the successor of Cenél nEógain and since the Southern Uí Néill no longer exist their only opposition is the O'Conor Don, with whom they could surely reach an arrangement if the Irish government is ever willing to listen in the future. The High Kingship used to be rotated anyway. The O'Briens would have remained contenders themselves but they are now widely disliked, perhaps undeservedly. DinDraithou (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- Xanderliptak, O'Neill is the hub for all things O'Neill. That's where we need to clear things up. Note that the surname page was daughtered from that to unload the massive list of names (which is even bigger now since you've added different variations). If someone is interested in family history we need to forward them from O'Neill to here, not O'Neill (surname) which is just the list of people and a general blurb on the surname. So if we make it clear on the hub one is for the surname, another for family/history, we should be ok. Think about it, when you type O'Neill and press enter, you don't just automatically find yourself at O'Neill (surname) out of the blue.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:33, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK as of now, we've got the hub showing the surname and family articles inside one subsection. It ought to be easier for peeps to navigate to the appropriate articles.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:43, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
My apologies, I was simply trying to begin creating an article that would include all the information on the different branches, and figured the surname page would be a persons first stop without having people try to figure out which branch, dynasty or spelling variation they needed for best results. My maternal grandmother is an O'Neill, and I was hoping to map out some early history of the family for her, and found it quite difficult to navigate amongst the numerous pages, which often repeated the same information, to find anything of value.09:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- It gets more interesting. There are several Scottish clans, three of them with chiefs, who claim descent from Anrothan O'Neill, an 11th century King of Ailech. Thus we must responsibly include in the expanded article mentions of Clan Maclachlan (among my Scottish ancestors), Clan MacNeill (who need details in their article rewritten), Clan Lamont, Clan MacEwen and of course the enigmatic Clan Sweeney. In addition to these, the Irish McLaughlins are closely related to the O'Neills, belonging to the same dynasty (Cenél nEógain), and contributed some High Kings themselves (Domnall Ua Lochlainn and Muirchertach Mac Lochlainn). They are commonly thought to be of the same lineage as the Scottish Maclachlans but in fact the two meet among the O'Neills. DinDraithou (talk) 14:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have begun merging and redirecting hte articles. It will be choppy for a bit, but please bear with me and avoiding reverting because of the cut and paste feel. It is a lot of mateial to merge, and I wanted to begin by having it under one article and sorting through it that way. 22:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Concerned At Political Nature of Article
The O'Neill families exist today. Unsurprisingly they have political views - don't we all ? But these views seem to have crept into this article. Some pointers for extending this:
(1) There is a very good pre-mediaeval and early mediaeval family tree for the O'Neills derived from Celtic manuscripts. This is one of the oldest and best-attested pedigrees in Europe. The article should cite this direct. The current text makes it sound more obscure than it is.
(2) For more modern O'Neills, the article is full of those that remained Catholic and fled Ireland between 1600 and 1800, but fails to mention those who stayed.
(3) Some of those who stayed converted to Protestantism. There were O'Neills on both sides at the Battle of the Boyne.
(4) There are several currently existing landed families in Ulster who are O'Neills, and have (British) noble titles. There seems no reason (bigotry apart) to ignore these descendants of the pre-1600 O'Neills. Copious details can be found in Burke's Peerage. Terence O'Neill (Prime Minister of Northern Ireland in 1960s) is one of them.
(5) There is an arm of the O'Neill family of Clandeboye that went to Virginia in the early 1700s which is ignored here.
(6) The section on Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill is too short - he is easy to contact, sociable and full of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthuredwardo'neill (talk • contribs) 15:30, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for this contribution and feel welcome to make these changes to the article, and many others. It was put together from several smaller articles scattered around Wikipedia by the editor responsible for the arms, but neither he nor I have specialist knowledge of the O'Neill dynasty. This is why I tagged the article. There are specialist/family editors who have visited Count of Tyrone but they have yet to make changes here. The O'Donnell dynasty have also received attention from specialists/family.
- I will myself add sometime today a basic infobox which anyone will be able to augment with whatever information and titles should be there. DinDraithou (talk) 16:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- I am an active poster on O'Neill history and was asked to come and update and expand the history here. I have put in a great deal and taken some of the legitimate criticism posted here. I will continue to expand but hope we are off to a better start. Princeton03 May 16, 2011
The sources section seriously needs overhauled to make it acceptable. Inline citations i think should be used for most claims in the article to ensure they are even from a reliable verifiable source. Also each source should have more details added into it especially its ISBN or website that links to it - otherwise the whole thing is dubious in its present format.
Infact most of this article needs rewritten. Other parts that leave out important details is the Clandeboye section which fails to state and elaborate the close relationship the Clandeboye O'Neills had with the Normans. It also leaves out the long history of treachery exhibited by the O'Neills throughout history. Both sides of the story must be told! Northern Star (talk) 21:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think there is, among the sources at the bottom and at Count of Tyrone. The dynasty is by far Ireland's largest and most immensely complicated. It is so big it is virtually a kingdom in itself. DinDraithou (talk) 16:04, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Currently in Rome, we met a descendant of the O'Neill's whom we assisted in locating the burial place of Hugh O'Neill in the Church of San Pietro in Montorio .. we had them move the blue carpet aside and photographed the stones laid into the floor.. the Red hand forms part of the crest above the door of the church..the church is part of the Espana building complex on top of the hill near Via Garibaldi in Trastevere
No mention of the y-dna Haplotypes and Haplogroups of the O'Neill's. There is a particular haplotype for a mayority of the O'Neill which is R1b1b2a1b , then there is another mayor group that is of the Haplogroup I2b1a and the final groups are R1b1b2a1b5b and R1b1b2a1b5. Only O'Neill's descendants from O'Neill's who served the Spanish crown in the 1600's who have been tested are the O'Neill's of Puerto Rico with their progenitor being Don Juan O'Neill circa 1700's his y-dna is from the Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a4 of a Germanic origin with a uncommon haplotype with the value of YCA II b 21 which seems to be found among a family in Hungaria from Swabia ancient homeland of the Seuvi, and a few others in Romania etc. Y-dna of the O'Neill's should be dicussed. Redhandking (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Coat of arms
The Carribean is full of islands the O'Neill's of Puerto Rico are from the island of Mallorca , Belaric Islands via the Spanish Netherlands. (With a distinct y-dna haplotype not found among anyother families in the world experts say it's due to the progenitor of this bloood line having only a few males or other families have not been tested yet.) The O'Neill's of the Fews settled in St.Croix via Spain and later in Puerto Rico the 1st were Don Enrique O'Neill O'Kelly and Don Tulio O'Neill O'Kelly in 1784.
There are records and information only found by family like diaries and letters etc. that are not published and will likely be not. The O'Neill's who lived in these islands were very elusive and many things that are recorded by outsiders are not corret. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redhandking (talk • contribs) 19:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
More should be disccused on the O'Neill's soldiers in the Caribbean and South America no mentioned of O'Neill's of clannabuidhe who immigrated to Brazil. Not much said on the O'Neill's of the Fews and Tyrone on their sugar plantations in the Caribbean. Redhandking (talk) 20:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about that. While this is notable information it is outside the realm of the major dynasts, and it is outside of Europe. DinDraithou (talk) 20:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
What does Europe has to do with anything? Last time i checked to be a O'Neill you had to be born in Europe or Co. Tyrone? what matters is that these O'Neill's are from a bloodline of the Clannabiudhe, of the Fews and possibly Tyrone. Born in Europe or not! To many from my experiences is really has to do with a racial perception of what many think a O'Neill should look like. That is why many valuable info i do not share and keep from outsiders. Those Counts of Tyrone and O'Neill's of the Fews were born in the Caribbean and Spain and they obtained titles of nobility from the Spanish crown and French monarchy by being soldiers and business men mainly is the sugar plantations. These were in Spanish and French territories outside the Clannabiudhe from Portugal. Redhandking (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- To go extensively into the history of the O'Neills in the Caribbean is simply not the purpose of this article. And while I am sympathetic, I don't believe you have the proper arrangement of your material for writing one at Wikipedia. I'm sure your information is valuable so you should share it with O'Neill historians, who can then produce a nice readable story. So in other words, not yet. Without a coherent account we will have to wait. DinDraithou (talk) 21:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I understand about going into the details of the O'Neill's in the Caribbean i simply stated that the military service and their business holdings in the Caribbean is a reason why these O'Neill's obtained Nobel titles from the Spanish crown mainly and it should be noted and explained without there military service and plantation holdings in the Caribbean the O'Neill's of the Fews would have not held certain titles of nobility. Also , the O'Neill's of Tyrone and their dealings with the sugar plantations was a big reason why they obtained certain powers. I see this hard since all info mainly is those found and written in English and the O'Neill influnece in the Caribbean has been ignored until recently many in Ireland believed the O'Neill's of the Fews ancestors were born all in Spain which is simply not the case. These O'Neill's of Tyrone and of the Fews were a different breed of men very different from what many believe who were all over the Caribbean in service of the Spanish and French crown in constant wars ect. I myself being a descendant of one of these men and done extensive research and i believe anyone who wants to write about the O'Neill's Dynasty the Caribbean like Spain , the Spanish Netherlands are very important in thier long history . Redhandking (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Counts of Tyrone
No mention of the sons living in Palma de Mallorca, no mentioned of the other sons of Hugh O'Neill he is recorded to have had another illegitimate son named Conn but this could be a a grandson or a relative Don Hugo O'Neill took under his care. In Mallorca where Don Juan / John O'Neill son of Hugh O'Neill there are intersting statements that Don Juan O'Neill had a brother named Terencio ( Turlagh) who died without issue. But it's not known that this was his true bother. Redhandking (talk) 20:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Baron O'Neill (of Shane's Castle)
Here's a query for you all: Should this article not make reference to Baron O'Neill - but in the sense of mentioning that this line is NOT part of the O'Neill dynasty, and not of original O'Neill patrilineal descent at all? I notice from Debrett's that the Baron's arms has (the temerity to include?) two quarterings of the arms of the O'Neills of Clanaboy and the Fews (and the motto: Lamh Dearg Eirin (the Red Hand of Ireland). Baron O’Neill of Shane’s Castle, County Antrim descends (as his wiki-article says, which I have just further ref'd) – in the male line – not from an Irish O’Neill, but from Rev. William Chichester. This William Chichester succeeded his cousin Earl O’Neill (Debrett's says "Earl", but the wiki article says Viscount??) in 1855, but as the latter’s title went extinct on his death, Chichester changed his name to O’Neill by royal license in 1855 so that he could inherit land belonging to an O’Neill cousin, and in 1868 was made Baron O’Neill, of Shane’s Castle. By the way, this O'Neill dynasty article is full of unsourced statements, and could benefit from many more inline citations. Tricky (talk) 12:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- It absolutely needs a huge amount of work. Concerning the Barons O'Neill, they once featured prominently in the Wiki article as almost legitimate members of the Clanaboy dynasty. I had problems with that and removed all of it. They seem like nice enough people from what I have read and I actually feel sorry for the modern family. An ancestor did this bizarre thing and now they have to suffer. But they appear to be making the best of it and participate extensively with the legitimate family, even hosting events. DinDraithou (talk) 04:30, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
The Spanish claim to the Irish title is clouded
The inheritance laws of Spain and Ireland differ from each other. The current Spanish claimant to the Irish title treats it as one of his Spanish titles. His acceptance by O'Neills resident in Ireland is because other claimants have not stepped forward. Another member of the O'Neill of Fews family could potentially put forward as good a claim. RichardBond (talk) 20:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Benjamin Thomas O'Neill
I am Benjamin Thomas O'Neill. I am a descendant of the O'Neill dynasty. My g-g-g grandfather moved from Clonaslee to Durham England in 1871/2 with his children (his daughter Bridget was my ancestor. Well done for the tremendous article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 10:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC)