|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Occitan language article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Status of the language: language or languages?
- 2 Deleted sentence
- 3 Romanian list
- 4 English words on chart
- 5 Ligurian in the Var ?
- 6 24 000 Hz range
- 7 Oïl languages
- 8 Important!
- 9 Occitan and Catalan.
- 10 does anyone have a photo of an Occitan street sign?
- 11 Occitan and Catalan, again
- 12 Gallo-Romance or Ibero-Romance?
- 13 Requested Move (2006)
- 14 Concerning the move
- 15 Not encyclopedic statement
- 16 Orthographic norms
- 17 Gallo-Romance language >>> Occitan language
- 18 Poitiers
- 19 Destroy 200 Years of Culture
- 20 Categorization
- 21 Occitan language in Monaco
- 22 audio
- 23 Sentence in the Lourdes statue
- 24 Some small changes in Occitan phonology...
- 25 Requested move (2008)
- 26 English language
- 27 First map on page
- 28 typo in Gascon sample?
- 29 Tributary, etc.
- 30 Written Occitan is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language
- 31 Occitano-Romance linguistic group
- 32 Oil/Oc/Si
- 33 Addition to Occitan-speaking communities
- 34 Table of linguistic comparisons
- 35 Virgin Mary Statue Pic
- 36 Langues d'oc and catalan
Status of the language: language or languages?
I have removed from the article the statement that languages are differentiated on the basis of mutual intelligibility - this cannot be backed up!
We could list many dialects which are perfectly, or to a large extent, mutually intelligible (or to be more accurate, dialects which form unbroken continua of intelligibility) but which are divided for political reasons into dialects - and just as easily, many 'languages' which are actually a plethora of vastly diverse dialects. I put just a few examples in the article.
In addition, it's impossible to decide which languages are mutually intelligible and which aren't - this isn't a yes/no issue. Spanish and Italian are mutually intelligible to some extent. To a Portuguese person, Castilian (Spanish) is perfectly understandable, but to a Spaniard, Portuguese is only intelligible to a limited extent. Catalans and Portuguese understand each other suprisingly well, however. Add to this that none of these languages is totally unified, but each form patchworks of dialects - how can we decide which are 'mutually intelligible' and which aren't in this mess? (This is also why I don't think it's fair to say that intelligibility between Occitan dialects is higher than between Occitan and Catalan - which dialects of Catalan and Occitan do you mean? The intelligibility between Provençal and Gascon is fairly low, whereas the intelligibility between southern Lengadocian and northern Catalan is fairly high - though it would be easy to find examples to the contrary.)
Kieron a m 16:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
(edit: oops forgot to sign, sorry ^_^ )
We cannot define if spoken varieties are separated languages or mere dialects of the same language only because they are mutually intelligible. This is a sociolinguistic question, not a pure linguistic one. Various german or arabic dialects are barely intelligible to each other's speakers and are considered varieties of the same language. At the same time Norwegian, Swedish and Danish (or for that matter Portuguese and Galician or Spanish) are largely mutually intelligible but considered to be different languages.
According to this article, Occitan is an artificial construct with virtually no social base. In Provence, for instance, most of the speakers consider Provencal to be a language of its own, different from Languedocian, Gascon, Auvergnian and Limousin:
- Then we are in agreement ^_^ kieron 11:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Sabiai pas que la pagina occitana de Wikipedia existissia.Cresiai que la lenga occitana era desbrembada e me regausissi donc de la descobrir. Comencèri de ne redigir una(Lupus Aquitanus) mas me maini que, fin'finala, es pas gaire necessari d'o far e qu'aquesta pagina esperava sonque de se balhar un contengut. Soi uros, benastruc, d'aver descobert aqueste siti enciclopedic.
Se i a de mond que s'alegran a parlar e escriure la lenga nòstra, aquò m'agradarà que jamai pus d'escambiar amb els e elas, de parlar de tot en occitan, e d'aprene de contunh , e pas sonque d'occitan( d'articles d'antròpologia, de botanica, de chinés e que te sabi mai, mas en occitan...).
A leu donc, e al còp que ven sul Wikepedia occitan
Lop l'Aquitan Lupus Aquitanus(Lupus, Lop paire d'Euda ,duc e primièr prince d'Aquitania).Lupus demorarà un siti a basa d'occitan ma s'avodarà puslèu a l'Aquitania.
P.S Benastrugui los qu'an creat aqueste projècte d'enciclòpedia respectuosa de la diversitat. Aprene e difusir dins la lenga d'una part dels mieus aujèols m'agrada.
Per avança mercés al mèstre de la tèla de m'aver assabentat sus l'existencia de l'interfacia occitana de Tarquin.
A perpaus,voldriai volentièr contribuïr amb d'autres a la concepcion del Oiquipedia occitan , mas cossi far per capitar lo prètzfach d'obtener de polidas paginas sul siti, sabi pas trèop plan utilizar l'utis encara?
En vacancas fins al 21/08/2003
Occitan is an Ibero-Romance language, isn't it? I know French and Spanish and I hope I can contribute... It is not very difficult for me to understand the gist of the Occitan so I'll summarize: "I didn't know the Occitan Wikipedia page existed. I thought that the language had been dissolved, and I didn't expect to find one..... ....I want to contribute to the Occitan version of the site" (Sorry for my incompletion)
- hi. I'm afraid nobody speaks occitan here. Could you write in english (or in french -- we can talk on the french wikipedia). is this about help setting up the Occitan Wikipedia? or does it say "if you can read this, go help with the occitan wikipedia"? -- Tarquin 21:03 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I wonder if that line at the end means "I'm on vacation till August 21, 2003." -- ESP 23:26 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I'm almost sure -- Error 03:29, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The following are translations of "Occitan" into several languages. In my understanding of interlanguage links, you only link to existing pages. It is not intended as a multilanguage dictionary. So I left only those links to existing pages with some information.
af:Occitaans ar:الأوكسيتانية az:Oksitanca be:Правансальская bh:oseetan bs:oksitanski ca:Occità cs:okcitánština cy:ocitan da:occitansk el:Οσιτανικά eo:Okcitana es:Occitano eu:Okzitaniera fa:فرانسوی fi:oksitaani fr:occitan fy:Oksitaansk ga:Ocatáinis gl:occitano hu:Okcitán ia:occitano id:Occit it:Occitano ja:オック語 la:Aquitana lt:provansalų lv:ocitāņu mk:Окситански nl:Occitaans no:provençalsk oc:occitan pl:Prowansalski pt:Occitano ru:Окситанский sk:ocitánčine sl:ocitanščina sq:Oksitanisht sr:oksitanski su:Ossita sv:occitanska sw:Kiositani te:Occitanu th:ภาษาออกซิตัน uz:Oksitan tilida zh:歐西坦語 zu:Isi-Osithani
Why is this warning at the bottom of the page:
(The views presented on this site are contrary to the opinion of the vast majority of linguists.)
It does not say which views specifically are against common scholarly opinion. If no one can make it clearer then I'll remove it. Kricxjo 03:02, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Ericd', I don't appreciate you moving the mention of Dante and then changing "Provencal" to "Occitan". According to virtually every critical apparatus on Purgatorio, the language which Dante puts in Arnaut's mouth is Provencal. Similarly, the language in which Arnaut composed his love poetry is specfically Provencal. By taking the mention of Dante out of Provencal and putting it here, you are contradicting centuries of Dantean study by people much more qualified in the matter than any of us. Kricxjo 14:25, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
About Dante I'm not sure to be right but see my comment on the talk page for Provencal. The use of Provencal for Langue d'Oc seems to be common in English. I'll try to have a look at some study of Dante in French. Ericd 20:04, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
languedocien, auvergnat, limousin, gascon and provençal are dialects of occitan and not languages. [Gnu_thomas]
- Unfortunately, there is debate on that issue. Many English-language and Italian-language resources treat Provencal as separate from Occitan. Seeing as some dialects of Provencal are not mutually intelligible to speakers from, for example, Toulouse, that's IMHO valid. Kricxjo 14:49, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- for the IEO (institut d'estudis occitans) which can be considered as the "académie française" for the occitan, occitan is a set of dialects inter-intelligible. There are also errors on the specific dialects page. The dialect the closest of old occitan used by trobadors is the languedocien not the provençal. The limit of the limousin doesn't correspond to the limit of the adminstrative region, as reader can understand seeing the map. [Gnu_thomas]
- About language versus dialects : This inter-intelligibillity thing is the typical exemple of a case where human sciences classifications have problem to deal with real life. Inter-intelligibillity is not a binary notion a large number or language are more or less inter-intelligible. For instance I'm a French speaker and can understand a few Italian or Spanish without having learned them....
- Ericd 18:51, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The discussion of the Latin origins of Romance language names for "yes" seems to be incorrect; the Latin word from which "si" and similar Romance language words for "yes" is derived is "sic" (thus, so), not "si" (if, whether). Right?
-- Seth Schoen (not registered on Wikipedia)
This sentence contradicts those prior to it. It is my understading that "Occitania" is derived from "Occitan" and not the other way around. Also, the area some call Occitania is much larger than Auquitain. Nathan 02:33, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
Note that Romanian branza is not from caseus (branza is considered to be a pre-Roman Dacian word). But Latin caseus does survive in Romanian as caş, which did evolve from Latin caseus. Romanian biserica is from Latin basilica. Latin ecclesia was not transmitted into the Eastern Romance languages. Both ecclesia (>ekklesia), and basilica (>basilike) entered Latin from Greek. Alexander 007 01:34, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Romanian equivalents in the chart are all correct as of now. Alexander 007 01:29, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
English words on chart
In case anybody was wondering, English plaza is borrowed from Spanish; English cheese is from Old English cese, from Germanic kasjus, which was an early borrowing from Latin caseus; English language was borrowed from Old French langage, which is from Latin lingua. The rest of the English words are unLatin. Alexander 007 00:52, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Shouldn't sing be replaced with chant? Also, the note below the chart indicates that French has no equivalent to record -- yet battre un record (beat/set an athletic record, for example) is commonly said and is semantically related, no? --anon
- The Romance words mean "sing", although the borrowed word "chant" is a more related cognate. Btw, it seems unclear if the word "jump" comes from Occitan, or if it has a different etymology...
- I'd actually like to know the source giving the Occitan etymology of these words. For example, here are the etymologies the O.E.D. gives:
- jump [A word of mod. Eng., known only from c1500; app. of onomatopic origin: cf. bump, etc. Words app. parallel are MHG. and dial. Ger. gumpen to jump, hop, Da. gumpe, Sw. dial. gumpa, Sw. guppa to move up and down, Icel. goppa to skip; but it does not appear how the 16th c. Eng. jump could be historically or phonetically related to these.]
- rave [? a. OF. raver, app. a variant (of rare occurrence) of rêver to dream, be delirious, etc., of obscure origin: for conjectures, see Diez (s.v. rêve) and Körting (s.v. rabia).]
- record [a. OF. record (recort, recor-s, etc.), f. recorder to RECORD. Cf. Sp. recuerdo, It. ricordo. The original stressing (rI'kO:d) is found in verse as late as the 19th c.]
- The fact that "record" exists in Occitan and English but not in French does not seem interesting unless Occitan is the only language that kept it. But, as it is, both Spanish and Italian (and probably others) have a form of the word record, all from the Latin recordare. I'm going to take out this sentence, unless someone strongly objects. It would be interesting to list words (which I'm sure exist) that can be traced to Occitan. I will look into that. Lesgles 22:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Ligurian in the Var ?
Where is Ligurian spoken in the Var ? Ericd 00:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
24 000 Hz range
During the middle ages, there was a state where now exists catalonia. In this state, the official language was catalan. As well as in the kingdoms of mallorca and valencia. In fact, until 1714 spanish castillian wasn't an oficial language in catalonia. I supose that you are a bit confuse and you think that the crown of aragon was the same as the kingdom of aragon.
The ancient Crown of Aragon could be compared to some sort of federal state as well as most medieval kingdoms -all Iberic ancient kingdoms were of that kind. Nowadays there's a strong effort from some Catalan nationalists to base their political positions on a partial vision of Catalonia and Aragon history. There´s no sense in talking about official languages in Spain before 19th century and Castillian, also known as Spanish abroad, was already a known but minoritary language in Catalonia and Aragon from 13th century.
BTW there are no reasons but historical and political ones to say Catalan is not an Occitan variant since it´s closer to Provençal and Nord-Occitan than Gascon.
- Catalan has different diphtongs, it hasn't got the phoneme /y/ and conversions from some Latin consonants to Catalan vowels have evolved differently. Those differences basically are enough to argument Catalan as separate from Occitan, besides the fact that a Catalan speaker has a very hard time understanding spoken Occitan (even Provençal) and vice versa...
Many users do not realize (or frequently forget, such as I) that Wikipedia searchs are case sensitive. This creates confusion between OC and Oc. The redirect should link to OC, the disambiguation page, which I have edited to include this article.
Occitan and Catalan.
We must consider that what today is called standard Catalan phonology, is just the dialect from Barcelona, and the standard ortography is a modern invention designed more to stress the differences with other surrounding dialects for political reasons than to reflect the real use after philological facts. Claiming that Catalan is something different than Occitan, is the same as, if U.S. Govenrnment reforms completely the U.S. English ortography in order to make it look different, chooses a peculiar dialectal area to base the unified phonology in and promotes the most uncommon and non extended words, trying to erase the common ones from the normal speech and pretends that USA has a completely different language of its own. Why not choosing texts prior to the make up of this so-called Catalan and Occitan texts of the same time and compare them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Good evening. As a native speaker of Catalan and as a speaker of Occitan, I'd like to know what linguists say that the Catalan and Occitan languages are the same. In the Spanish Wikipedia the same thing happened, and after discussion we decided to eliminate the assertion that some linguists think they are the same. When you read the same article in Occitan and then in Catalan, it's very easy to think they are the same, because the orthographies are very similar, but Occitan's pronunciation is the most distinctive of all the Romance languages, and it's completeley different from Catalan. Remember, brothers but not the same! KekoDActyluS 16:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Occitan and Catalan are clearly not the same, mainly due to how diphtongs and conversions from Latin consonants to Romance vowels have evolved differently - and most linguists support this...
Can someone cite evidence of the following claim, which is made on the page? "Modern Occitan is the closest relative of Catalan. The languages, as spoken in early medieval times, might be considered variant forms of the same language." To my knowledge, the truth of the first sentence is disputed -- linguists don't agree on whether Catalan is more closely related to French (and hence Occitan) or to Spanish. (Sorry, my reference for that is in German.) UKoch (talk) 13:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Occitan and Catalan are generally classified as members of the same linguistic subfamily, as shown in the chart included in the Romance languages article. Closeness to Spanish is less likely simply because the amount of words of Arabic origin in Spanish is much higher than in either Occitan or Catalan. --jofframes (talk) 20:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
does anyone have a photo of an Occitan street sign?
You know what would be perfect for this article is a photograph of some of the last vestiges of Occitan in southern French cities. I just got back from Toulouse a few weeks ago, and all I saw of Occitan (true to the article) was the occasional street sign.
Surely SOMEONE must have a photograph of a street sign in Toulouse, near La Capitole, where they post both the French and the Occitan street name?? That really would be a nice touch if anyone has one or knows where we can get one.
- Ask and you shall receive ^_^ Kieron a m 02:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
btw the carrièra del taur is the street that goes from plaça de la capitola to plaça sant sermin, significant cos it is where the libreria occitania is. shall i mention this? is it relevant? Kieron a m 02:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- By all means!!
It is indeed a street sign in French and in Occitan. But note that the Occitan flag is on the French translation. Probably a good vignette of French state support for Occitan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 19:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
- The Occitan flag is also the emblem of the Midi-Pyrénées region, of which Toulouse is the capital. I think that is the reason for its presence on Toulouse street signs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:37, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Occitan and Catalan, again
I think all discussions of the similarities and differences between Occitan and Catalan should be moved to a separate article. One comes to Occitan language to see a quick summary, not a huge discussion involving overly specific details about a totally different language. Anon IP, you should be ashamed for trying to turn this into another Catalan article. CRCulver 11:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree.
I disagree. While there could be a specific section for it, you just cannot discuss Catalan and Occitan without addressing their similarities and dissimilarities. FilipeS (talk) 18:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Gallo-Romance or Ibero-Romance?
- it's a point of contention - gallo-romance, ibero-romance, or neither? i think wikipedia should avoid language-tree classifications altogether - at the end of the day, they are all more or less arbitrary... kieron 10:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Category:Catalan language is in both, as it's transitional between both. And Occitan is transitional between Catalan and other Gallo-Romance. If there is truly a debate, I don't necessarily see a problem of classifying it as both at least for the sake of categorization. - Gilgamesh 17:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Requested Move (2006)
Concerning the move
The only thing that could be considered a valid argument against a move to Occitan above is that there could be an article called Occitan people. However, I question the validity of such an article. Please show us acknowledged sources in English that actually refer to "Occitans" that aren't simply referring to the speakers of the language, for whom we never stard separate articles. I also doubt that all Occitan speakers in Spain, France and Italy consider their ethnicity to be "Occitan" rather than being nationals of the respective countries or belonging to some other minority.
The argument that "Occitan" as an adjective may refer to a lot of things is also irrelevant, since neither Occitan cuisine nor Occitan literature can be called just "Occitan". For a parallel see Latin, Latin alphabet, Latin literature, etc. The naming convention is very clear about this for a long time, I might add. The usage of a disambiguator is applicable only if there's a need for it.
- Could I get some responsens to this comment? All of the votes above are based on false premises, especially the ones citing the naming convention. The "language" in language article titles hasn't been considered mandatory for at least a year. And since Occitan people doesn't seem to be appearing any time soon, we shouldn't be using uncalled-for disambiguators. If no comments are forthcoming, I'm posting a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals.
- Peter Isotalo 10:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Support, as the move would be in accordance with Wikipedia's naming conventions. "Occitan" is a language. To the best of my ample knowledge, the Occitan language is the only thing on this world commonly referred to by "Occitan".Unoffensive text or character 12:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose, French and native scholarship uses the term "occitan" to refer to a speaker of the language. Even in English one could see the need for disambiguation between language and people. CRCulver 12:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- This is not a vote, so stop trying to turn it into one. If y'all start voting, it will be about taking sides rather than providing good arguments.
- Culver, considering your claims, it's very odd that the Occitan and French Wikipedias don't seem to be bothered with keeping a separate article for the "Occitan people". They don't even have disambiguators. Why hasn't someone written this self-evident article here for that matter? And even if the term is used (apparantly sparingly) in French and Occitan, I think it's questionable to automatically assume that a) the term has the same meaning in English and b) that there's an Occitan people that exist as a reasonably well-defined ethnic group. Like I've pointed out before, we don't keep separate articles just for the speakers of a language. Now, you're the one making unsupported claims, so please back them up with a source that would be more generally applicable and neutral than a textbook in Occitan.
- Peter Isotalo 19:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, though an enthusiast for languages for the past 45 years, somewhat familiar with "languedoc" and "provençale" from past literary studies, and with Catalan from recent study of a sort, I had never heard of an "Occitan language" (or family of languages/dialects), and find it helpful to have the full expression in the title ... especially given that there is considerable linguistic (and political?) debate as to the nature and scope of that language. Had I simply seen the title "Occitan", I'd have likely passed it by, unaware that it was a languge at all. For those not in the field, the expression is not needlessly redundant. FutharkRed 05:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Not encyclopedic statement
"More widely accepted wisdom suggests that as few as half a million proficient speakers remain in France, for example." What the heck is "more widely accepted wisdom" suppposed to mean? The statement should either be supported with a citation, or deleted. Even if it's retained, it needs to be re-worded to more encyclopedic language (e.g., "Several widely accepted sources suggest..."). 22.214.171.124 05:54, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Which one is closer to the orthography of Catalan, the classical orthography of Occitan, or the Mistralian orthography? Th article should explain this. FilipeS 16:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC
- The classical orthography is closer to the Catalan orthography.--Aubadaurada 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Gallo-Romance language >>> Occitan language
It is certainly more appropriate to classify the Occitan language under the family of Gallo-Romance languages rather than under the family of Ibero-Romance languages. The Occitan language belongs primarily to Southern France. The Occitan language extends to eastern Spain and Western Italy but the areas that interest these countries are minimal.
- This question was already resolved by the linguist Pierre Bec: Occitan is a transition between Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance. When you say that "The Occitan language belongs primarily to Southern France", such an argument is ill-conceived. Linguistic classification follows linguistic criteria: state boundaries are uninteresting for linguistic classification.--Aubadaurada 22:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
If the Occitan language is a transitional language between Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance languages then it should be classified under the Gallo-Iberian languages and not under Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance at the same time. In Gallo-Iberian languages it's classified under Ibero-Romance and in Occitan language is classified under Gallo-Romance. It doesn't make much sense to talk about the same thing and have two separate classifications under two different pages.
- Read Pierre Bec. The only widely accepted set is the Romance languages. All its subsets (Ibero-Romance, Gallo-Romance, and so on) are controversial and not rigid. Transitional sets are perfectly possible because Romance languages are a continuum.--Aubadaurada 13:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
political vs. linguistic classification
Most of the conventional, but still in use, sub-families of romance languages were rather based on political facts than on linguistic study: actually the country in which a language or dialect is mainly spoken used to set its sub-group. Thus the fact that occitan is still often classified as gallo-roman, while catalan is sometimes said ibero-roman.
People can argue for centuries on similarities or differences. The fact remains that cat. & oc. are very close compared to the distance from each of them to any other roman language.
Just to compare, portuguese, galician & spanish (castilian) are usually described as closely related. Actually, studying them shows astonishing similarities in all aspects of the languages -- except for nasal vowels, while they share higher differences with other romance languages. They may be called sister languages and form together an (west-)iberian sub-family. Then, compared to that group, the catalan/occitan pair, or the set of catalan and occitan varieties or dialects, is even (much) closer. There are differences, such as the occitan -o feminine ending, still they are few compared to the ones between portuguese and castilian. I would call them twin languages, which may be appropriate in respect to history: some signs show that they formed a common set of dialects in the late middle ages, which eventually evolved on separated (political) paths.
Upon the relation between french and occitan, and catalan-occitan forming a bridge between gallo-roman and ibero-roman languages : I don't agree with that. On one side, french, or rather the set of oïl language varieties, form a highly different sub-family, compared to all other romance languages, including romanian. The catalan-occitan group may be said to form a bridge between other romance sub-families, excluding french. French is nearly as far to occitan (or catalan) than to italian or castilian. Below how I see the romance family :
romance northern romance/gallo-roman/franco-roman/french/oïl southern romance rumanian (2) italian/official/center & south (2) northern italian (3) sarde (& corsican?) occitan-catalan ibero-roman (4)
(1) long term frankish rule (2) vowel plural ending (3) -s plural ending (4) long term arabic rule As an axample of typical occitan-catalan feature: they have lost masculine and neutral endings (-o in other southern romance) and very often kept the latin root unchanged. For instance latin 'focus' --> oc-cat 'foc', it. 'fuoco', span. 'fuego', port. 'fogo', rom. 'foc', fr. 'feu' -- think at en. 'focal'.
Was Poitiou never part of the Aquitaine?126.96.36.199 08:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Destroy 200 Years of Culture
Occitans, as a result of nearly 200 years of conditioned suppression and humiliation …
I don’t know much about the history of the region, but does this strike anybody else as POV? —Wiki Wikardo 19:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
- Concerning Occitan, Catalan and the Occitano-Romance subgroup, a response is there.--Aubadaurada 13:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Occitan language in Monaco
One of the last interests of Aubadaurada is to include Monaco in the Occitan language aerea. He already tried on WP fr: (and he is tempting on WP it:). His only sources (Bec, Arveiller) tell the exact contrary: nobody speaks Occitan there (except a big mistake, once again, of Ethnologue.com that states that 4,500 people speaks Occitan in Monaco… It is just a big confusion). I do recognize that, between 1860 and 1930' (and perhaps the 40s), few people, mainly immigrants from Nice and Cannes, were Occitan speakers. But there are more Russian, English or Italian speakers in Monaco than Occitan ones…-Enzino 14:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Are there any links to audio files of someone speaking Occitan? Preferably with subtitles in English (or French). Have any feature films been made in the Occitan language? Or are there any Youtube clips? In any event, an audio file would be a useful addition to this article, either as media or as an external link. I tried the link to radio-occitania.com but it does not seem to have streaming audio. --Cinematical (talk) 01:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Sentence in the Lourdes statue
- You're wrong. The correct and codified orthography is the former one: "Que soi era Immaculada Concepcion".--Nil Blau (talk) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Some small changes in Occitan phonology...
Hi, I've made some changes in the transcription of the final unstressed -a. Some people may (/will) disapprove it but actually the usual description (Bec, Coustenoble, the diverse Linguistic Atlas) state that this vowel seems to be a mid-back rounded vowel just like in Spanish and many other languages. Some modern trends think it is an open-mid back vowel however it is really far from sounding just like the -ò- de pòrta for instance. See you, de còr e d'òc, Capsot (talk) 11:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Requested move (2008)
The word Occitan was entirely new to me. I found the article very interesting, but directed a bit too much to the specialist, i.e., linguist. The English on the whole is good, but there are numerous places that show it to be written by a non-English speaker or speakers. I say this from nearly thirty years of experience correcting scientific texts written by non-native speakers. When I read something that contains what I see as language errors, I become suspicious of whether other parts of the text mean what I think they mean. Ami Ralph (talk) 01:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
First map on page
The first map would be helpful if the surrounding countries are labeled, because otherwise, one would have no idea where the Occitan language is spoken if they looked quickly at the article. The map pictured doesn't give one a sense of area at all. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. The map is only useful if you consult another map at the same time. That's nutty. I thank the person who took the time to make it, but it needs labels! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 08:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
typo in Gascon sample?
Totas las personas que naishen liuras e egaus en dignitat e en dreit. Que son dotadas de rason e de consciéncia e que'us cau agir enter eras dab un esperit de hrairessa.
- Not at all. This use of que before a verb is perfectly normal in Gascon Occitan. It indicates an affirmative sentence.--Nil Blau (talk) 15:58, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
external influences could have impeded its origin and development, making it only a tributary of standard Latin.
Written Occitan is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language
Where did you find that ? Would you say that "Written Spanish/Italian/French/Portuguese/etc. is generally understandable by readers who have some knowledge in any other Romance language" ?? 220.127.116.11 (talk) 03:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
- I propose to remove this sentence, since it's non sense, agree ? 18.104.22.168 (talk) 10:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Occitano-Romance linguistic group
In that section, it states, “Speakers of both languages share early historical, cultural, and amicable heritage”… “Amicable heritage?” Is this a mistranslation from a Gallo-Iberian language, or some usage with which I’m unfamiliar? I’d fix it only I’m not quite sure what they’re getting at. —Wiki Wikardo 06:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Spanish, Italian, etc. --Jotamar (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Is there an article about it? 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is only one "Lenga d'Òc" and not several "Lengas (sic) d'Òc". Please read this section. The name "Language of sì" only refers to Italian. This way of naming and comparing three languages ("language of oc", "language of oil", "language of si") was developped especially in Dante's De Vulgari Eloquentia (1304).--Nil Blau (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
- Is there an article about it? 126.96.36.199 (talk) 09:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Addition to Occitan-speaking communities
Occitan is thought to be spoken in La Serena, Chile. A small wave of immigrants from Occitan speaking regions of France, esp. Languedoc-Roussillon, settled there in the late 19th century. The Chilean government sponsored immigration and land sale programs in the subarid Northern and forested Southern halves of the country. Among the 100,000 French immigrants whom came, an estimated 5,000 Occitans live in Chile. A small poetry reading club and an A capella song-and-music group by descendants of Occitan French settlers are preserving the language in Chile. Mike D 26 (talk) 03:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Table of linguistic comparisons
Comparison with other Romance languages Common words in Romance languages, with English (a Germanic language) for reference Latin Occitan (including main regional varieties) Catalan French Ladin (Nones) Lombard Italian Spanish Portuguese Sardinian Romanian English cantare cantar (chantar) cantar chanter ciantar cantà cantare cantar cantar cantare cânta '(to) sing' capram cabra (chabra, craba) cabra chèvre ciaura cavra capra cabra cabra craba capră 'goat' clavem clau clau clé clau ciav chiave llave chave crae cheie 'key' ecclesiam, basilicam glèisa església église glesia giesa chiesa iglesia igreja gresia biserică 'church' formaticvm (Vulgar Latin), casevm formatge (hormatge) formatge fromage formai furmai/furmagg formaggio/cacio queso queijo casu caş 'cheese' lingvam lenga (lengua) llengua langue lenga lengua lingua lengua língua limba limbă 'tongue, language' noctem nuèch (nuèit) nit nuit not nocc notte noche noite nothe noapte 'night' plateam plaça plaça place plaza piasa piazza/platea plaza praça pratza piaţă 'square, plaza' pontem pont (pònt) pont pont pònt punt ponte puente ponte ponte punte 'bridge'
Is there any particular reason why the Latin nouns are always in the accusative case? Is this to do with vulgar Latin adaptations?. I think it should be noted in the article as well. Alexandre8 (talk) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Virgin Mary Statue Pic
Langues d'oc and catalan
Langues d'oc, d'oil and de si represent a comparison of Latin languages based on their words for yes. Langues d'oil has its own article, but langues d'oc redirects here. Langues de si or something similar doesn't have an article anywhere (which would include for example, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish).
Obviously this isn't the system used by modern linguists to classify romance languages, but it's given a certain legitimacy by having langues d'oc redirect here.
- Langues d'oc is an invention of an obscure medievist scholar (Jean-Claude Rivière), compromised in helping a revisionnist "historian" (Henri Roques) around 1975. Dante Alighieri coined the words lingua de hoc, lingua de oïl and lingua de si to denominate Occitan (or Langue d'Oc, singular as written by Honnorat and Mistral), French, and Italian (not Spanish or any other: Dante wanted to push Italian as the literary language against Occitan and French). So langues d'oc has no legitimacy. --— J. F. B. (me´n parlar) 20:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
We then end up with a rather absurd situation where and article that talks about how oil languages (primarily french) can be distinguished from oc languages (which then links here) by their word for yes. Then you have an article that halfway down talks as though Catalan and Occitan are arguably one and the same. But Catalan for yes is si, and not oc. Wouldn't that make Catalan a langue de si?
Again, this system based on yes is obviously archaic, and whether Catalan is "ibero-romance" "gallo-romance" is contentious in itself. But the current situation is rather strange. Perhaps there should be a separate article discussing the oil, oc, si, classification, and then have references to "langues d'oc" redirect there, rather than here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)