Talk:Olympic Council of Ireland

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Ireland (Rated Stub-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Stub-Class article Stub  This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Olympics (Rated Stub-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon Olympic Council of Ireland is within the scope of WikiProject Olympics. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Stub-Class article Stub  This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Republic of Ireland[edit]

Have removed edit from "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland", as this relates to the former and not the latter.Mooretwin (talk) 18:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As per WP:IMOS the edit you reverted is correct. Please provide some fact to back up your claim that this article does not relate to the state called Ireland.Pureditor 19:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Er, the whole point of the edit is that the article DOES relate to the state (i.e. the Republic)! Hence the need to make that clear by referring unambiguously to Republic of Ireland. Otherwise, the impression could be given that the article relates to Ireland as a whole. Just what is your problem with making this clear? It seems you are pursuing some kind of political agenda. The fact that the team uses the name "Ireland" is also made clear in the article. Mooretwin (talk) 19:51, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Please read the Irish Manual of style. This problem has been thought of and a solution was found. Just for you I make a compromise edit so that the MOS is followed but that it is still clear.Pureditor 16:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The compromise was accepted, but you keep deleting the clarification about the name being Ireland, rather than Republic of Ireland. This is necessary so that the reader knows the team is not an all-Ireland team. It is to avoid ambiguity. Mooretwin (talk) 13:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Well then write its not an all Ireland team and that some NI athletes compete for Great Britain. Problem solved.Pureditor 13:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Yet it is pertinent to point out that the name "Ireland" is used, rather than "Republic of Ireland", since this is a curiosity, given that it does not represent all of Ireland.

It is not a curiosity. Ireland is the name of the country and all of its team compete as Ireland except the football team as both international organisations on the island wanted to play under the name of Ireland! This is not unique. If you want to clarify that its not an all Ireland team then do that by saying something like 'The team does not represent the whole island of Ireland and many Northern Irish athletes choose to compete for Great Britain. etc. It is that simple.Pureditor 13:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It is a curiosity. There are few countries named after a geographical area with which the country does not correspond. Your point about other sports teams doesn't really add much weight, since most of those sports teams are all-Ireland ones, and not ROI ones! Mooretwin (talk) 14:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Well it covers 5/6 of the island and is the official name of the state. It is not an issue, you are guilty of WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. There is not a controversery with the name; you are creating one. There are many countries with names that aren't 100% accurate along with your rationale that the name Ireland is wrong. America, Cyprus, Macedonia etc. There is a lot more too. Even the name Northern Ireland is wrong. Sure Donegal is the most northern part of Ireland and is not part of Northern Ireland. Unless you can find a reliable source where there has been a problem with the name Ireland in a sporting context then it should remain as it as per WP:VERIFY.Pureditor 11:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
1. Despite what you say, it is an issue. It is controversial. Provisional SF MLA Barry McElduff raised it recently: "I suppose I am doing it to challenge partitionism – this notion that the 26 counties [Republic of Ireland] constitutes Ireland. I find it very offensive. Even in the EU I hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Sometimes they talk about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I’d call it geopolitical speak." (http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/540/5860/2008/7/29/593862_352672074045Lessonsgi.html) Unionists don't like it either. So many people in NI, both nationalist and unionist, object to a state representing only part of Ireland arrogating the name.
2. It is ambiguous, for obvious reasons.Mooretwin (talk) 16:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


There's no real controversy in this specific case because the OCI is not a state body (it's an NGO which derives its authority from the International Olympic Council, not from the Irish Government) and as a result its rules are slightly unusual - the OCI covers Olympic Sports and for those, people can be selected from all 32 counties on the Island of Ireland to make up the Irish team at the Games. Non-Olympic sports have different rules, depending on the sport in question. Anyone born in Northern Ireland may declare for either the Irish team or the GB team. For example, Ireland was represented in the 50m Mens Prone Rifle match in both Atlanta and Sydney by shooters from Northern Ireland (Gary Duff and Alan Lewis, respectively), and they were operating under the administration of the OCI. MarkDennehy (talk) 00:00, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

References, not Opinion[edit]

I've reverted the unreferenced political opinions in the article, and used the official OCI website as the basis for this article. Please remember that policy dictates that articles must report facts WP:V, quote from reliable sources WP:RS, and be neutral WP:NPOV. --HighKing (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've restored this to the previous, accurate and agreed version. The OCI claims about representing the whole island are not true. Only states may compete at the Olympics (you'll have noticed the Tricolour being used to represent the team in Beijing, for example). As you will see from the Olympic Charter (http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_122.pdf):
1(2) The three main constituents of the Olympic Movement are the International Olympic Committee (“IOC”), the International Sports Federations (“IFs”) and the National Olympic Committees (“NOCs”). Any person or organisation belonging in any capacity whatsoever to the Olympic Movement is bound by the provisions of the Olympic Charter and shall abide by the decisions of the IOC.
28(1) The mission of the NOCs is to develop, promote and protect the Olympic Movement in their respective countries, in accordance with the Olympic Charter.
28(3) The NOCs have the exclusive authority for the representation of their respective countries at the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions patronised by the IOC. In addition, each NOC is obliged to participate in the Games of the Olympiad by sending athletes.
31(1) In the Olympic Charter, the expression “country” means an independent State recognised by the international community.
You'll also see from here (http://www.olympics.org.uk/contentpage.aspx?page=20) that the BOA "is the National Olympic Committee (NOC) for Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
Mooretwin (talk) 08:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi Mooretwin - this subject is not simple. None of the above actually uses the text that is used in the article. Therefore you have to be very careful about *not* interpreting what is said in other places in order to avoid falling into a WP:OR or WP:SYNTH trap. The OCI is clearly in a different position that other organizations as many of the sports are organized on an island basis, and not split according across national boundaries. Their website is designed with this in mind, and is designed to not offend, but this article is making statements that are not found elsewhere and using language that is not supported by references. --HighKing (talk) 08:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
"this article is making statements that are not found elsewhere and using language that is not supported by references" ... Such as?? The article actually explains why NI athletes often compete for the Republic. Mooretwin (talk) 09:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Such as "Following the Irish Free State's creation in 1922" - the exact date of foundation is not known. "The team does not represent the whole island of Ireland" - this is unreferenced. Does a Belfast boxer represent "Team Ireland" or a country? My understanding is that the OCI deliberately chose their language to reflect the unique situation of Irish people from North and South. --HighKing (talk) 09:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
The date of the Foundation of the Free State is known! It is 6th December 1922. Mooretwin (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
The date of the foundation of the OCI isn't, and it was very likely founded before 6th Dec. --HighKing (talk) 09:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Then why don't you edit the article accordingly? THe OCI web site says the exact date is unknown, but the OCI was almost certainly founded some time in 1922. Mooretwin (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I see no need to reference the statement that the team doesn't represent all of Ireland, since it is not possible for the team to represent all of Ireland under IOC rules.Mooretwin (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Then I'll remove the statement as it is WP:SYNTH --HighKing (talk) 09:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Remove what statement? Mooretwin (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
A Belfast boxer represents the OCI, which is the Republic of Ireland's NOC. Mooretwin (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
So let's change the text to say it in a way that uses referencable statements. How about "Although the OCI is the NOC for the Republic of Ireland, many athletes from Northern Ireland also compete for the team, since sports organised on an all-Ireland basis are affiliated to the OCI." or something similar.
No problem with that. Mooretwin (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Your understanding of the OCI's language is neither here nor there: the OCI represents the Republic. Mooretwin (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I did not suggest we insert anybodies understanding into the article, but rather than we are careful to not insert any understanding, just verifiable information. --HighKing (talk) 09:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Everything in the article was verifiable. Mooretwin (talk) 09:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Thanks Mooretwin. Can you take a look at the changes I've made in line with our discussion. --HighKing (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I've made a further change to clarify that the original founding goal re. all-Ireland was not legally achievable, yet linked this to the fact that, in practice, many NI athletes compete for the South. Mooretwin (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
That's fine. Thank you. --HighKing (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Domer's latest change re. ROI/Ireland[edit]

Yes, the name of the organisation is "Olympic Council of Ireland", but it does not represent all of Ireland - the country it represents is Republic of Ireland, hence the need for the sidebar to states this, as per WP policy on the name of the state. Mooretwin (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Stop making up wiki lawyering reasons for your POV. The name is Ireland, it links to the right page and also has the flag beside it. You're a POV Pusher. Stop pushing.213.202.165.52 (talk) 21:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
The state is also called Republic of Ireland and WP uses this in recognition of the need for disambiguation, given that the state's name is a misnomer. Given that the organisation is called "of Ireland", and is therefore ambiguous, there is a need to clarify to readers that it represents ROI and not the whole island. There is a cabal of WP editors who, for (presumably ideological reasons?) object to the term ROI. It seems to me that they are the ones pushing their POV. What is wrong with the term? Mooretwin (talk) 07:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
The state is not also called Republic of Ireland. Maybe with your POV you think it is, but its not. Its name internationally is Ireland. The term is inaccurate and incorrect. Stop pushing an incorrect term.213.202.131.154 (talk) 11:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
It is. Check out the Republic of Ireland (!) Act 1948! Or a quick Google of "Republic of Ireland" will throw up thousands of references. The term is neither inaccurate nor incorrect. "Ireland", however, is ambiguous - hence sensible to use the alternative name which is not ambiguous. Mooretwin (talk) 11:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not. I suggest you read that Act. Nowhere does it suggest that ROI is a name for the state. The google search I did brings up pages about the football team and a few British media websites. Your POV is not sensible and is completely incorrect. You are the only editor looking for this POV. I sense that you're young and a bit immature but please stop pushing your POV and OR. The basic fact is there is no fact behind your edits so it is wrong.213.202.131.154 (talk) 11:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
It's the description of the state, so let's use it in order to avoid confusion. Nothing to do with POV. The POV seems to be coming from you (an anonymous, unregistered editor, engaging in personal abuse of me), given that you seek - for no apparent good reason, other than a technicality - to change a legitimate name for the ROI state in order to use a name likely to cause confusion. On WP, the name is Republic of Ireland - check out the article. Mooretwin (talk) 11:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
LOL! The constitution, the EU, the UN and the rest of the world are now technicalities? I do not seek to change a legitimate name; that is you. ROI is not the name. Ireland is. The "confusion" is your made up OR. It links correctly, shows the correct name and has the correct flag. Your confusion is imaginary. Your POV is wrong. Stop. This discussion is over. Your a POV pusher and have no facts and therefore consensus will not change.213.202.131.154 (talk) 12:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
First, I suggest that you register as a user.
Second, I suggest that you desist from ad hominem remarks, remain civil, and stick to the topic under discussion.
Third, the technicality to which I referred was the distinction between a "name" and a "description".
Fourth, there is scope for confusion, given the title of the organisation, and the (understandable) misconception abroad that the "Ireland" Olympic team represents the whole island.
Fifth, there is nothing wrong with "Republic of Ireland", and WP uses it, as you will see when you go to the Republic of Ireland article. If you have an issue with that, join the discussion on the relevant Task Force page. Mooretwin (talk) 12:25, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The name is Ireland. Please read Bunreacht na hÉireann. --Domer48'fenian' 12:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

No-one's disputing that the "official name" is Ireland! The reference in this article, however, should be Republic of Ireland (the "official description") so as to avoid ambiguity. What's the problem? Mooretwin (talk) 16:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The name of the state is Ireland, and where an article calls for the name, then the official name should be used. In articles where there is some danger of confusion *between* the island and the state, then the article can make it clear that the state is intended. The first line of the article provides appropriate clarification. There is currently no consensus as to what disambiguation to use - please feel free to participate in the appropriate task force. --HighKing (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There is a danger for confusion here, as many believe the Olympic team represents the whole island (as is the case in many (most) sports. Mooretwin (talk) 16:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Surely an encylopaedia should record factual information and not the assumptions of the editors. It's your assumption that many believe the Olympic team represents the whole island, and therefore assume that there is confusion here? --Domer48'fenian' 17:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, and it is factual that the OCI represents the ROI. Mooretwin (talk) 18:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Which is made perfectly clear in the first line of the article. The heading does not require changing. --HighKing (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
There's no suggestion that the heading should change, just that the sidebar should refer to Republic of Ireland. So, too, should the intro para. Mooretwin (talk) 10:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The fact that BigDunc is are querying whether the OCI represents only the Republic or the whole island (see below) reinforces the need to remove ambiguity in the article, and to refer to Republic of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 10:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Removal of bona fide and accurate reference[edit]

Why has Big Dunc removed a 'bona fide' and accurate reference? This was added following a discussion. It is unreasonable simply to dismiss an established text (the result of compromise), without even having the courtesy to discuss it first. Mooretwin (talk) 18:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Read my edit summary and you will know why I did it. BigDuncTalk 18:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I did read it. It made no sense, as it involved an untrue statement. Mooretwin (talk) 18:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Olympic Charter (reference)[edit]

A reference to the Olympic Charter was removed with the explanation that it "does not say anything releated to the sentence it is referencing". The reference clearly states:

"The NOCs have the exclusive authority for the representation of their respective countries at the Olympic Games and at the regional, continental or world multi-sports competitions patronised by the IOC."

It then clarifies the term "country":

"In the Olympic Charter, the expression “country” means an independent State recognised by the international community."

--Setanta747 (talk) 00:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

So to use it to refrence the sentence that it was is synthesis and original reasearch. No mention of Ireland in the charter. BigDuncTalk 02:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
There is neither synthesis nor original research involved in citing the Olympic Charter. Do you have a problem with basic logic? Mooretwin (talk) 07:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
No but it seems you do. Where in the charter does it state that the OCI represent only the republic of Ireland? BigDuncTalk 09:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Where it states that national olympic associations represent countries, which are defined as independent states recognised by the international community! Setanta has even spelled it out for you. Try reading it. Mooretwin (talk) 10:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
There's a very similar argument occurring on Talk:British Isles about the "offensive to nationalists", coupled with a survey that shows the majority of Irish people favour a united Ireland. That was judged to be OR for the same reasons as this (which is according to policy). --HighKing (talk) 10:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
How is it "very similar"? How is this OR? Mooretwin (talk) 10:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, better to read WP:SYN for the policy, then read Talk:British Isles for the example I've given, and compare with what you're trying to do. Pretty obvious... --HighKing (talk) 10:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not obvious in the least, and the fact that you are apparently unable to explain the similarity reinforces the view that it is not obvious. WP:SYN says "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a conclusion". That does not apply here. Mooretwin (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Because you are ignoring the primary source - that of the OCI website. Picking and choosing references to push a POV is against policy. Furthering that by picking a sentence here and there from the Olympic charter and applying that to this article in such a way as to deliberately misrepresent the statements on the OCI website is also against policy. You have been pushing this POV for some time now, and I replied to you on this months ago. You'd be better served by introducing a note to clarify your points (which are good points that I agree should be clarified) rather than trying to hijack the article. --HighKing (talk) 10:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not a "POV": it's a fact that the OCI represents the Republic and not the whole island. Where does the OCI web site claim that the OCI represents the whole island? It uses the name "Ireland", but - as you know - that is an ambiguous term, referring both to the Republic and to the island. The OCI usage refers to the former. Ironically - given BigDunc's other edits - both your and BigDunc's contributions here reinforce the need for disambiguation, as you very clearly highlight the ambiguous name of the OCI and the ambiguous references on its web site. Finally, the sentence and reference were added following a discussion and were part of a compromise conclusion. Mooretwin (talk) 11:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Mooretwin, just to be clear - I 100% agree with the points your are raising. The fact that the Olympic charter normally organizes by nation, but that Ireland appears to be an exception is notable. That athletic organizations sometimes organize on an all-island basis, and the fact that these all-island athletic organizations compete under the OCI should also be noted in the article. All these points can be supported by references. It's just a matter of saying the same thing differently, using the appropriate references. --HighKing (talk) 15:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
That seems like a bit of a reversal in your position and attitude. What you suggest is already noted in the article, and it was I who noted them: "... many athletes from Northern Ireland also compete for the team, since sports organised on an all-Ireland basis are affiliated to the OCI". My reference for the introductory part of that sentence is valid, and should not have been deleted. Mooretwin (talk) 19:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Really? Perhaps it's still not clear? My position is that I ask you to not join two sentences/points together to make a claim, but rather to take the time to make each point, with references. Also the current sentence doesn't read well and sounds like it's trying to be legal. The Charter doesn't restrict authority for example, but provides definitions of countries, etc. Trying to imply that somehoe authority is restricted is OR. Hope that's clear. --HighKing (talk) 19:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Not clear at all. The Charter says that National Olympic Committees represent countries. And it defines country as independent state. Using the most elementary logic, that means that the OCI, which is a National Olympic Association, represents ROI, and not Ireland (the island), which is not a country under the definition in the Charter. Surely that is not difficult to understand? Mooretwin (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok I've read the document the first time, and I can not find the Republic of Ireland in it. Could you please tell me what page its on? --Domer48'fenian' 19:28, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not on any page. No-one said it was. Try using basic reasoning skills. Mooretwin (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Please stop edit-warring, or I shall report you. Mooretwin (talk) 22:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

If the information is not in source, then it should not be used? Dunc removed it for that very reason, and you reverted saying that it was a removed on false premise? You now agree that it's not on any page? I'm not sure who you directed your last comment at, but I'll assume it was not me? --Domer48'fenian' 07:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about. The source is the Olympic Charter. It says NOCs represent independent states. Therefore the OCI represents ROI and not the island of Ireland. It's not rocket science. Mooretwin (talk) 08:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Simple question does it state Ireland in the source? If not then you are engaged in original research. BigDuncTalk 08:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
You are being obstructive. It doesn't need to state Ireland. It states that NOCs represent independent states, therefore supporting the statement that the OCI (which is the NOC for "Ireland") represents the independent state of "Ireland", i.e the Republic (and not the geographic entity of Ireland). Mooretwin (talk) 08:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[deindent] I have restored the version of this page at which I had added information. For some reason, my edits were reverted with the claim, in the edit summary, of "Original Research" when in fact the added information was fully cited in the OCI website. --Setanta747 (talk) 11:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Olympic Council of Ireland[edit]

A determined group of editors has decided to ensure that the term "Republic of Ireland" may not appear in this article, even though other editors consider that it is necessary to make clear to readers that the OCI represents the Republic and not the whole island of Ireland. Most recently, this has even resulted in edit-warring to replace the phrase "state of Ireland" with "country of Ireland", even though the latter is ambiguous, given that "country" is often used to mean the whole island.

MT, you've an error in the template above, you might want to consider fixing it. As much as I object to the insinuations of underhanded motivations above, I will merely point out that it could equally be argued by observers that a group of motivated British editors are attempting to introduce the term "Republic of Ireland" into many articles in a provocative and disruptive manner. Your final point - that "country" is often used to mean the whole island - is rather odd, unless you happen to be a secret republican fighting for a united Ireland, in which case I could understand how you might confuse the terms in this way. Other editors have no such problem - scroll up and read Setanta747's arguments above. HighKing (talk) 15:20, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't know how to fix it. Feel free to fix it if you can. Mooretwin (talk) 15:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, however, I wanted to change the text as it is too long - maybe that's what cause the f*ck-up? Is it possible to change the text? Mooretwin (talk)
I was hoping that this RfC would attract impartial contributors rather than the usual suspects. I will simply say, however, that aggressive edit-warring has taken place on this article - quite disruptive and unreasonable - by those with an apparent Republic-of-Ireland-phobia. This is an article where it is entirely appopriate and helpful to refer to the Republic to distinguish it from the island. Mooretwin (talk) 15:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
I am new here and have come in response to the RFC. As I understand it 'Ireland' is the correct (as chosen by the government of that country) name for what is correctly described as the Republic of Ireland. The article seems to make clear when the country is being referred to and when the whole island is, thus there is no need for the term 'Republic of Ireland' in the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Except someone has edited it to change "state" to "country". Many people consider the "country" to equate to the whole island. The current wording is ambiguous. Mooretwin (talk) 14:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
You keep saying many people could you expand on who these many people are and how you know that they are all confused. BigDuncTalk 14:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
My goodness. Well, for a start, Irish nationalists tend to consider the whole of Ireland to be one country! Mooretwin (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I have never seen that usage. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
What usage??? BigDuncTalk 16:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
The use of 'country' to refer to the whole island. I was responding to Mooretwin.

(outdent)I think the intro needs to be reworded to highlight the all-island organization a little more. --HighKing (talk) 01:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)