Talk:Operation Market Garden

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Obscure references maligning brave soldiers[edit]

Removing some of the bias against minor figures involved in the operation. It was an English operation, and a mess at that. Responsiblity for the mess is being passed to others such as the Poles and Americans who are not even listed in the commanders section. You can be sure that had it been a victory, the English would have taken full credit. Wallie (talk) 19:13, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

That's correct. But this is nothing new.. Another example: Everybody knows the battle of Waterloo, Wellington and the british victory. Nobody remembers Blücher, his prussian troops and the decisive role they played in that battle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.192.32.5 (talk) 18:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Please learn the difference between "English" and "British". Also, please become aware of the fact that the First Allied Airborne Army, the USSAF, and RAF planned the airborne element of this operation. That is several multinational forces all playing a major role in the planning and carrying out of drop zones, objectives, flying troops in, and conducting the actual fighting. 21st Army Group, who conducted the ground portion of the advance, was also multi-national with British Second Army comprised of Belgian, English, Irish (both from the north and those who had crossed over from the Republic to fight against Nazism), Scots, Welsh, and Germans (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8635541.stm). So drop the sarcastic racist attitude, and bring a constructive and sourced argument to the table.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
LOL, racist. British is a race now, is it? <ignore> Both of you, knock it off. This is a controversial article, not at all aided by the massive amount of American vs. British finger-pointing that has dogged the topic for more than half a century. You both look very embarrassing in the year 2014 when you spout 1940s nationalism.
That said, I would note that the general historical consensus has now turned against the plan itself, while retaining a secondary appreciation for the smaller impact created by bad tactics: the American 508th PIR and the British XXX Corps both now come out of the mess looking quite crappy due to their lack of aggression compared to the other airborne units that were desperately fighting to make good on their parts of the plan. Even Gavin was regretful he didn't send his A-team to handle the bridge at Nijmegen, and Monty hated Adair (commander XXX Corps) and had wanted him replaced months ago. BUT....neither of these units decided the battle. The battle was lost before it was started. Regardless of what Patton (all tactical and 0% strategic) thought, it takes a hell of a lot of good tactics to rescue a bad strategy, but any good strategy includes an expectation of a certain amount of bad tactics. Monty's plan had zero wiggle room for bad tactics, bad weather, bad intel or bad anything else. It was a bad plan because it was a tightrope walk based on unverified expectations and unresearched assumptions. If he had not been stomping his feet so hard for a chance to rehabilitate his image as strategic master after Caen and the Falaise Gap, Ike would have rejected it and they would have done something else. He even admitted as much in his post-war writings. But Monty had pull and a flair for the dramatic and Ike had a soft spot for politics, and THAT is why current historical consensus stands where it does. No need to make the matter personal. Vintovka Dragunova (talk) 04:35, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Adair commanded Guards Armoured Division, not XXX Corps (which was commanded by Brian Horrocks). And Market Garden wasn't 'Monty's plan', it was a plan wished on him, mostly by Washington, where Marshall and Hap Arnold wanted to see their 'star' airborne divisions in dramatic action (see for instance Stephen Badsey, Arnhem 1944: Operation Market Garden, Osprey, 2003, p.9). And it failed because the only possible breakthrough route was too vulnerable, because Browning and Brereton weren't very good and Brereton in particular did nothing, because British 1st Airborne were dropped too far from the target and because US 101st and 82nd Airborne failed to secure the bridges at Son and Nijmegen on time or, indeed, to secure them at all. After Normandy, there was also a rather arrogant expectation by planners that the enemy wouldn't do anything, which, given the enemy were the Germans, was less than clever. 80.189.200.29 (talk) 19:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Have we got a reliable source for Operation Market Garden being planned in Washington? I am not aware of any ETO operation being planned by OPD. Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I would think the cited author, Stephen Badsey, is himself a reliable source in Wikipedia terms, as he's a reputable author and a lecturer at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, and his Arnhem book is in the article's bibliography. What he says, and the article seems to reflect this, is: 'Under pressure from Washington, where Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall and General Henry "Hap" Arnold, commanding the Army Air Forces, both wanted a major airborne operation mounted in Europe before the end of the war, Eisenhower placed First Allied Airborne Army under 21st Army Group control.' (Eisenhower had himself created that formation under Brereton a few weeks earlier.) 'As the Allied supply crisis and dispute over strategy worsened, it was from this tangle of conflicting interests that an airborne solution, Operation "Market Garden", started to emerge.' The suggestion is not that people in Washington did the detailed operational planning, but that Washington indicated to Eisenhower that an airborne spectacular was favoured, so if Monty wanted resources from Ike for his 'northern thrust' then an airborne spectacular with the 82nd and 101st involved was what he had to do. Don't know what Badsey's sources are, but, if they're primary documents, those are not considered 'reliable' by Wikipedia -- you have to go with the published secondary sources. The airborne part of Market Garden, the 'daring' part which was supposed to win plaudits, was mainly American in terms of troops and aircraft and was under an American commander, Brereton, who has become almost invisible due to the blame-shifting game: you could be forgiven for imagining that it was Browning's show and that his US superior never existed, even though it was Brereton's order to ground the Allied tactical air forces during the resupply lifts that conceded air superiority over the battlefield to the enemy for the only time in the Northwest Europe campaign, a fairly astounding achievement for an Allied commander, and this may have had at least as much influence on the battle as the well-known problems with the weather and 1st Airborne's radios.

Considering the controversial subject, the article doesn't seem too bad at the moment, and someone has kindly headed off an attempt to blame Capt Lord Carrington MC, as if he could actually have taken on the whole of Bittrich's II SS-Panzer Korps with four Shermans. Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:17, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Infobox[edit]

What is wrong with it? Well other than pretty much no other article does this and there is a dedicated article for this, per Template:Infobox military conflict: "A military conflict infobox (sometimes referred to as a warbox) may be used to summarize information about a particular military conflict (a battle, campaign, war, or group of related wars) in a standard manner" (my emphasis).

The template also highlights "units1/units2/units3 – optional – the units or formations involved. If a large number of distinct formations is present, it may be better to reference an order of battle in the body of the article than to include the entire list in this field. The units3 field can only be used if the combatant3 field is set" (my emphasis). EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree - this is much too detailed, especially as we also have an Operation Market Garden order of battle article. Nick-D (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
that's where i got the details, which are vastly more expansive. i only added the main units SyriaWarLato (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
The main units (ignoring several incorrect divisional titles) included VIII and XII Corps, who played only a peripheral role? The main units included most of the German divisions in the Netherlands, most of whom - on the list - are not mentioned within the article and their own articles mentioned practically nothing on the operation?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 23:37, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
then that's an issue with the OOB that has to be corrected on the page and infobox. SyriaWarLato (talk) 23:55, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
No. Your argument was you have only transposed the main units into the infobox. My argument is that you have copied the entire order of battle over for several armies, which is way to detailed. Your own response acknowledges a level of ignorance on what the main units actually were for this battle (that is not an issue for the detailed OOB page).EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Infoboxes are not meant to have anything like the current level of detail: please note that the guidance for this field at Template:Infobox military conflict says that "If a large number of distinct formations is present, it may be better to reference an order of battle in the body of the article than to include the entire list in this field". I've reverted your change pending further discussion here. Nick-D (talk) 00:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Operation Market Garden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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N Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 13:07, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Possible copyright violation[edit]

I have removed a paragraph from Il Silenzio (song) and Operation Market Garden because of possible copyright violation. This paragraph seems to be originally added to these articles in this and this edit in 2014. I was unable to find (using a web search) the original source, but this content has been around the Internet at least since 2010 and it's clear that this removed paragraph was copy pasted from unknown source (maybe from this?) Politrukki (talk) 14:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Too much detail in a couple of the Nijmegen sections[edit]

I have tagged two of the Nijmegen sections to be summarized. Although the extra detail being added is well sourced, it's too detailed for this article. (Hohum @) 15:51, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Edithbridge ?[edit]

"Wijchen

At 09:50 the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment was going forward to Wijchen, to attack the Edithbridge from its south end. The bridge was secured. After this fierce engagement they pushed on to the traffic bridge south of Wijchen. Another fierce engagement followed and this bridge was secured. "

Where/what is Edith bridge? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.107.64 (talk) 14:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)