Talk:Orkney
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Contents
Lock article in run up to and aftermath of Scottish independence vote[edit]
As hard as it might be for people to imagine, the existence of Orkney as fundamentally part of Scotland is about to become incredibly politicised due to the Scottish independence debate. I strongly advocate locking the article until well after the terms of separation are settled to avoid Wikipedia being used as a political football. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.57.163 (talk) 04:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Population[edit]
I've always found it difficult to follow trends from a column of numbers, and I'm probably not the only one. So I made a graph and added it to §Overview of population trends. I couldn't figure out how to get it placed nicely in wikicode, or in the wikitable that the numbers are already in, so I used plain HTML, which seems to have worked properly. --Thnidu (talk) 04:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
External links modified[edit]
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150713011232/http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm to http://getamap.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/getamap/frames.htm
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140528053110/http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-6UFE3Y to http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-6UFE3Y
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130729230722/http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2009/10/untouchable-orkney-shetland-isles.html to http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2009/10/untouchable-orkney-shetland-isles.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140304095849/http://www.alba.org.uk/scot99constit/h05.html to http://www.alba.org.uk/scot99constit/h05.html
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20111005153021/http://www.ensg.gov.uk/assets/kel003110000.pdf to http://www.ensg.gov.uk/assets/kel003110000.pdf
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120911225847/http://www.clackson.com:80/tartan/sanday-tartan.htm to http://www.clackson.com/tartan/sanday-tartan.htm
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Video[edit]
Watch hereLPF plod (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
Orkney Name Translation[edit]
No justification has ever been made for having a Scots Gaelic translation for Orkney placed in a prominent position on English language wiki page for Orkney. This gives a misleading impression that Scots Gaelic has had significant presence in Orkney and is spoken in Orkney.
Original addition: (cur | prev) 07:48, 18 March 2007 Ronline (talk | contribs) . . (37,958 bytes) (+14) . . (added official gaelic name) (undo)
Several times this edit has been removed (with justification) by a number of users and several times it has been re-instated without justification.
The Norse translation is a direct etymological precursor of the current name and therefore is deserving of the prominent position. This also reflects the Norse heritage of the Islands.
I don't really want to have a continual edit battle over this point but I do believe common sense should prevail rather than ideology. There is no evidence that Arcaibh has ever been used within or out-with Orkney in its early history. The etymology section gives a clear picture of the current name and other names used prior to the Norse settlement (which does not include Arcaibh, a modern Scots Gaelic interpretation).
There is an ideal wikipedia site for a modern Scots Gaelic translation of the name Orkney and that is the Scots Gaelic wikipedia page for Orkney. Located here https://gd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcaibh.
The proposal is to remove Arcaibh from the prominent position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.198.190.54 (talk) 17:02, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, user above does seem to have a point. This seems more appropriate for the other language Wiki page recommended. It is unclear what motivation Dr Chris Williams of the Glasgow University has as to why he wishes to force the issue. Looking at previous IP addresses it seems that the other unsigned additions of this have been made from a computer located at the University of Glasgow. This seems very strange. - David C, 3rd April 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.253.192.31 (talk) 19:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Dr Chris Williams and the other users in adding the Gaelic name. Scotland is officially a bilingual country, even if Orkney as an area is not. Many other countries which are bilingual, for example English wikipedia articles relating to Canada prominently feature the French name for a predominantly English speaking part of the country. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia. In the name of consistency and respecting the bilingual nature of Scotland it is only right to include the Gaelic name. Cjduffy (talk) 17:47, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with motion to remove. Scotland is not the same as Canada. Canada has a significant percentage of people speaking French. In any case there are many places in Canada that only list an English name so the argument for consistency is debunked. Scots Gaelic name for Orkney has never been used by anyone to a significant degree. Scotland is not recognised as bilingual, it is recognised as multilingual with Gaelic being officially described as a minority language. There are far more speakers of Scots than Scots Gaelic. Using the same flawed logic as before, we should also have the Scots names too. It doesn't seem right to have a minority language being imposed on place names where it was never spoken. It smacks of cultural whitewash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.253.234.111 (talk) 20:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- Gaelic is not a minority language. It is a language legally recognised in Scotland as enjoying equal status with English as of 2005.
- And if you want to talk about cultural whitewash, let's talk about you whitewashing the Norse-Gaelic cultural interface. First, say hello to Harald Maddadsson, Jarl of Orkney... or, as he might have been called in his father the Mormaer of Atholl's Gaelic-speaking court, Aralt mac Mataid, Mormaer of Innse Orc. And Malise V, Earl of Strathearn... and Orkney. A Gael.
- The Sinclairs were a clan with very close connections to northern Scotland. Their lands in Caithness at this same time were becoming increasingly Gaelic speaking. There is no reason to believe none of them were capable of Gaelic speech either.
- You are erasing a rich history of Gaelic and Norse cultural interface for your hatred of Gaelic. And that bigotry belongs in neither Wikipedia nor Scotland. 80.2.184.162 (talk) 22:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
- I would like to offer some clarifications to the most recent user supporting the motion to remove. Indeed areas of Canada have far more French speakers but sticking with the example I gave of British Columbia, only 1.4% of people are listed as native French Speakers, so it very much is a minority language there but yet it is still prominently listed because the French is an officially recognised name with the same status as the English. This is the case with Gaelic in Scotland as per the 2005 legislation and therefore it should be included. As for other articles not providing a French name in the case of Canada this is because there is not a French name to use in the first instance in almost all cases (checking the French wikipedia entry will confirm this).
- To draw on other examples across Wikipedia of Gaelic being included prominently on the article one only need look at the entries for railway stations in Scotland, they all prominently include the Gaelic despite some servicing areas with little or no Gaelic speakers. This is a matter of respecting that the languages have equal standing in Scotland regardless of how widely spoken they are.
- On your point about Scots that is a debate for another perhaps for another time, but I must say that the logic isn't flawed, although I don't believe that there is a Scots translation if there is it should be included as Scots is also recognised as official language of Scotland. This comes back to the earlier point made about the existence or otherwise of a translation. Finally I have to dispute your claim of a cultural whitewash, firstly a whitewash means to cover or hide information adding a language that is a small part of the history of Orkney does not do anything to detract from the rest of its culture, and secondly as the above user makes clear in rather strong terms there is Gaelic history in Orkney and that to omit that surely would be the true whitewash. Cjduffy (talk) 00:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think we need to cool the emotions here. I don't think any of the users here have a hatred towards Gaelic and I think an apology is in order if any offence has been caused. It is understood that Gaelic has suffered from renaming crimes quite badly in the past and I personally support the reinstatement of the use of historically relevant place names throughout Scotland - which I concede cover a great deal of names on the Scottish Mainland. However, and this is not meant to cause offence, the point still stands that no history is being erased as there is no Gaelic history in Orkney as a significant cultural influence. To include the Gaelic title is to say that Gaelic is historically significant within the district. Which it is not. Wikipedia is supposed to give readers a truthful impression of the subject matter. As mentioned earlier, including the Scots Gaelic name in such a position is misleading as it gives newcomers to the topic an impression that the Gaelic name is somehow relevant historically or etymologically. The Gaelic name is a new incarnation and therefore based on all that has been said, I maintain that is should be respectfully moved to a less prominent position.
- However, as a peace offering, may it be suggested that it is described in an 'other names' table within the etymology section. It would be very informative, and interesting to have a table showing the many names, their period of use and origin. This would give credit that there is strong Gaelic culture neighbouring Orkney and Caithness that named the isles independently but also give a clear picture on thier relevance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.255.149.119 (talk) 06:59, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- It would be very helpful if editors stopped edit warring about this issue and (as some are doing) attempted to reach some sort of consensus. Secondly, I suggest that all concerned read MOS:FORLANG. Ben MacDui 10:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I have been to Orkney many times over the last 30 years. I also have family there. There are no dual language signs and everyone that I have spoken to over the years is adamant that Gaelic is not part of thier culture. I agree to exclude the Gaelic translation as it conveys something that isn't accurate. Having it this way will represent the local signage as well as local and national government literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.129.132 (talk) 13:27, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
On balance, I would tend to side with excluding it. In Galway we have dual language signs in Irish and English because it's direct part of our heritage and it definitely seems that that doesn't apply to the Isles of Orkney. I think the Wiki page needs to reflect that. We need to respect the individuality of places rather than overlooking the truthful variety that exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.203.12.3 (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Interesting debate. As an outsider and non involved editor I see it like this. Orkney is administered as part of Scotland and Gaelic has the status of a minority language in Scotland. Therefore a resident of Scotland who speaks Gaelic should expect to see the Gaelic name for Orkney mentioned. However, there is an argument that Orkney never had a Gaelic culture and went straight from Pictish to Norse reinforced by their names for the islands developing into the current name Orkney. Therfore I feel those names should be mentioned too despite the fact that neither language has any status in Scotland and are both dead. As a comparision look at how wikipedia handles cities in Eastern Europe like Lviv and Breslau. No point in editing warring - you will never all agree to one being mentioned and not the others Lyndaship (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Name translations proposal[edit]
- The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a discussion. Please do not modify it.
Since 18th January there have been 50 edits to this article, almost all removing or inserting ‘name translations’. One of the last of these edits referred to a lack of consensus, so I am going to attempt to resolve this issue.
Firstly, here’s my declaration of interests. I speak English and Scots. Other than a few place names I speak no Gaelic or Norse language. I value all of these languages and have no interest in marginalising one at the expense of the other. I have spent a very large proportion of my time here editing articles about parts of Scotland where the predominant language is now English but where both Celtic and Norse languages have been spoken in the past. I want to honour all of these cultures but do not want to spend the rest of eternity observing tiresome edit wars.
Secondly, a few facts. It is surmised that the pre-Norse inhabitants of Orkney spoke Pictish – a language about which we know little although it is assumed to be P-Celtic in nature.
After the Picts, the island was predominantly Norse speaking and indeed part of the Kingdom of Norway until the late 15th century. Norn continued to be spoken (in slowly reducing numbers) until the 18th century. There is a fine article by Gregor Lamb, called “The Orkney Tongue” (see Note 21 to the Article) in which he identifies two words used in modern Orkney that appear to derive from a ‘Celtic’ language. They are ‘’iper’’, meaning 'mire' and ‘’keero’’ meaning a small sheep. He describes Norn as “universally spoken" in the Orkney islands 500 years ago and suggests that Norn and Scots bilingualism was common for about 200 years up to the mid 15th century. The Scottish earls who governed Orkney from 1230 for about 100 years “for whom Gaelic must have been a first language” nonetheless received all official documents in Norn. The Sinclair Earls who ruled the islands from the mid 14th century were Scots rather than Gaelic speakers.
Conclusion 1 - Lead[edit]
MOS:FORLANG states "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses."
If we stick with that guidance it seems obvious to me that the only alternate name that should be in the lead is ‘’Orkneyar’’, the Old Norse name for the island, which name was in use for centuries and which is still used occasionally today (see citation 1). The claims of Gaelic, or Old Irish or assumptions about Pictish for a place here are weak.
Infobox[edit]
As far as I can see WP:MOS has rather less to say about Infoboxes, although MOS:IBX does encourage “Consistency Between Infoboxes.” Template:Infobox Scottish islands has at least 250 transclusions and the common practice is quite simple.
- The English language name is shown.
- If the island has a strong Gaelic heritage, the modern Gaelic name is shown.
- If the island has a Norse heritage (and most of them do) then that name is shown.
- If there is another language from which the modern derivation may come (e.g. Arran) that may be explained as a “meaning of the name” in the infobox.
See also Scottish island names.
Clearly an infobox cannot be expected to go into details – that’s for the Etymology section of the article.
Conclusion 2 – Infobox[edit]
Orkney has a strong Norse heritage and ‘’Orkneyar’’ should appear here.
The “Meaning of name” parameter should state “Possibly from a Pictish tribal name meaning ‘young pig’<reference>
I can see no reason to insert the modern Gaelic name here unless someone can come up with a citation to show that this name was in regular use on the island itself for a reasonable period of time. Per the above there may be some evidence that this was the case (although I suspect it would have been confined to the earl and his immediate family and advisers) but I don’t recall seeing any reference to what actual name they used – which may or may not have been the modern Gaelic name. To quote from Earl of Orkney - after the close of the "Jarls' Saga’’ on the death of Jon Haraldsson in 1230, the history of Orkney is "plunged into a darkness which is illuminated by very few written sources" so this may not prove easy.
Legitimacy[edit]
All those acting in good faith are welcome to participate in the discussion of this proposal of course. However, it is my suspicion that there is an element of ‘sock-puppetry’ going on at present. Please read WP:SOCK if you don’t know what I mean - although I am sure most of you do. I am no stranger to sock investigations and please be advised that:
- accounts participating in this discussion with no previous editing history other than edit warring on this article in the period since January 18 2018 will have their remarks struck.
- any account participating in this discussion that I suspect to be a sock-puppet or ‘meat-puppet’ will be reported at WP:SPI where, if found guilty, they can expect to receive a block.
Support as nominator. Ben MacDui 11:32, 14 April 2018 (UTC)- Oppose. Firstly though let me thank you for the excellent way you have marshaled your argument and for attempting to resolve this dispute. I can't agree with your proposal as Orkney is currently administered as part of Scotland and a recognised minority language of Scotland is Gaelic. Therefore all places in Scotland should have their Gaelic name mentioned regardless that there is no historical record of the inhabitants of that area using the Gaelic name, inhabitants of other areas in Scotland would have used it Lyndaship (talk) 10:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Lyndaship: Thanks for your kind remarks - nonetheless I should probably have attempted to make it more clear how to respond to the proposals. Are you opposed to both i.e. you wish to see Arcaibh in both the lead and the infobox? I particularly ask as it seems to me that the case for the infobox is rather better than for the lead. Ben MacDui 10:23, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- Agreement I am happy to defer to your view. At present we therefore have unanimity, so let's call this discussion a day unless there is more input in the next 24 hrs or so. Ben MacDui 11:04, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Comment On what basis are you dictating that this informal RfC is only open to people who have edited the article in the past (?) or who have not edit "warred" since January 18 2018? There are several ways to interpret your restriction as worded. I don't think it is binding as consensus if you do that or anything of the sort. Also you cannot just strike the comments of other editors. Even someone who arguably edit warred or even was sanctioned for 3RR, as long as there is no topic ban, has the prerogative to give their opinion toward consensus. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:14, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
- On the grounds that the article has recently been bombarded with actions undertaken by "alternative accounts". Editors in good standing are welcome to comment of course. If you observe the recent edit history of the article you might conclude that WP:IAR applies in this case. Besides, it hasn't proved necessary, so far.... I trust you are not encouraging said socks to re-engage. Ben MacDui 07:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well that makes sense but I think there are processes for dealing with socks and edit warring other than censoring talk page comments ourselves. I have noticed some of the activity here but haven't been paying close attention. —DIYeditor (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
- I am new to Wikipedia and I am not fully aware of all the rules and I don't want my edits to be included in the puppet category as this is the first topic I have been very interested in. All my edits on this article and the Talk page can be identified as 94.198.190.54 prior to signing up just now.
- On the grounds that the article has recently been bombarded with actions undertaken by "alternative accounts". Editors in good standing are welcome to comment of course. If you observe the recent edit history of the article you might conclude that WP:IAR applies in this case. Besides, it hasn't proved necessary, so far.... I trust you are not encouraging said socks to re-engage. Ben MacDui 07:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
I want my vote to go towards the excluding the Scots Gaelic name from the main sections. How do it go about doing this and for it to be regarded as legitimate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FarronDep (talk • contribs) 16:12, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Summary[edit]
The limited participation in this discussion notwithstanding the conclusions are:
- The names that should appear in the lead are the English language "Orkney" and the Old Norse Orkneyar per MOS:FORLANG.
- The Infobox should contain the English language name, Orkneyar, and the modern Gaelic name Arcaibh. The “Meaning of name” parameter should state “Possibly from a Pictish tribal name meaning ‘young pig’ <reference> (or similar - depending on the best evidence available).
- The etymology section can include a full exploration of the archipelago's names and their derivations.
I will modify the article to state this asap. Ben MacDui 12:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made under a separate heading on this page.
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