Talk:Ottoman Empire

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Former good article Ottoman Empire was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
On this day...Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive Article milestones
Date Process Result
August 15, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
May 4, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
August 7, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted
December 17, 2008 Peer review Reviewed
February 1, 2012 Peer review Reviewed
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on October 29, 2004, October 29, 2005, and October 29, 2006.
Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive This article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of April 2, 2006.
Current status: Delisted good article


"the Empire was able to largely hold its own during the conflict"[edit]

Last paragraph of the intro.

It really wasn't, it had been defeated in a series of battles with British Empire forces staring down their gun barrels from Aleppo. It had for all intents and purposes been defeated militarily in WW1. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.185.245 (talk) 20:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)


"Persianate"[edit]

Could the anonymous editor, with quotes, explain how his sources support the claim, which he is trying to place at the very top of the lead paragraph, that the Ottoman Empire was "Persianate"? It's one thing to note the existence of certain aspects of Persianate culture in the empire in the appropriate sub-sections, but you're making an extremely generalized claim about the entire empire, across its entire 600-year history, which can very easily give readers a highly misleading impression.Chamboz (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

The organization, bureaucracy, hictorical accounts, traditions, poetry, court system of the Ottomans belongs to the Persiante society. Nearly all Ottoman sultans were master in Persian poetry. The official name of the empire, "Devlet-i Aliyye-i Osmaniyye" is in Persian Grammar. Ottoman Empire contributed more to Persian culture than many Iranian dynasties.
So.. no quotes from sources? No historians who refer to the empire as Persianate? Just your interpretation, which seeks to characterize the entire empire unreservedly as Persianate, in the process ignoring all the other cultural influences that existed? Nope, not getting added. Chamboz (talk) 17:49, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I added the reliable sources. You are free to read it. Also you just asked 3 questions but nothing on facts and sources.
No, it's your job to demonstrate how your sources support the claim you want to make, especially considering the extremely general nature of your claim, and the prominent place you want it to have in the article. Chamboz (talk) 17:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
My job is done. I placed the reliable sources in the article. Now your turn! Just read the sources. You act like you own this article. You can't ignore the reliable sources. Please be honest.
That's not how it works and you know it. Just because you've cited sources doesn't mean that everyone else has to take hours out of their lives to locate and read them all if they want to challenge you, otherwise I could write anything I want while citing several hard-to-access books and tell people that they can't challenge me until they've tracked down and read them all. You want to make an inclusion to the article, so you have to justify it. Supposedly you've read these sources, so can you please provide quotations from them demonstrating how they support the claim you want to make. Chamboz (talk) 18:25, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Please gain consensus here before making such a radical change to the opening sentence of the article. You have added sources, but they are all from a single POV that is not supported in the rest of the article. Per WP:BRD, the burden is on the editor adding new material to gain consensus, and we revert to the status ante during the discussion. Please stop adding content that you know is under dispute and current discussion. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:10, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @ Mr. IP (194.135.154.224 (talk · contribs)), you need to understand that, no matter whether you're actually right or wrong, edit-warring is never the solution. From what I can see, you initiated it, so please pay attention in the future. Having said that, WP:GF assumed, this matter is taken far too light for a really long time now. Though I concur with Chamboz's revert, the leading culture of the Ottoman Empire, represented by the Ottoman dynasty, was definitely Persianate for centuries. In fact, the whole basis of the empire is shrouded in this particular air. Organization, bureaucracy, poetry, hictorical accounts, traditions, miniatures, court system, the language of the elite/court, are just some points and defining "pillars" that come to mind. This is something that can't overlooked, and a plethora of sources are out there to remember us of that;

  • "The Ottomans, Safawids and Mughals were steeped in the same Persianate-Islamic culture and shared Persian as their common language." -- Wink, Andre. In "India and Indonesia, during the Ancien Regime". Marshall & van Niel, et al. BRILL. p. 50.
  • "(...) and became one of the most influential handbooks of Islamic teachings in the Persianate world, from the Ottoman Empire through Iran, India, and Central Asia." -- The Sage Learning of Liu Zhi: Islamic Thought in Confucian Terms. (2009). Murata et al., Harvard University Asia Center . p. 4
  • "(...) and the attraction of this renaissance of Persian culture under Turkish political hegemony strongly influenced the Ottoman court, with echoes of that influence felt up to the 19th century. --The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol. VIII, page 211.
  • "Throughout the 16th century, then, Ottoman literature and culture was still considerably influenced by the Turco-Persian literature flourishing in the courts of Khurasan and Samarkand, while themes from everyday life inevitably crept into them as well; furthermore, Ottoman society, was beginning to be influenced by the West, without being fully aware of it." -- The Encyclopaedia of Islam, Vol VIII, page 214, Gonul Alpay Tekin.
  • "In contrast, the interesting thing about Ottoman written culture is that although Ottoman Turkish was intimately linked with Persian throughout its existence, although Ottoman scribes based their organization and culture on that of Persian scribes, and although Persian literature and documents formed the most important models for those of the Ottomans, the Ottoman written language was not at all stable or unchanging." -- Ottoman Turkish: Written language and Scribal Practice, 13th to 20th Centuries, Linda T. Darling, Literacy in the Persianate World:Writing and the Social Order, ed. Brian Spooner and William L. Hanaway, page 171,
  • "In a way, Ottoman resembled Latin as used in medieval or early modern Europe. It supplanted Persian, which had served as the literary language of the cultured upper classes during the first three centuries of the empire. The style of the poetry also resembled that of Persian." -- M. Sukru Hanioglu, A Brief History of the Late Ottoman Empire, page 35
  • "The bond deepened despite the fact that the foundations of Ottoman society seemed so Asiatic (Turkoman, Persianate, and Arab)."" -- Goffman, Daniel (2002). Cambridge University Press. pp 64-65
  • "However, Persian maintained its position also during the early Ottoman period in the composition of histories, and even Sultan Salim I(r.1512-20), a bitter enemy of Iran and the Shi'ites, wrote poetry in Persian." -- Bertold Spuler, Persian Historiography & Geography, page 68-69.

- LouisAragon (talk) 21:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I absolutely agree that the (very significant) influence of Persian culture on the Ottomans deserves mention, but this sort of thing is easy to overstate. Persian was a major literary language within the empire, but was never the only such language, and it gave way to Turkish over the course of the 16th century. Ottoman rulers and the elite spoke Turkish, not Persian. Ottoman bureaucracy and administration, while it certainly drew on Persian antecedents to a significant degree, also drew on other antecedents and developed its own synthesis. The situation is not comparable to, say, the Mughal Empire, in which Persian was the primary court language and the language of administration throughout its entire existence. In the Ottoman Empire, the language spoken at court was Turkish and administrative documents were written in Turkish. Persian culture had a major role in Ottoman history, but it should be emphasized in context and not through generalizations, with attention paid to change over time. Chamboz (talk) 23:53, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
@Chamboz: Sorry, had completely forgotten about this talk page section. I agree with basically everything you said. The only point I believe is not entirely correct, is your statement that "Ottoman rulers and the elite spoke Turkish, not Persian". Though Persian was indeed not a majority language of the elite/court, they did speak and use it, at least for a considerable amount of time;
  • "Persian served as a minority prestige language of culture at the largely Turcophone Ottoman court." -- Yarshater, Ehsan, ed. (2012). A history of Persian literature (Vol. X). Chapter; Persian historiography. I.B.Tauris. p. 438
  • "With the rise of the Ottoman state, Persian gave way to Ottoman Turkish as the primary language of the literate classes in Anatolia, and it spread with the conquests into the Balkans. Nonetheless, Persian remained in vogue in the Ottoman court well into the sixteenth century." -- Masters, Bruce. (2013). The Arabs of the Ottoman Empire, 1516–1918: A Social and Cultural History. Cambridge University Press. p. 107
Now, having settled the matter; would you perhaps be willing to propose a line that we could add to the lede, that would summarize the entire thing? - LouisAragon (talk) 14:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Request for protection of the article: Ottoman Empire[edit]

Ottoman Empire[edit]

Semi-protection: High level of IP vandalism. 66.133.78.102 (talk) 13:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Because, to prevents edits from IP editors to validate about Turkey and Muslims.

Requests for page protection should be made at WP:RPP. Eperoton (talk) 16:15, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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The name of the Ottoman Turkish language removed[edit]

Why has the name of the language ("Ottoman Turkish") been removed from the part where the name of the empire in it is given? Is it controversial or what?--Adûnâi (talk) 00:13, 14 February 2018 (UTC)