Talk:Our Lady of Fátima
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on May 13, 2006, May 13, 2007, May 13, 2008, May 13, 2009, May 13, 2010, May 13, 2013, and May 13, 2015.|
- 1 Sufi
- 2 Non-Christian (non-Catholic?) POV
- 3 Children photograph
- 4 Hallucination?
- 5 Detention
- 6 William Walsh book is unreliable source
- 7 Prodigy of the Sun
- 8 3rd Secret
- 9 Artur v. Arturo
- 10 Don't edit wikipedia to prove a point Diligens
- 11 Merge of separate secrets page
- 12 Aljustrel
- 13 Fatimah is Fatima; but the Sun of Fatima is the Lamb of Fatimah
- 14 Some info for those who actually take this silly story as fact
- 15 actual dates of secrets
- 16 Photo format?
- 17 Names of the children in the lead
- 18 Possible official explanation about Third Secret of Fatima
- 19 Credibility of the Fatima Apparitions
- 20 Water cooler discussions
- 21 A question Before the "event" at Fatima Any other "events" there?
- 22 Cell Definition?
- 23 "Fire in the Skies Event"
- 24 Secrets and prophecies
- 25 POV
- 26 Letters
- 27 The 'Third Secret of Fatima' announces the coming of Messianic Reign
- 28 Isn't this original research?
- 29 Fate of the three children
- 30 What this article is quoting for the 2nd secret
- 31 Orphaned references in Our Lady of Fátima
- 32 Introduction
- 33 "The apparition is also referred to as Our Lady of the Rosary"
- 34 date of liturgical commemoration
As one who believes that providence manifest itself differently at different time it behooves us to investigate fatimah and the fact that it was a center for Muslim pilgrimmage and worship long before 1917; the "Miracle" of fatimah is that the "Sun of Faith" was manifested to begin the Last Judgment in a unprecedented way; the 3 children being the "Bab" or "Gate of Heaven" by which only those who believe in them can enter the Kingdom; whether Jew; Christian or Muslim. Thus we are saved by our faith alone in this respect: although to see the 3 children as the 3 tiered "Door of Noah" we must lookk at the present day "Ark of Salvation" in light of the old one: whoso entered that Door escaped the Flood; those who enter this "Gate" escape the Wrath of the Lamb. Furthermore the "Pearl of Great Price" happens to be "the Gate of Heaven". For thoses who would dispute these simple facts please contact me or write your comments here. What I have added is therefore valid as being the view held by my church> please let it remain in the interests of Equality and scholarship between the religions in the aspect of their Unity; the Fruit of the Tree of Life.Unicorn144 13:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Non-Christian (non-Catholic?) POV
In general the article gives us the basic facts. I was the one who added the final sentence and the link to more information about the visions. Remember that not all people accept the Fatima apparitions as scientific facts.
I have decided to get rid of the link to my own writing on the visions and the secret, which I have also eliminated from the encyclopedia. I will keep it on the WWW for those who would like to have a non-Christian perspective. Portcult 11:54, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I improved the last paragraph and added the non-Christian point of view. I hope you are not angry, but not everyone believes in Fatima.Portcult 21:58, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Who cares what the "non-Christian" point of view is? Why would pagans or Islamists or Jews care about this subject matter anyway? Why don't they concentrate on their own religious minded articles and stop giving their views on things that frankly don't concern them? Digby
- Try finding out wher the name "fatimah" originaly comes from...--Striver 01:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- He probably means non-religious viewpoint, which I must agree this article sorely lacks. Even some Christians are extremely skeptical of the Fatima apparitions, notably Father Mário Oliveira, who denounces them as a hoax perpetrated by certain elements of the Catholic Church to explore the fears of an illiterate population in reaction to the war, the newly-founded Portuguese Republic and especially the rise of Communism in Russia. --Goblin ›talk 22:27, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
- I really don't understand why articles about religious events need to include a non-religious viewpoint. Fatima is a historical event, whether or not the children's claims were real. They reported visions and people showed up and claimed the sun did thus and so. The children's detention and questioning by authorities was real. The kids predicted their own deaths and while that may have been something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, it did happen. Reporting on the historical facts should be enough, or am I not getting something?
- That said, I have been hearing about this Fr. Oliveira for months now and I have yet to see anything he actually wrote, only brief quotes in the London Times and so forth. Where can I read his denunciations? --Bluejay Young 08:43, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
- Many articles on religious events need to include non-religious viewpoints because those viewpoints exist, and the Fatima apparitions are sufficiently controversial (at least in Portugal, I don't know how others see it) to warrant mention of dissenting views. Just because many events surrounding it were historical, it doesn't mean the apparitions themselves were real or that the hubbub they generated wasn't exploited in any way. --Goblin ›talk 00:36, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
- I've removed the POV that I found, and most of them had no factual information, rather it had what (some) people think. But if there is a good scientifical article, we should include it. it was not the case.-Pedro 10:38, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A somewhat bigoted viewpoint. The job of an encyclopedia is to give the facts - as far as they can be established, which is difficult in this case - and give the most common interpretations. Oddly enough, if this is a genuine miracle, I think people of all religions and none would think it important, as it would be pretty conclusive evidence of the truth of Catholic doctrine. I wouldn't hold my breath though.- Exile 22:09, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that we shouldn't present them as scientific facts--I do my best to be respectful to large amounts of what I consider to be mystical nonsense, in pursuit of Wikipedia NPOV--and also that linking to our own writings is a bad idea. Vicki Rosenzweig 22:02, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Portcult, your info (on your own page) is invaluable whether a person believes in Fatima or not and I linked to your O Seculo reprint. It's perfectly okay to report things and simply say "People believe this happened". --Bluejay Young 01:18, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
With all of this discussion of the Christian and non-Christian POV, I think I should throw in here that most of this is the Catholic POV, which is only one denomination of Christianity, not the overall Christian view. The Lutheran and Protestant denominations have a very different view of much of what Catholics believe. --Highlander3751 01:01, May 13 2006 (UTC)
I think this photo, http://www.amigosdenossasenhora.hpg.ig.com.br/lucia_fran_jac.jpg, is fascinating. It would be a good adiction to this article. What do you think?
- Ah, that's one of the three famous shots. Probably taken sometime in 1918. There were two others that I think were taken in the summer of 1917. I think this may be the earliest one: http://img.cancaonova.com/noticias/noticia/233311.jpg (Fixed! 2010-05-01 --Bluejay Young (talk) 19:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC))
- Here's another: http://www.sacred-destinations.com/portugal/images/fatima/resized/children-with-rosaries-1917-jacinta-lucia-francisco-wp-pd.jpg (Fixed! 2010-05-01 --Bluejay Young (talk) 19:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC))
- Looking at Jacinta, this had to have been taken sometime after the July vision. The look in that child's eyes speaks volumes about that image of hell. According to contemporary accounts, she was completely obsessed by the idea and threw all her energy into prayer and sacrifice to save the souls of sinners from eternal damnation. She was anorexic and constantly self-mortified. Not surprisingly, she had a number of visions not shared by the others. As she described them, they sound like images of WWI refugees.
- Note that Lucia's hair is cut very short; that is not for the summer heat, but because as she pushed through the crowd to get to the apparition site, people would clip locks of her hair. Her scarves and ribbons were repeatedly snatched off her head and pieces of her clothing were cut off. --Bluejay Young 23:06, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
- Well, the people who did that are burning in hell now. That'll teach 'em to steal from a little girl. Nelson Ricardo 16:17, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
- Ricardo you must understand the culture, they were already seen as saints and people wanted something. She never talked about that, and she probably understood it. In Portuguese there is the expression Sabes mais que a Lúcia (you know more than Lucia) when someone knows something and he doesnt want to tell you, or want to cheat you. The name Fatima of the village, now a town, derives from a Moorish princess that when the area was being conquered by the Portuguese, she prefered to kill herself than be a prisioner of Christians, she fell from her castle's tower. In honour to her bravery, the Portuguese name it Fatima - her name. This is the version often used by a famous Portuguese historian. -Pedro 16:40, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- She probably did understand it, although her mother about had a fit whenever it happened (Her mother also didn't believe a word about the visions and thought Lucia put her cousins up to it.) Portuguese village girls and women of that time were known to keep a lot to themselves. Lucia's Aunt Olimpia was a prime example of the type, and Lucia was notorious for it -- especially if she were being pushed or pressured to reveal something, she'd shut up like a clam. This is all documented in William T. Walsh's book, which is where I got a lot of the info I used in this article. --Bluejay Young 09:45, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
Again, why do there have to be links to things like "hallucination" and "folie a deux"? Such links do not contribute to NPOV; they merely present a POV. NPOV is "Bernadette said the lady appeared" or "Lucia reported that Mary told her whatever." The place to put detractions on Fatima is in the external links (where there are some). I realize this is a highly debatable issue. I myself am interested in primary source facts on Fatima which are not hagiographized as Lucia's (writing about her cousins) and William Thomas Walsh's were. I'm interested in the fact that Lucia's mother, an intelligent and literate woman who taught Catechism to every kid in Aljustrel, never could quite bring herself to believe that her youngest and favourite daughter had actually had this experience and in fact began to treat Lucia very badly out of a belief that she was lying, while Lucia's paternal cousins were supported and believed by their parents. But none of this stuff belongs in Wikipedia, it belongs in discussions elsewhere. I'm removing those links. --Bluejay Young 19:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The para about the children being detained by provincial administrator Arturo dos Santos is not one of the "controversies of Fatima". It is part of the detailed story of what actually happened. However as the article leaves out a lot of that detail, I'm not sure it belongs here at all. But certainly not where it is now. JackofOz 02:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- I put it under "controversies" because it was part of the political aspects of Fatima -- in that Arturo kidnapped and questioned the kids for political reasons. It shows just how political Fatima was from the outset. I think it should be moved rather than deleted altogether, let's see how it looks under the main part of the story. --Bluejay Young 16:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
- There is some allegation that the children were abducted and it adds a masonic twist to it: http://www.fatima.org/essentials/opposed/seerkidn.asp --126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
William Walsh book is unreliable source
I have read Walsh's book and have tried to substantiate his sources by accessing newspaper archives directly. I have found his sources to be fabrications. The same is true for his other books, such as Philip II. He is an unreliable propogandist for the religious right wing in the Catholic Church and purposely uses false sources to mislead his readers. Many of the other claims in this article come from equally unreliable sources designed to give a religious POV rather than historical accuracy. For example, the only sources about the predictions made by the BVM appear in the 1940s, after these events had taken place (revolution in Russia, deaths of two children, WWII, etc.) Also, I have found no pre-WWII sources to verify the so called solar phenomenon, or that there were 70,000 witnesses. If someone has even one contemporary (1917) article that discusses these events and predictions, please scan and post the original. As per the O Seculo article, I notice that it is a translation of a reprint. It is interesting that nobody ever provides the originals of these articles, considering the amount of fraudulent data floating around the Internet. I personally doubt the O Seculo article is authentic. Dtaw2001 16:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Prodigy of the Sun
Pat, you object to this:
- Many ... of those present ... claimed to have seen the visible prodigy of the sun, including the man who photographed the reaction of the crowd.
and prefer this:
- No one present ... is reported to have denied the visible prodigy of the sun that day, including also the man who photographed the reaction of the crowd.
My question is, where is the documentation for nobody denying the event. Was every person there asked what they, personally, saw? Billions of people have failed to deny that I am from Mars, but this absence of denial does not make it true that I am from Mars. The way this para now reads is that the miracle is taken to be true unless anyone denies it. This hardly meets any test of objectivity.
Also, in relation to the photographer, the sense of the text has been radically altered. Before, we were told that he claimed to have seen it. Now, we're told he's just one of the thousands who did not deny seeing it. It makes no sense any more to single him out. Very, very different slant. JackofOz 03:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Jack, It is true that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is reported as denying the visible prodigy of the sun that day. Every reader knows that not all 70,000 witnesses could be interviewed. When absolutely all who could be located and interviewed claimed they did see, it is less revealing and potentionally misleading to say that only "many" saw (that could be construed as implying that some may have reported not seeing). The significant fact that NO ONE is reported as denying the visible prodigy of the sun that day should be mentioned in the article on Fatima, as it is the most revealing truth. That is a particularly good idea as it discourages the enemies of truth on the internet who circulate their newly invented and unsubstantiated allegations (and even put them in Wikipedia, see Portcult) that not all of those present saw the prodigy of the sun that day, when their are absolutely no reports whatsoever to back up their malicious (and sometimes elaborate) inventions. The most revealing truth should be in Wikipedia, and my statement is true. If the truth bothers you, it is probably because you do not believe in Fatima to begin with. As to my comment about the photographer, I mentioned him in particular only because I was correcting the previously false statement. Now that the truth has been entered into the record, that particular mention can probably be fairly dropped as he is included in the statement that there are no reports of anyone denying the visible prodigy of the sun.
pat8722 04:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Pat, before we go any further, can I just ask you to please refrain from making assumptions about my personal beliefs. I strive to be objective here at all times, no matter what I may happen to believe or not believe. I heartily recommend you do the same.
- But since you've raised the subject, may I take it that you do believe in Fatima? And may I take it that your writing about it is imbued with that belief, and therefore not expressing a neutral point of view (NPOV)? That is what appears to be the case here. There seems to be an underlying assumption that the prodigy of the sun was a real and true event. I'm not necessarily denying that it really happened, but Wikipedia is not here to record the private beliefs of invidividuals. There is no general acceptance that it was a real and true event, and until there is such general acceptance, what individuals believe about it is an entirely private and subjective matter. This encyclopedia reports what is agreed to have objectively happened, not what individuals privately believe. Yes, we can report that people believe certain things, but that is very different from reporting (or even suggesting by implication) that those things are true in themselves.
- I made the point above that absence of denial does not equate to agreed truth. That 50,000 people did not deny it is not something that objectively happened. It is the reverse of an occurrence. It is no different from my previous Martian example, and has no more place here.
- You asked the previous editor to come up with documentation for the statement that some, but not all, claimed to see it. I apply the same standard to you. Where is your documentation that nobody denied it? Perhaps you would argue that ipso facto no such documentation exists, so how could you possibly be expected to produce it. And that's exactly my point. Wikipedia is all about having verifiable content, based on published material. JackofOz 04:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Jack, I am not saying the prodigy of the sun did or did not occur. I am just saying that of those interviewed there are no reports of anyone denying it. The truth is always objective. The key point is that you have not denied the truth of my statement that - "No one present on October 17, 1917 is reported to have denied the visible prodigy of the sun that day." You just don't like that particular truth. It is not the role of wikipedia editors to censor truth, particularly not a truth that has been repeatedly denied by malicious hackers in wikipedia, who make no attempt to produce citations as the rules of wikipedia require. Fatima has been exhaustively researched by many. John DeMarchi spent 7 years in Fatima during the 1940's interviewing the principles at undisturbed length and researching the original documents. While for the past apparations at Fatima he was able to locate both third and first person accounts that some had not witnessed all, or even any, atmospheric changes and visual images that others had reported seeing at the apparitions prior to October 13, try though he did for seven years onsite and for the rest of his years offsite, he could not locate any first or third person accounts of a failure to see the visible prodigy of the sun on October 13. It was not for lack of trying that there are no reports of anyone denying the visible prodigy of the sun that day. Such a significant truth belongs in wikipedia.
pat8722 16:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- There were ten of thousands of people who witnessed this occurrence. It has indisputably occurred. The anti-Catholic press of that day, who ridiculed the events leading up to October 13th, 1917, plainly publicized in O Saeculo that it occurred. People who came to scoff saw the very same thing as the believers. Just think about it, merely two witnesses is enough to put a man on death row in a court of law, and yet here we are talking about thousands! If 20 people are at a murder scene and 19 testify the same thing, and one person says he saw nothing, the 19 is what is called positive evidence, and the person who saw nothing is considered unreliable, or negative evidence. Any two people who never collaborated and testify to the same event, is concerned solid proof. I met a woman myself who witnessed the event. If one would like to believe it was a swirl of cosmic gasses that refracted the light and created a spectrum, they will still have to explain how an occurrence, unheard of in the annals of human history, was predicted months beforehand by three poor Portuguese shepherd children who said a woman appeared an told them there would be a "miracle" on that day....and they were correct to the very hour?! A most peculiar fact - scientists admit it has occurred, but they betray their profession by excluding the occurrence from their list of empirical evidence. :Diligens 17:52, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Pat and Diligens, I also am not denying that anything occurred. That is not the issue here. What is reported to have occurred is given plenty of coverage in the very long paragraph about the miracle. That is all that is necessary. It is not necessary to labour the point by saying that nobody is known to have denied it.
- Another reason that this sentence is inappropriate is that we already say the 3 children did not see the miracle, but instead saw saints etc. So, if the 3 principals did not claim to see it, this does not sit well with nobody denying it.
- But most importantly, I reiterate my previous challenge to abide by Wikipedia rules and produce verifiable content, based on published material. That nobody is known to have denied the miracle is, at the moment, just your say so, and qualifies as original research, which is banned on Wikipedia. Please provide the details of a published document that says "nobody present is known to have denied it". Until you can come up with that, I will continue to remove this sentence. Cheers JackofOz 22:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough. It doesn't alter the fact of the occurrence either way. Diligens 01:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I was the first person to put in that not everybody present saw exactly the same thing, and I got that from O Seculo: "And next they ask each other if they have seen or not seen. Most confess that that they have seen the dancing of the sun; others, however, declare they have seen the smiling face of the Virgin herself. They swear that the sun spun about itself like a ring of fireworks, that it came down almost to the point of burning the Earth with its rays. Some say they saw it change color..." In the film version, everybody sees the same thing, but at that point it would have taken away from the climactic impact of the scene if they'd been strictly accurate. Bluejay Young 00:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
- You have not cited a source for "some people didn't see it (the dancing of the sun)". To state that most "confessed" to having seen it, does not imply that some confessed to not seeing it. That some declared that they had seen the smiling face of the Virgin, does not mean that they also claimed to not having seen the dancing of the sun. pat8722 03:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
- That is a good point. The way he wrote it, with that "however", is a little misleading. I need to read all of De Marchi. Bluejay Young 08:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
- I have corrected the article to state that the children, themselves, also saw the dancing of the sun. I reread the children's 1917 testimony on that point, as documented by De Marchi. Sorry for my earlier error on that point. pat8722 04:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The actual text of the third secret is not quoted. The part on controversies around it is mostly pure uninformed speculation. A nice cleanup and npoving is needed, imho. --BBird 12:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Artur v. Arturo
Mistico has twice changed Adminstrator Santo's first name from "Arturo" to "Artur" in this article, based apparently on nothing more than a claimed general personal familiarity with portuguese vs castillian names. Santos's first name as being "Arturo" is widely documented in the available Fatima literature, and has been consistently recognized as "Arturo" for about 88 years. Unless Mistico or someone else has a wiki-qualified publication that shows the Administrator went by the name "Artur" we have no choice but leave it as "Arturo". While the sources for "Arturo" are probably in the hundreds, I will list just one here, as no credible challenge to it has been raised. Stanley Jaki God and the Sun at Fatima (1999) Real View Books, Michigan, p15
- I´m from Portugal, so I now a bit more about my own language than you, and in a while I will prove you the real name of the man was Artur dos Santos. User:Mistico
- I would not doubt for a minute that they got some of the names wrong. Lucia herself pointed out in one of her memoirs that her surname was Santos, and not dos Santos. I'd be interested to know why early accounts got the family name as Abobora (Pumpkin). --Bluejay Young 22:48, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for explaining that. --Bluejay Young 17:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the snark by Joe Nickell. Substituted a summary of what critics speculate about the alleged solar event. --Bluejay Young 17:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Don't edit wikipedia to prove a point Diligens
I dont have much to say to you, obviously you are going to try a PoV edit on this article. JPII had a specific devotion to Fatima. Of course you would like to excise him as you have done elsewhere. Dominick (TALK) 14:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- You are going to have to discuss it. This is WP policy. How does adding that a clergyman had special personal devotion to Our Lady of Fatiima, fit into the category of the official position of the Catholic Church, that was already established decades ago? Should we then add the names of other prominent clergyman and Catholic laity who also had this special devotion? (Diligens 14:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
- Who is dominating? I say one thing, you respond. That is called a discussion. And a discussion even between 2 people is fully WP policy. You didn't answer my question. How does the addition fit into the category of official Church policy? You are required by WP policy to discuss it. Maybe you want to put it in another place, but frankly, this is an article about the Blessed Virgin Mary from 1917. Not about people 75 years later who had a devotion to her, which is the majority of Catholics, by the way. (Diligens 15:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
- Fine. It looks like it belongs there.
- Yes, according to official WP policy you have to discuss with the person for whose edit you dispute. And from what I have seen you are starting to assume bad faith in me by your comments, which is a violation of WP. And you very frequently don't give responses to points in a discussion, which is also violation. You are interested in things Catholic and traditional, as well as I, so you will have to face the fact that we will be involved in the same articles very often. (Diligens 16:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC))
Merge of separate secrets page
FYI, there is another page entitled the Three Secrets of Fatima. Is it worth splitting this concept out to a separate page, or should its info be checked and merged into this one so it can be changed to a simple redirect? --Elonka 20:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have added "merge" templates to the top of both pages. What do people think? Keep them separate, or merge together? --Elonka 17:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- oppose (not a strong opposition though) you can develop both article a lot more than they are currently. If someone dues that, you'll have to spit them again. There are books only about the secrets (I used to have one, dont know where I put it) and with alien and other conspiracies, etc... --Pedro 18:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- oppose As Pedro points out, many books and much discussion center on the three secrets only, therefore the three secrets are a topic in their own right. A brief description of the three secrets is appropriate here, with presentations of the detail and controversies surrounding them on their own page. Small article size is encouraged in wikipedia. We want to keep articles from becoming too confused and lengthy. pat8722 15:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- oppose Actually my feeling is closer to "Enh." I don't care that much one way or the other, but I would sooner see "Three Secrets" kept separate because there's just a lot there. It might make the Fatima article so long that people wouldn't want to read it. --Bluejay Young 13:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose There are plenty of people who find Fatima to be important who do not believe that there is any controversy over the third secret. JASpencer 20:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- Strong oppose - the secrets deserve their own subpage.--File Éireann 22:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we remove this? JASpencer 18:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think so. If there's objections I'll be happy to put it back. --Bluejay Young 06:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
There is ther widespread misconception that the place of Aljustrel where the family lived is the Town of Aljustrel. This is wrong, the mining town of Aljustrel is 200km away from Fátima,_Portugal and unrelated to the "visions".
I'll create a separate entry for that place. JGuerreiro 20:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Aljustrel described in De Marchi and Walsh was a wide spot in the road whose main residents were probably families who owned the fields in and around the Cova. It has probably been completely swallowed up by nearby Fatima since the visitations. --Bluejay Young 15:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Fatimah is Fatima; but the Sun of Fatima is the Lamb of Fatimah
I respectfully would like to add a little section with the controversy dealing with the fact that the Messiah of Islam is also that Sun of Righteousness seen at Fatima as the emanation of Fatimah al-Zahra; the Son of Mary who Muhmammed said would be the Messiah; the Rod of Iron being this Christ of Islam; the Mahdi of Christianity; "one and the same". This controversy is just starting; but I will just represent the facts. Unicorn144 14:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Some info for those who actually take this silly story as fact
- - Joe Nickell of the CSICOP throws common sense cold water on the Fatima - claims. "We know for a fact that the sun did not dance or pulsate at Fatima. - How do we know this? Fatima does not have a different sun than the sun that's - in Chicago , or the sun over Paris. It's the same sun. And astronomers know - that the sun on that date did not do anything out of the ordinary." - Nickell explains that the witnesses "did do out-of-the ordinary things, like - staring at the sun", which would explain the visions and colors. As far as - Lucia's claims go, Nickell believes that she "suffers from what psychologists - call "fantasy proneness"." Nickell notes that, long before the Virgin Mary - spoke to her, Lucia had imaginary playmate angels." - - A little skepticism can go a long way... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This keeps getting deleted, obviously by some religious nut. There are no criticisms here and the article is so biased that it is laughable. Both sides of the story should be presented, and not just a pro-christian viewpoint.
- I have been deleting it and I am not religious at all. In fact, I am highly skeptical of any miraculous claims. There are a couple of reasons why I have removed this passage. First, an encyclopedia article should take a neutral stance. The first sentence in this paragraph is not a neutral statement of fact but a particular point of view. Secondly, there is an entire article devoted to The Miracle of the Sun which includes criticisms of the event, including those by Nickell. And that is where it belongs. Therefore, even if the paragraph was amended to be neutral I still think it is too much detail for this article, which simply contains a short summary. Albie34423 (talk) 01:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- That's the problem, the article is NOT neutral. Both views need to be presented, including the common sense side. Nowhere in the article does it mention how Lucia had imaginary playmates angels, or how her own mother said she was a liar, etc etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 02:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
actual dates of secrets
In every account of the "secrets" I've read none of them are committed to paper or even revealed by Lucia to anyone until 1942 which make the prophecy regarding Russia and WWII rather unremarkable. I'm surprised this is never pointed out in any articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:55, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I remember when that movie came out. It was playing at the "itch" theater in the Bronx. The nuns marched all of us off to see the movie. We had to sit through all of it without popcorn or bon bons -- can you imagine? But the sun spinning in the sky was pretty cool. I would have prefered seeing it with popcorn.
The top photo went away somehow, maybe deleted from commons. There seems to be an unusual format issue here because I tried to add another photo from Wikicommons and that does not work either. Any ideas? History2007 (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Names of the children in the lead
I added the names of the children to the lead, since it's an important piece of information. Another thing: I´m not quite sure the portuguese name Lucia should be written with an accent on the "u". Please prove me wrong. Infrasonik (talk) 17:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- Several forms of the spelling all link to the same page about Lúcia Santos. I added the link and a photo. History2007 (talk) 20:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Possible official explanation about Third Secret of Fatima
On July 2nd 1989, in Las Vegas, Nevada was held a MUFON Conference, where for first time an ex-intelligence high positioned official (William Milton Cooper) had been speaking about "alien problem" , and for first time it was mentioned that US intelligence agents at last penetrated in Vatican, among other things, to find out what exactly Third Fatima Secret is. At this occasion Cooper explained that this "secret" actually is one of biggest reasons for vigorous preventing by Vatican of alien reality to be revealed to common people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Credibility of the Fatima Apparitions
A discussion of the credibility of the Fatima apparitions often revolves about the October 1917 Miracle of the Sun. Although the sun manifestation was witnessed by some 70,000 people, it was clearly not an objective physical phenomenon. If we rely upon contemporary newspaper accounts, the only physically verifiable fact was the cessation of the rain at noon and the sudden drying of the rain-drenched field where the manifestation occurred. When the Tunguska meteorite exploded over Siberia in June 1908, scientific instrumentation thousands of miles away registered the barometric shockwave. No observatories recorded any unusual sun phenomena on October 13, 1917, and there are no photographs to document what witnesses saw in the sky at Fatima. The Miracle of the Sun must, therefore, have been apprehended only mentally and thus becomes open to the charge of being a mass delusion.
Even mass delusions, however, must be explained. Almost all documented examples of mass delusion take place among small, tightly knit groups in enclosed settings such as schools, factories, convents and orphanages. Moreover, newspaper reports make clear that many who saw something in the sky viewed the goings on from an anti-clerical and markedly skeptical perspective. Mass delusions among large groups of diverse people are not that easy to create and are almost unknown among persons indisposed to the vision. For instance in mid-nineteenth century America, the Millerites predicted the Second Coming and had large groups of faithful followers watch all night in anticipation on the event. Nevertheless, none of these followers, despite many having sold all their possessions in preparation of the event, saw anything. The only case of alleged mass delusion that has any marked similarity to the Fatima manifestation is the series of apparitions that took place at Zeitoun, Egypt from1968 to1971. Here more than 100,000 people reported observing the Virgin Mary above a Coptic Orthodox Church in a suburb of Cairo. These manifestations are perhaps even more inexplicable and difficult to classify as a purely mental affair because many pictures were taken showing the apparitions and the preponderance of the witnesses were non-Christian.
Any analysis of the credibility of the Fatima apparitions must concentrate on aspects of the apparitions that are historically verifiable through contemporary accounts. Fortunately, much documentation is available about the apparitions from such sources and many facts are completely verifiable. (See Documents on Fatima by Antonio Martins, S.J., English edition 1992) After the first apparition in May 1917 increasing numbers of people went to the Cova da Iria each month to see what would happen. The predicted miracle in October was attended by reporters from a number of secular newspapers, some of them quite hostile to the Church. So we know with great certainty that the apparitions spanned the critical six month period leading up to the Bolshevik seizure of power. It also seems that the message of the Virgin specifically emphasized this timing aspect. Reportedly the children were told in May that she would appear to them on six consecutive months and the last appearance would involve a great miracle. This is what the children told contemporary witnesses and this explains the great crowds present for the anticipated miracle in October.
The most convincing argument in support of the supernatural character of the Fatima apparitions was voiced on August 19, 1917 by Jose do Vale in a front page article in the Lisbon newspaper O Mundo after the children had been closely examined by local officials -- the children seemed too uneducated and unsophisticated to come up with, let alone remember and repeat with consistency, the ideas they described. (Martins, p. 97) The oldest of the children who received the messages was ten. The second aspect is the unusual emphasis on external world events in the alleged messages. Fatima in 1917 was a backwater in a relatively undeveloped part of Europe. Nevertheless, the children publicly linked the Virgin’s appearance to the ending of the war then being waged outside Portugal. Even contemporaries found this somewhat unusual. Gonçalo Garrett was a professor at the University of Coimbra and his family had witnessed several of the apparitions, but he remained puzzled about certain aspects of what the children said. He wrote in August 1918, “Why would the Virgin in Fatima, at the doorstep of Lisbon, make reference to the way that war is killing men in France, Russia, Italy, etc., and not to the Religious War in Portugal, the country that Fatima belongs to?” (Martins, p.192)
One can only suppose that the children were carefully coached to come up with their sophisticated message. But who would do the coaching? Very few people in the summer of 1917 had a realization of the radical changes about to occur in Russia. Arguably the only entity that had an appreciation of Lenin’s potential for mischief in Russia was the German High Command, which in the month preceding the beginning of the apparitions had arranged his passage across Europe in the famous ‘sealed train.’ Those most likely to coach the children would be Catholic clergy, but the Church was initially very suspicious of the three seers, especially before the validation provided by the October miracle. This would be only prudent since the Church was acutely aware of the fiasco that would occur if nothing happened after the multi-month build-up the children gave to the predicted miracle.
Moreover, the messages at Fatima don’t really fit then current Catholic practices and approaches. For example, the early appearances of the angel to the three children were surprisingly reminiscent of Orthodox Church practice. In one of his appearances in 1916, the Angel first prostrated himself before the consecrated elements in the Eastern manner and had the children repeat with him an invocation to the Trinity. He then administered the consecrated bread to Lucia and the wine to Jacinta and Francisco. This would have been in contravention to Roman Catholic practice at the time. None of the children had fasted and only Lucia had received her first holy communion. In any event, no lay person of whatever age would have been given the sanctified wine at that time. The Orthodox Church, however, always communicates under both the bread and wine and admits children to communion immediately after baptism. Most unusual was the repeated request for prayers for a non-Catholic country and the insistence that the consecration of Russia was to be ‘collegial.’ One has to await the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) before the official position of the Catholic Church would show similar ecumenical attitudes.
Whoever coached the children would thus have had to be exceptionally advanced in religious outlook and particularly politically farsighted. For these unlettered children to have had any appreciation of the portentous timing of the revelations and the importance of an Orthodox nation on the other side of the continent defies easy explanation. Even less probable is any appreciation of the geopolitical urgency of the months leading up to the Russian Revolution. A few weeks after the last apparition at Fatima, Lenin succeeded in founding the first Communist state and began the process of spreading revolution around the globe. Pretty lucky timing! Toroid (talk) 03:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your details about the angel's introducing the kids to Orthodox style is fascinating. I take your point about do Vale and Garrett's observations, but I think part of why it all seems so amazing is the underestimation of these "rural peasants" as if they were stupid or something or had never heard of events going on in the outside world. (The same thing is done in some biographies of the Bronte girls to make their writings look more amazing.) The Catholic Church, trying to make the messages at visitations look spontaneous, commonly degrades the visionaries' backgrounds to show that the visionary "couldn't possibly have heard of" whatever. Bill Walsh himself, no disbeliever, explains several points that negate this idea. Both of Lucia's parents could read. Lucia's mom taught catechism. Her reading consisted largely of the Bible and books about religion, but I suspect Lucia's dad (and probably Uncle Manuel, too) read the papers. There were several (not all secular-controlled). You can't tell me that those kids didn't hear about the Great War, especially after two of their brothers got drafted. I've always suspected that Lucia's dad wasn't the messed-up drunkard that hagiographic accounts make him out to be starting about this time, but hung out at the local tavern to hear and discuss news. He was in disfavor with Fatima devotees because he "didn't attend mass", but in reality he traveled several miles on Sunday to go to church in another town because he couldn't stand Fr. Ferreira. What else did he do and hear there? Also, Manuel had actually served in the army and seen the world outside the villages. Still, there are things that can't be accounted for, and we may never know all the facts. --Bluejay Young (talk) 18:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree we sometimes tend to underestimate children and other presumed unsophisticates like rural farm workers. On the other hand, we can easily romanticize and exaggerate the capabilities of rural farm workers and young children with a minimal education. In the compendium by Martins that I cited there are records of various interrogations with the children. There is no hint of any sophistication on their part. The children seem confused and somewhat bewildered by what they had experienced. There is a picture of the children in July just after the vision of hell and the two girls look really frightened. Even now in the era of mass communication and modern education, I defy you to ask the 10 year-old of your choice who or what Russia is. In her Memoirs Lucia admits that she thought the Lady was talking about a girl named Russia at first.
I will also grant that the children could have heard about the Great War but the point is that Portugal is not France. The battle lines were quite remote from rural Portugal. Why would children seize on this far away struggle and mention Russia as something important if they were concocting an apparition story? I think you have to look to some older, wiser coach for this level of sophistication. Perhaps the parish priest or school master would be reading the Lisbon papers and perhaps they could be sufficiently informed to emphasize the war and a country called Russia.
However, you have to put yourself back in time before the subsequent direction of events became clear to understand how perspicacious these concerns would have been in the summer of 1917. The fall of the Russian monarchy in March was generally greeted in the West as an optimistic development. The Czar was an autocrat and represented almost the antithesis of the values cherished in Western Europe and America. The Provisional government was sensible and moderate so why fear the future?
One only has to look at the lack of foresight manifested by the Great Powers with regard to the direction of events in Russia to grasp how politically astute the children or their coachers were in citing the war at this moment when it had just taken a perilous new course. In the spring of 1917, the Germans had decided on a desperate course of action to take Russia out of the war. In April 1917, the German ambassador in Copenhagen described the strategy: “It is now essential that we try to create the utmost chaos in Russia. To this end, we must avoid any appearance of interfering in the course of the Russian revolution. In my opinion, we must covertly do everything we can to deepen the differences between the moderate and the extreme parties, since it is definitely in our interest that the latter should win the upper hand: then another upheaval will be inevitable and will take forms which will shake the Russian state to its foundations.” (top secret communiqué to the German Foreign Ministry dated April 2, 1917, contained in Werner Hahlweg’s Lenins Rückkehr nach Russland 1917, Leiden 1957, p. 48)
In April the Germans arranged Lenin’s transport across Europe from his exile in Switzerland and entry into Russia to effect this strategy. The Allied intelligence services knew about this move but were unsure what action to take. The last country where the Allies could intervene before Lenin reached Russian territory was Sweden. Sir Esme Howard, the then British minister in Stockholm later recalled: “… for a hectic moment the Allied Ministers discussed whether they could not, with the help, naturally, of the Swedish authorities, hold up the arch-revolutionary on the way through. But the plan seemed impossible. It looked as if it might make the situation worse. Indeed, so far had the Revolution gone in Russia by that time that it appeared wiser to let things take their course rather than interfere in matters of which we were then practically ignorant.” (Lord Howard of Penrith, aka Esme Howard, Theatre of Life, London 1936, vol. ii, p. 264.)
So if the Allied Powers were unsure what Lenin’s entry into Russia meant, how did a bunch of kids in Portugal understand the danger the Russian people were then in? Toroid (talk) 01:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Again, interesting, and in my opinion also valid. But far fewer people read these talk pages than the article, so if you want to have the material read (which I assume to be the case since you spent significant effort typing it) it needs to have references, be Wikified and used in the page. I think that will improve the page. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 09:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Large portions of the predictions of these children especially Lucia may be postdictions. the predictions about Russia and the early deaths of Jacinta and Fransisco weren't published until 1941. They may have been written in the 30's. A close look at the different versions could tell people a lot about how mythology evolves. As far as I know the only predictions that were conclusively made ahead of time is that something would happen on the 13th of the month for 5 additional months. This is proven by the increased crowds and the newspaper articles. Something led these people to expect something to happen, and it did have a major impact on society regardless of the cause. Good day Zacherystaylor (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, the "postdiction" is mentioned in several books including Kevin McClure's The Evidence for Apparitions of the Virgin Mary and I think it's also in Michael P. Carroll's Cult of the Virgin Mary which goes at the whole thing from a psychological perspective. However, Francisco and Jacinta's mother confirmed in numerous interviews that the kids talked freely about their impending deaths. They were all excited about going to heaven. --Bluejay Young (talk) 14:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
There is some exaggeration in this statement but it has a strong element of truth. There are a number of interrogations and statements of the children on record, but none of the detailed predictions that we are familiar with can be glimpsed until the publication of Lucia’s memoirs after the outbreak of World War II. With one exception, the early documentation does not predict anything in advance. The one exception is a repeated insistence that the war would soon end. Since it went on for another year, this is a somewhat flawed prophecy. If we stretch things a bit, we might grant Lucia one other advance prediction. From the earliest accounts of the great miracle in October 1917, Lucia said that in the final appearance she saw the Lady dressed as Our Lady of Mount Carmel. In the first letter she wrote to the pope on December 2, 1940, Lucia stressed that the Lady had announced that if her requests were not heeded there would be the “annihilation of various nations” (The Intimate Life of Sister Lucia by Fr. Robert J. Fox and Fr. Antonio Martins, S.J., 2001, pp.260-261). According to the memoirs, this statement was made by the Lady at the July apparition. The word annihilate is quite strong and denotes something far worse than crushed or defeated. It, however, fits perfectly the power of the atom bomb which was first tested at Trinity Site on the feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel -- July 16, 1945.
For the most part, however, the Lady seems to have enjoined on the children an almost Markan secrecy. The record left by the parish priest of his interrogation of Lucia in August 1917 contains this exchange: “I asked her if the Lady had told her some secret. She said that she had, but that she was not going to tell it to me.” Later, Lucia is more diplomatic in obscuring the “secrets” confided to her by the Lady. In a written description of the apparitions dated January 5, 1922, she gives a bare-bones account of each appearance, but in describing the July apparition she omits any mention of Russia or visiting hell. She then adds: “Then she confided some words to us, saying, ‘Tell this to no one. You may only tell it to Francisco’” (Martins, Documents on Fatima, pp. 116 and 217). We learn later that the ‘secrets’ bore time stamps. The first two secrets could only be revealed in 1926, while the famous ‘third secret’ could only be revealed after 1960. Ironically, when Lucia did reveal these secrets to church authorities, they declined to make them public for a very long time. After a wait of thirteen years, the Bishop of Leiria only authorized Lucia to reveal what she knew about the apparitions two weeks after Hitler invaded Poland in 1939. Before this, Lucia was ordered by her confessor and the bishop not to say anything.
Does this strange behavior indicate that Lucia or the church authorities created a ‘mythology’ to exploit the direction that history had taken? Not really. Although most of her discussions with her confessor on this subject would have been in person, there is a letter extant dated May 29, 1930 in which she reiterates to him the need to approach the Holy Father regarding the “consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Jesus and Mary” in union with “the bishops of the Catholic world” in order to end the persecution there. She also asks for the establishment of the First Saturday devotion. Another letter from January 31, 1935, contains the plaintive request: “As for Russia, it seems to me that it will give great pleasure to Our Lord, if we work at getting the Holy Father to fulfill His wishes.” There are also letters to the confessor extant from this period showing that the Bishop of Leiria told him to do nothing with regard to these requests since “the time is not ripe” (The Intimate Life of Sister Lucia by Fr. Robert J. Fox and Fr. Antonio Martins, S.J., 2001, pp.253-255). We may anticipate that as the process for Lucia’s canonization proceeds, church archives will be scoured shedding further light on this matter.
What are we to make of all this? Well, Lucia is clearly not a self-promoter. She seems to be a very simple person and accepts the decision of the bishop “under obedience” even when it seems to run counter to what she believes to be the repeated requests of Our Lord and His Mother. We may also surmise that the bishop had no confidence in her various strange predictions and was only jarred into acting by external events that seemed to corroborate her words.
In the final analysis, the strongest argument in support of the authenticity of the apparitions is their peculiar timing. The more closely we examine this timing, the more we see unexpected resonances to historically verifiable details. For instance, Lenin’s trip back to Russia took place during Orthodox Holy Week; he concluded a deal with the Germans for funding his revolutionary activities in Russia on April 13, Holy (Good) Friday; and according to Russian historians probably came back to St. Petersburg from Finland to make the final preparations for the revolution on Friday, October 12, 1917 (see “Lenin, Fatima and Holy Week” available in the online EWTN document library). In the face of coincidence upon coincidence, we have to at least suspect that spiritual warfare of unprecedented ferocity surrounded what remains the most impressive Marian apparition of the 20th century. Toroid (talk) 04:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure many people have had their photograph taken. When it is done with a flash you will see a patch of bright light lingering in your vision. That's what most of us call Camera Flash. It's no different when you look at the Sun. Well it is slightly different in that you can blind yourself forever if you keep on looking too long. Therefore - and I'm sorry if this is original research, but it is blindingly obvious (forgive the pun) - why is this simple scientific explanation not referenced anywhere in this article? Looking at the sun causes you to get streaks of bright light in your field of vision - a dancing sun if you may. Zinc Belief (timestamp signature button doesn't work in the new skin, well done wikipedia for testing that thoroughly)
Water cooler discussions
User CliffC noted that this talk page seemed like a "forum" and I agree with that comment. Wiki-talk pages can not be used as forums. These discussions here seem like water-cooler talk and have not affected the article at all. Time to delete them, unless they contribute to teh article. History2007 (talk) 18:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was commenting only about this long-overlooked edit made 16 May 2007 by an anon who also vandalized the article the same day. After an admittedly quick look, I don't see anything else here that couldn't lead to improving the article at some point in the future, given good sourcing. --CliffC (talk) 23:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I am a little confused about this discussion of sources. In my contribution, I listed an original source for each quote. For example, if you consult the page in Werner Hahlweg’s Lenins Rückkehr nach Russland 1917 that I cited you can the original quote and the archive where Hahlweg obtained it. Hahlweg was a famous military historian and his work is still relied upon by historians. The translation is, however, my own. There are other works that obtain their source material from Hahlweg but are more popular in nature. One of these on the same subject in English is Michael Pearson’s the Sealed Train, which is available on the Internet. This work is quite readable and generally reliable. Likewise, the quotes from the archives on Fatima are contained in the two books that I cited by Fr. Martins. My citation was from an English translation of works originally written in Portuguese. I was trained as a historian and this is what people mean by sources in the profession. What do you regard as sources? Toroid (talk) 20:42, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- Generally in Wikipedia a contribution is to an article, not a talk page. Sources should generally be in the same language so other users can check that it was not a joke. People have made up jokes and inserted them in Wikipedia in the past, and other users generally check these things. Please see: WP:Reliable sources regarding sources and WP:Citing sources on how to cite them. And specially please see WP:OR which says that NOTHING original can come in. So if you happen disprove Newton's work, and you happen to be correct, you can not add it to English Wikipedia until some reputable physics journal in English publishes it. I know, I know, they say anyone can edit Wikipedia, but it does require getting used to. The heart of the mateial you had was good, but it needs to be Wikified and make its way to the article, before it can be called a contribution. Another issue is that your material is so long that it can not easily make it into the article. It needs a serious trim. And a 3rd issue is that it often involves a good deal of speculation. As soon as you add that some "non-believer" will claim that it is unsupported or subject to WP:OR and will trim it away. It is one thing to type into Wikipedia, it is another thing to have it survive more than 12 hours. Cheers and welcome to Wikipedia. History2007 (talk) 22:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- No worries, they were not my rules, Wiki-rules they are. But your material has good content, just needs clean up. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 23:31, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
A question Before the "event" at Fatima Any other "events" there?
Heard a vague refereance once to "other events" occuring at Fatima since Anciet time. This is I beleive in a T.V. show. The artilce gives a good represetation of the "events" that took place there in 1917. Yet,1. No rferance to any other "events" That happened before the Fatima "Miricle" perhaps taking a Natural course. The area could have marked electromagtic Volacnaic actvity?2. No photos that I can research ever show the "sun" whatever it was during all this? Even in that day 1917. Photos could be taken of the sun with the proper filters. Any pictures I wonder of the "SUN" object seen at Fatima? Thanks!JANUSROMA (talk) 00:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think it makes sense to open another Pandora's box on this page. I did a few searches, and any additional pre 1917 items are very flimsy at best, if not fall into the category of pure science fiction. Some people (myself firmly excluded) consider Fatima as fiction anyway. So the type of things you may be hinting at would be fringe on a fringe and is ruled out based on Wikipedia:Fringe theories policies. This page is about the apparitions as the major news media and references have followed, and as the Vatican and various popes referred to. Hence I believe it is best to let it be as is. History2007 (talk) 12:25, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
In the "Fate of the 3 children section," Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger orders here "cell sealed off." What is the definition of "cell?" I assume it means crypt, but wiki shows no definiton of cell. I suggest cell be replace with crypt, or crate a link to the correct disamgigous term for cell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProsperousOne (talk • contribs) 14:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's a reference to her room in the convent she lived in. YouWillBeAssimilated (talk) 18:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
"Fire in the Skies Event"
I did a little research and got some actual references to the solar storm of January 1938. And since Lucia was the one visionary to see it and be affected by it, thinking it confirmed the prophecy and so forth and writing those letters, I took it out of this article and put it in the article about Lucia Santos. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:02, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- There were actually a number of exceptionally strong solar storms during this period of solar maximum. These resulted in spectacular auroral displays far south of their usual limits. A perhaps even stronger auroral display occurred on the night of August 23, 1939, just days after Hitler succeeded in concluding a nonagression pact with Stalin. This agreement, of course, cleared the way for Hitler to attack Poland on September 1st, leading to the outbreak of WW II.
- In his 1969 Memoirs Albert Speer recalled the scene vividly:“In the course of the night we stood on the terrace of the Berghof with Hitler and marveled at a rare natural spectacle. Northern lights of unusual intensity threw red light on the legend-haunted Untersberg across the valley, while the sky above shimmered in all the colors of the rainbow. The last act of Götterdämmerung could not have been more effectively staged. The same red light bathed our faces and our hands. The display produced a curious pensive mood among us. Abruptly turning to one of his military adjutants, Hitler said, ‘Looks like a great deal of blood. This time we won’t bring it off without violence.’” (Albert Speer, Inside The Third Reich: Memoirs by Albert Speer, translated by Richard and Clara Winston (paperback edition 2009), p. 162.) Toroid (talk) 04:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)toroidToroid (talk) 04:17, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Secrets and prophecies
When does a secret become a prophesy? Also it seems that apparitions have stopped, now that we all have cellphones with cameras and small video cameras. It's so unfair.22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Cameras have been used at Marian apparitions since Lourdes and Fatima. Photographs and films were taken at Ghiaie, thousands of pictures were taken at Garabandal along with some films and at least one nationally televised apparition, and Zeitoun was televised. Also, don't confuse actual apparitions with reported ones. Plenty of people see her and don't say anything if she doesn't specifically tell them to. If there are fewer reports of apparitions today, you can blame our current Holy Father. He's ordered much stricter guidelines for approval when somebody does report seeing her. After Medjugorje, I don't blame him.
- I always thought a secret was a prophecy if it had a prediction of future events in it. The children at Fatima certainly seemed to think the "third secret" images depicted something that was really going to happen, even though it had all that esoteric symbolism. When it was disclosed it was no longer a secret, but it had been a prophecy all along. --Bluejay Young (talk) 22:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Several years ago, a saw an interview with Albert Speer on a cable TV channel in which Speer said he and Hitler and someone else saw the "fire in the skies event" and that Hitler interpreted this as God's approval Hitler's plans. Sister Lucia, viewing the sae event, knew it was the sign that another greater (than WW I) war would soon afflict mankind. Does anyone know which video that was and where I can find it? We should also remember Pope John Paul II was shot on a Fatima date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
The "Political aspects" paragraph is just pure POV and should be deleted. Catholics were persecuted by force in all Protestant countries. This was well before the French Revolution mentioned in the paragraph.
- Francisco was not a girl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:29, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Plenty of men have had the experience of Marian visitations. This is not even a point for discussion. --184.108.40.206 (talk) 20:34, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- The Politcal aspects partly come from Ruth Bloch. Ruth's work is supplemented by Mary Vincent's further work.
- I find your exegesis interesting and I'm inclined to agree with the idea of subjective interpretation, but most of us are not going to be around in the year 3000. --Bluejay Young (talk) 05:53, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Should I make a section regarding two letters Sr. Lucia wrote concerning the Fatima consecration?
You can find the letters here: Letters of Sr. Lucia Santos, OCD on the Consecration (EWTN)
- Yes. EWTN is an Ok reference, but if you have another WP:RS source as well would be good. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 09:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The 'Third Secret of Fatima' announces the coming of Messianic Reign
This is my first time here.
I would like to request a link to my page: 'Third Secret of Fatima, The Blessed Mother Has Announced The Coming of Messianic Reign!' copyright by me, Steven Merten 2010, www.ApocalypseAngel.com/fatima.html
Please visit: 'Third Secret of Fatima' The Blessed Mother Has announced the Coming of Messianic Reign. copyright by me, Steven Merten, 2010 www.ApocalypseAngel.com/fatima.html Please concider a link. Thank you, Angels of the Apocalypse Angels of the Apocalypse (talk) 04:57, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, no way. Just no way. There are thousands of blogs and per WP:External what you want can not be done. History2007 (talk) 08:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hi. I'm sorry, but you cannot use Wikipedia to promote your personal religious beliefs and predictions - either by asking for them to be added to the article, or by soapboxing here on the Talk page. I have removed the bulk of it, above, as it is entirely inappropriate to reproduce it here - to review it for possible inclusion, all we needed was a link. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Isn't this original research?
"Since no scientifically verifiable physical cause can be adduced to support the phenomenon of the sun, various explanations have been advanced to explain the descriptions given by numerous witnesses. A leading conjecture is a mass hallucination possibly stimulated by the religious fervor of the crowds expectantly waiting for a predicted sign. Another conjecture is a possible visual artifact caused by looking at the sun for a prolonged period. As noted by Professor Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven, looking directly at the Sun can cause phosphene visual artifacts and temporary partial blindness. He has proposed that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the colour changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells. Meessen observes that solar miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun. He cites the apparitions at Heroldsbach, Germany (1949) as an example, where exactly the same optical effects as at Fatima were witnessed by more than 10,000 people."
I didn't take it out yet, but I'd like to discuss it. It gets way off the article's subject and it's full of conjectures. Does "solar miracles" need its own article with references to pros and cons? --Bluejay Young (talk) 05:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- It is referenced and seems relevant to the article to me, discussing the sun miracle. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
- Meessen's documentation only covers post-Fatima solar (or "solar") events, because there weren't any prior to Fatima. People didn't start to expect solar miracles at Marian apparition sites until after Fatima. Now, of course, everybody wants to see them all the time and imagines them when they're not there. I'm going to have to dig into this and clear that up. What people were staring at at Fatima was the tree -- if they could even get that close --, because a rumor had spread that the promised miracle would be Mary revealing herself to the entire crowd. --Bluejay Young (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Fate of the three children
when I read that article, I came accross the following two sentences:
"Besides Lúcia's account, the testimony of Olímpia Marto (mother of the two younger children) and several others state that her children did not keep this information secret and ecstatically predicted their own deaths many times to her and to curious pilgrims."
This sentence refers to a statement of Senhora Marto (Jacinta's mother) in DeMarchi's book "True Story of Fatima". Senhora Marto said about Jacinta: "She said too, that she would take us all to heaven..." (http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm) This, however, can't serve as source for the assertion that Jacinta predicted her death, since "She said too, that she would take us all to heaven..." doesn't contain any information about when she would go to heaven. Or did I overlook something?
Furthermore I'd like to know when Senhora Marto (Jacinta's mother) made that statement. DeMarchi writes: "Senhora Marto has herself supplied an account of this meeting on the dusty road in front of their house at the tired end of the day" - does this mean that Senhora Marto supplied DeMarchi with that account (decades after the event), or did she talk about it earlier? (Sorry, but my english seems to be too bad for this :) )
I have also tried to search for a text passage where DeMarchi claims that Jacinta told "pilgrims" (besides her mother) about her death, but could only find the following: "Naturally, a story of such dimensions was not received indifferently in the crowded Marto home. It was enjoyed more than it was believed ...". Are there other passages?
I also couldn't find testimonies of "several others" about Jacinta predicting her death.
2nd sentence (right after the first one above):
"In fact, it was the first thing Jacinta told her mother when she spoke to her after the initial apparition."
Which is sourced by Lucia's first memoir from 1936 (http://fatima.ageofmary.com/overview/in-lucias-own-words/jacinta/). Again, I can only find the following statement, which - according to Lucia - was made by Jacinta the day after the first apparition: "I said that the Lady promised to take us to heaven." Which - again - isn't suitable as source for Jacinta predicting her death (again no further information about the exact circumstances of her death). Again: Did I overlook something?
Also the formulation "In fact, ..." is problematic in my opinion, since the source is Lucia Santo's memoir which she wrote in 1936, years after Jacinta had already died.
So what should be done about those two sentences? (I don't have any experience in writing articles in wikipedia)
What this article is quoting for the 2nd secret
As it stands now, it is mentioning "Pontificate of Pius XI". When did the pope's name get in there? These apparitions are in 1917, and Pius XI wasn't elected until 1922.
I marked it "dubious" as well. Other sources indicate that the "second secret" was not disclosed until after the Second World War had begun, which seriously undermines the credibility of the claim that it was first spoken in 1917. In 1917, the Pope was Benedict XV, and he continued as Pope until 1922. In 1917, no one knew who the next pope would be, let alone the name he would choose. If the secret, purporting to quote Mary, mentions the name of Pius XI, that alone, in my opinion, brands it as a hoax and a fraud. Also, "predicting" the war after it has already started does not impress me. Further, a "prediction" that "the war will end soon" and that there will be another one is not that impressive. Most wars do end eventually, and sadly, there always seems to be another one.John Paul Parks (talk) 15:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- What is quoted there is what Lucia wrote. It's not dubious that she said Pius XI, what's dubious is the idea that Mary told her in 1917 it was going to be him. Discussions as to whether or not it's a fraud should be quoted from other sources and put underneath her words. If you want to put in the article that the war prediction stuff is questionable you have to quote sources for that also. --Bluejay Young (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Orphaned references in Our Lady of Fátima
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Our Lady of Fátima's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Burke850":
- From Our Lady of Lourdes: Burke, Raymond L.; et al. (2008). Mariology: A Guide for Priests, Deacons, Seminarians, and Consecrated Persons ISBN 978-1-57918-355-4 pages 850-868
- From Roman Catholic Mariology: Mark Miravalle in Mariology: A Guide for Priests, Deacons, seminarians, and Consecrated Persons ISBN 1-57918-355-7, 2008 edited by M. Miravalle, page 850
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:13, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
The introduction is confused and confusing: "Our Lady of Fatima is the title based on apparitions to three shepherd children at Fátima, Portugal, on the thirteenth day of six consecutive months in 1917, beginning on May 13". This does not read like standard English, and I am not sure what "the title based on apparitions" is even supposed to mean. Can someone please explain this, and translate it into English.Royalcourtier (talk) 01:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
"The apparition is also referred to as Our Lady of the Rosary"
two points about this statement. First, source it please, because I have never heard it before. The closest is that Lucie said that the person who appeared to her said "I am the lady of the Rosary". Second, the Wiki article on Marian apparitions says "A Marian apparition is a supernatural appearance by the Blessed Virgin Mary". Thus an apparition is an event, not a person. I appreciate that this article has to try very hard to phrase things in a neutral way; can this be rewritten? Perhaps (presuming it is sourced and so remains) as "Another title given to the Virgin Mary as a result of this apparition is Our Lady ...." --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:14, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
date of liturgical commemoration
I tried to add 'commemoration May 13' to the template on the side but couldn't do it. I've added it to the text but if anyone can move it to the side, go ahead/ --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)